Thundercat, Go? Joyce Traded to Tampa
All the anxiety over the Detroit Tigers trading Matt Joyce can now be officially retired. Questioning whether or not he'll be included in a deal to Seattle for J.J. Putz is now a moot point. Why's that, you ask? I'll let FOX Sports' Ed Price explain:
The Detroit Tigers are set to acquire right-hander Edwin Jackson from the Tampa Bay Rays for outfielder Matt Joyce, according to a major-league source.
Tampa Bay, with David Price on the way, had a surplus of starting pitching. Jackson, 25, was 14-11 this year with a 4.25 ERA.
In exchange the Rays get a 24-year-old, left-handed-hitting corner outfielder who hit 12 homers in 242 at-bats.
This past season, Jackson started 31 games for the American League champion Rays, finishing with a 14-11 record, 4.42 ERA, and 108 strikeouts (vs. 77 walks) in 183.3 innings. He's got good stuff, throwing in the mid-90s, and can mix that up with a slider and change-up. Jackson sounds like just the type of starting pitcher the Tigers could use next season.
But if Tampa dealt him because they had "a surplus of starting pitching," what exactly is Detroit faced with now? We could chuckle and say that the Tigers only really have three starters for next season (and that's if Jeremy Bonderman comes back healthy), but unless they do something with Dontrelle Willis and Nate Robertson, the Tigers have six guys bidding to be in the 2009 rotation. Seven, if you count Zach Miner (and I would like to).
I'm still trying to figure out what I think about this deal. I don't like giving up Joyce. I liked what I saw from him this season - a decent left-handed bat with power, with good defense in both left and right field - and think he would've helped the Tigers quite a bit next year. And do you see many young position players walking through the door at Comerica Park these days?
Plus, you know, Joyce rescues kittens. Who doesn't like that? I didn't want to see him go in a deal for Putz - and that move would fill a crying need on the roster - so that probably means I'm not on board with him being traded for Jackson.
What I'll tell myself as I sign off for the night, however, is that maybe this trade won't ultimately be judged by itself. Could this be the precursor to another move? Might Jackson be flipped in another deal? Did Dave Dombrowski do this, knowing he has something in the works for one of his other starting pitchers? Then this trade might make sense to me. Right now, however, it doesn't quite smell right.
(Hat tips to ThaWalrus9 and Blake from The Spot Starters for elbowing me awake with this news)

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In my head I know this is a good deal. In my heart I hate it. I’m getting sick of following guys through the minors only to see them traded in the offseason. I also really liked Matt Joyce because, well, he’s pretty good.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this puts Robertson on the chopping block. He has more value than Willis if The Tigers were looking to trade him for relief.
It now also seems that Thames’s job is secure.
My only question is who the hell plays corner OF when Guillen or Ordonez inevitably get injured. The answer to that question is not Clete Thomas.
by MacRae on Dec 10, 2008 10:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Though on the bright side at least 3 prospects won’t be packaged for one year of Putz.
Can we sign John Smoltz so this isn’t the most depressing offseason ever?
by MacRae on Dec 10, 2008 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thundercat!
The “Thundercat” nickname doesn’t apply if Joyce is playing for the Rays. And I hate seeing a good nickname go to waste.
by Ian Casselberry on Dec 10, 2008 10:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I love this deal
Matt Joyce is a nice outfielder, but frankly, 24 year old lefty starting pitcher with good stuff who can throw in the mid 90’s don’t grow on tree.
by ThaWalrus9 on Dec 10, 2008 10:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
He’s a righty. And he’ll be 25.
That last fact is nitpicky, he’s still young and cheap.
by MacRae on Dec 10, 2008 10:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you're correct
don’t know what I was thinking.
by ThaWalrus9 on Dec 10, 2008 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Robertson
Could be a good closer…so could Willis…
Bear with me. If Detroit’s figuring on Verlander, Galaragga, and Bonderman, and now add Jackson, to the rotation, we can pretty much asume that these four will not be considered for the bullpen. We also know Miner can’t handle relief duties – so why not see what Willis or Robertson can do in the closer role with the $10 million dollar arms?
by Oost on Dec 10, 2008 11:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Don't find many lefty closers
Why that is, I am not sure but there isn’t many out there.
Water covers 70% of the earth, Curtis Granderson covers the rest!!
by BigReg on Dec 11, 2008 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Clevlen
Does this mean a possible spot for Brent opens up with Clete on the DL to start the year?
by Oost on Dec 10, 2008 11:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Jackson has been a base on balls machine...
Sounds like he’ll fit right in with the rest of the Tigers’ staff. His career 1.632 WHIP (1.505 in ‘08) does not get me excited. Maybe I’m overvaluing Joyce, but trading one of your very few potentially good LH bats for another project pitcher is a bit of a head scratcher. Rick Knapp is going to have his hands full.
One more thing…Who’s going to close?!
waynefontes.com
by BigAl on Dec 10, 2008 11:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think I pretty much agree with that sentiment but a better pitcher would have cost more in prospects or money, both of which we don’t really have. And keep in mind that as average as Jackson was last year he was better than all of our pitchers save for Galarraga. Sobering isn’t it?
I have to assume that this means that Robertson or Miner is going to get shipped out for a closer. Would Houston bite for Valverde? Baltimore for Sherril? Texas for Wilson or Francisco?
by MacRae on Dec 10, 2008 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent stuff but control problem?
Love that he is only 25 and DD lovers those guys that throw 96 mph plus. Look like decent slider. I think there is more moves to come. I heard he was rush to MLB so maybe Bondo and him will bond.
by Barry2 on Dec 10, 2008 11:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Guess you can conclude a few things from this...
1. Maggs is not going anywhere. We are not putting Larish or Thames in Right Field part time.
2. Either Nate or Train is off to the bullpen full time or is on the next bus out like Ian was saying. Can’t have both of them, plus Jackson, plus our other 3 (or Miner). Unless, and this is scary, this move is because Bondo is not healing.
3. We are no closer to our second most pressing need getting filled (catcher was our biggest problem). No closer. And only Fuentes or Hoffman left. Fuentes is pricey and Hoffman is 100. Ouch.
I hope DD has something else in mind.
by rook34 on Dec 10, 2008 11:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Let's not go overvaluing Matt Joyce here.
I liked him too, but the fact is he was no better than the 4th outfielder this season. In his prime, he’s probably a .280, 25 HR guy.
That’s a good outfielder no doubt, but recall that all three Tigers outfielders (Guillen, Ordonez, Granderson) are locked up through 2011 or later (Grandy until 2013). That assumes Magglio’s option vests this year which it almost cetainly will.
Meanwhile, the Tigers starting pitching is a major problem. They can’t rely on anything from Dontrelle. Bondo is also iffy coming back from injury. Robertson has the worst ERA in baseball last year, they’d really be better off not starting him.
Edwin Jackson isn’t perfect, but he’s still young, he’s shown some improvement, and he has the stuff. Young pitching is the most precious commodity in baseball and therefore, I like the move.
by ThaWalrus9 on Dec 10, 2008 11:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Alright, I'm sold
I was sad about losing Joyce but you make good points here.
Jackson’s WHIP is terrifying though, but I guess it can’t be worse than Nate and D-Train’s ERAs..
by explosivo2k2 on Dec 10, 2008 11:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Reality is that the Tigers could afford to give up an outfielder, especially with Clete and Wilkin Ramirez still around.
Edwin’s WHIP is really scary, I agree, but he seems to have made progress each of his 3 years in Tampa. He was a stud prospect who was rushed to the majors way too young. That stunted his growth and it seems like it took the move to Tampa for him to start figuring things out.
Lastly let me point out that he’s now the youngest starting pitcher in the rotation. He’s actually younger than Verlander, Bonderman, and Galarraga. I think it was a risk worth taking.
by ThaWalrus9 on Dec 10, 2008 11:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t get on board with the assessment that we could afford this.
Thomas is a 4th OF or a starting CF on a second division team. His power doesn’t come close to matching Joyce’s bat.
Wilkin has loads of potential but is right handed and hasn’t hit above AA.
With Joyce in Tampa The Tigers now have zero outfielders who could take over in an everday fashion if Guillen or Ordonez went down with a serious injury. There’s certainly every possibility that by they time they vacate after three seasons there will be a ready prospect on the farm (Espinoza would be my favorite at this point) but we’re taking our chances unless things start to click for Clevlen and Wilkin.
by MacRae on Dec 11, 2008 12:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Depth is nice, but it can be found elsewhere
You could platoon Thames and Clete out there in the event of injury. No one seems to remember that Ryan Raburn is still on this team, and I think he deserves a look somewhere as well. Hell, you could even stick Sheff out there occasionally. Clevlen or Timo Perez are other options. Additionally, there are any number of 4th outfielder types who could be had cheaply out of the free agent pool.
The real place where the Tigers lack depth is in the starting rotation. The fact is that, before this trade, two of Robertson, Willis, Miner were going to be in the rotation. Any injuries in the rotation and all three are in there. Jackson gives them another live arm to throw into the mix.
by ThaWalrus9 on Dec 11, 2008 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, as far as immediate upgrade is concerned (barring unforseen injury) the trade is fine. I got a little longwinded at the end there but my only real point is that Thomas and Ramirez are not the caliber of prospect that Joyce is. Wilkin may be soon, but he isn’t the kind of ready that Joyce is.
The Rays are the team that dealt from true strength. Jackson had to move because David Flippin’ Price needed a spot in the rotation.
by MacRae on Dec 11, 2008 12:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, Joyce is a fine prospect
The bottom line is, Matt Joyce was just blocked. I wish there was a spot on the Tigers for him. It was actually a pretty shocking realization for me today that the Tigers outfield is full for the next three years. Guillen, Granderson, and Ordonez are all better hitters than Joyce, so it was going to be a fight for him to find at bats.
This year, I think the Tigers don’t take much of a step down. I think Ryan Raburn and Clete Thomas get Joyce’s at bats. I personally think Raburn might be as good a player as Joyce is. Later on in the year, maybe Wilkin is ready.
The step down from Joyce to Clete/Raburn is a lot less than the step down from Edwin to Chris Lambert.
by ThaWalrus9 on Dec 11, 2008 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't get me wrong though
I understand the moves the Tigers have made this offseason (Laird, Everett, Edwin), but I’m not WILD about any of them. DD has put himself in a tough spot this offseason, and he’s doing a decent job dealing with it, but I wish different roster decisions had been made leading into this year (resigning Dontrelle, to cite one example).
by ThaWalrus9 on Dec 11, 2008 12:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Joyce can hit the peak that you mention, one that most reports pretty much agree on and his ‘07 season suggests he could attain, he’d annually be worth between 6-7 wins.
If Jackson continues at the rate he’s at, he’ll annually be worth about 3.
So in the long term this is a gamble. The Tigers may have traded away Jim Edmonds for, well…Edwin Jackson. The reverse of that is seeing Jackson do an Ervin Santana-type comeback, something I’m not really banking on.
In the short term this is a good move. We address an immediate need by trading a player who was not a neccessary piece for 2009. Right now this trade is a push. No one team won out more than the other though by this time next year we’ll know for sure.
by MacRae on Dec 11, 2008 12:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Another name that hasn’t been mentioned among Tigers outfield prospects is Casper Wells. Bats righty, but can apparently play all three outfield positions and first base. he also showed pretty good power this year (17 homers). But obviously, he hasn’t proven he’s major league ready yet.
by Ian Casselberry on Dec 11, 2008 12:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The kittens are doomed!!!
We just traded a guy who could very well play left or right field in the future for another pitcher with control issues. DD better have some big plans, or know something we don’t. I didn’t want Joyce included in the Putz deal, let alone a trade for someone the Rays feel is expendable (I don’t care if the Rays made the World Series last year, they’ll still be the 65-win season Devil Rays in my mind for the next 10 years). I feel like DD is getting impatient and/or bored in Vegas and just wanted to make something happen.
by handsomerob1 on Dec 11, 2008 12:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ehhh...
I LOVED Joyce, but if he’s gone, that means more time for Clete, and the Cult’s still here. I like Thomas better. He doesn’t have the same pop that Kitty does, but he is far more patient at the plate and takes more walks, and I like that.
GO BLUE
by Tony K on Dec 11, 2008 10:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

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