Game 26: Angels (15-10) at Tigers (11-14)
Los Angeles Angels at Detroit Tigers, Apr 27, 2008 8:05 PM EDT
Jered Weaver (1-3, 4.50) vs.
Justin Verlander (1-3, 5.93)
Apologies for the buzzer-beating Game Thread. Somebody set his nap alarm for 7:00 a.m. instead of p.m. Did I really just almost sleep through the start of this game? Maybe I subconsciously wanted to avoid this because I'm not very excited about the Detroit Tigers playing on ESPN Sunday Night Baseball. For whatever reason, playing under the watch of Jon Miller and Joe Morgan doesn't work for them very well. Or maybe you've managed to erase their last two appearances from your memory.
In two starts against the Tigers, Jered Weaver and his Prince Valiant haircut have gotten spanked like the little brother of a guy they once traded. Weaver has a 1-1 record against Detroit, but has a 14.14 ERA over just seven innings (13 runs, 18 hits) to show for the experience.
Meanwhile, Justin Verlander finally won his first start of the season last time out. Okay, it was against the Texas Rangers, and you say they're not very good right now. But hey, they also just took two of three from the Twins. So maybe the Tigers really were that good against the Rangers. Verlander gave up just one run and six hits over six innings, which is the kind of effort we prefer to see from the ace.
As Peter posted in the comments of the last post, Carlos Guillen is indeed playing tonight, batting sixth and playing third base. So after a couple of false starts, the Tigers finally get to put their full lineup on the field tonight.
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Starting Lineups
LA ANGELS
1. Chone Figgins, 3B
2. Gary Matthews, Jr, LF
3. Vladimir Guerrero, RF
4. Casey Kotchman, 1B
5. Torii Hunter, CF (boy, that just doesn’t look right)
6. Garret Anderson, DH
7. Maicer Izturis, 2B
8. Mike Napoli, C
9. Erick Aybar, SS
DETROIT (let’s hope I can cut-and-paste this one in for a few games)
1. Curtis Granderson, CF
2. Placido Polanco, 2B
3. Gary Sheffield, DH
4. Magglio Ordonez, RF
5. Miguel Cabrera, 1B
6. Carlos Guillen, 3B
7. Edgar Renteria, SS
8. Ivan Rodriguez, C
9. Jacque Jones, LF
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 7:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't suppose...
... anyone wants to read a Q&A with Mike Scioscia? I meant to include that as a Short Hop in this post.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7431
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tigers are good therapy for Pistons fans right now.
I’m just about frickin’ done with this Pistons team. Man, are they frustrating.
by Grant E. on Apr 27, 2008 8:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it
Is it the curse of Larry Brown? How are the Pistons not pounding that team?
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sentence I just wrote read the other way around two weeks ago.
by Grant E. on Apr 27, 2008 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It might be the Detroit Gods of Sports Justice
Can two teams do well at the same time?
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The new-look defense
It isn’t going to matter if Verlander just strikes everyone out. Good start for him.
by Grant E. on Apr 27, 2008 8:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nasty!
Nice punchout of Guerrero! Verlander looked sharp that first inning.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I miss Mario and Rod already
Could Joe Morgan be more inane?
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 8:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Game Thread
Thanks for getting it up, Ian
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 8:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's what she said?
Even if it’s at my expense, I can’t resist.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Verlander
Seems to be packing some heat tonight.
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 8:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Rays???
You mean Tampa Bay changed their name.
Hmmmm…
That is the 1st time I heard about that….. since last sunday night and the sunday night before that and the sunday night….
Can’t ESPN find some high school anouncers to do their games for them,
by miggy4mvp on Apr 27, 2008 8:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I hear they’re in first place in the NL East.
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
James Shields
Pitched a great game today. Complete game, seven strikeouts vs. the Red Sox.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Big Inning
Right here would be splendid.
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 8:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
K-Zone
I love how Joe Morgan talks about K-Zone like it’s a person. Maybe they hang out on the road together.
“I’ll have the turkey club, and K-Zone will have a cheeseburger.”
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone else
just a tad bit weird out seeing a Weaver on the mound in Detroit?
I mean, not really weirded out, but a little.
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 8:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What I want to see
Weaver yelling into his glove after giving up a big home run, just like big brother.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't stand either of the Weavers
they act like they are God’s gift to baseball. Someone needs to bitch slap the both of them
by miggy4mvp on Apr 27, 2008 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man oh man
When Peter Gammons lays it out there, blow by blow, it really sounds like the Tigers sucked over first three weeks of the season…
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Looks like someone kicked the Pistons in the ass at halftime
Up by 7 all of the sudden.
by Grant E. on Apr 27, 2008 8:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the update
I keep forgetting to switch over.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
K-Zone thinks he should be announcing Sunday Night Baseball
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
K-Zone says that was a great throw by Pudge to 2nd base
Nailing Figgins is a nice notch on the gunbelt.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does K Zone say about the solution to global warming?
by miggy4mvp on Apr 27, 2008 8:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
K-Zone says global warming is high
Joe Morgan leaves a big carbon footprint with hot air emissions.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I can figure
Is that ESPN assumes that the people who watch Sunday night baseball know NOTHING about the game.
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 8:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You're probably right
They’re condescending catering to a more “general” audience.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
K-Zone says Jacque Jones was safe
K-Zone also thinks this joke could get old by the end of the night.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 8:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did Joe Morgan just start an argument with himself?
First he explained why Jones was out, than he said that he thought that Jones was safe then he declared Jones out again. Lord, I hate the man.
by Grant E. on Apr 27, 2008 8:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Playing Sunday Night Baseball is kind of like Monday Night Football. Both get more exposure than normal games and both have AWFUL commentary.
Go Tigers
by Tony K on Apr 27, 2008 9:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well you know everyone slides head first when they steal second
that way they can’t go to third if the ball get thrown into the out field. joe sure makes sense to me.
by miggy4mvp on Apr 27, 2008 9:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Even
Even KZone thought that Joe Morgan feature on Sheffield/Ordonez/Cabrera was total incomprehensible nonsense
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 9:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
NOOOOO WAYYYYYY...
...Granderson was out there.
Go Tigers
by Tony K on Apr 27, 2008 9:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sure looked like his hand beat the throw back to the bag
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunno
Watched it three times in slo-mo and I think he was out. :(
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What was that crap about Tom Petty's CD?
POP?
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 9:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mudcrutch
I’m excited about that CD.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard the first single the other day
“Scare Easy”—It’s pretty good.
by Grant E. on Apr 27, 2008 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't get me wrong
I’m a big Petty fan. It’s just the way he tried to be “cool” when he talked about it.
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the?
Boy, that ball really, really fooled Maggs
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 9:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No kidding
The wind really bit him there.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just about hurled my clicker across the room….
Go Tigers
by Tony K on Apr 27, 2008 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder
If Tom Petty would do a song about K-zone.
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 9:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Only if...
K-Zone says Tom Petty can.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
News flash!
Sheffield looks really bad at the plate.
by bradm on Apr 27, 2008 9:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tough call
Does Sheff get better by playing and getting his swing back? Or by shutting it down for a while?
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
That depends on whether his shoulder needs more work or more rest.
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know, Toto
Maybe you should come with me to the Emerald City and we can ask the great K-zone
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think shutting him down is an option. I get the impression rest isn’t going to help the shoulder pain.
by bradm on Apr 27, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm wondering.....
if his shoulder issues are chronic and he’s just going to have to learn to deal with it?
by Brian8603 on Apr 27, 2008 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't look like they're going away
The only way that shoulder may ever feel right again is for him to just stop swinging a baseball bat.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers K-Zone
Go Tigers
by Tony K on Apr 27, 2008 9:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We should trade Sheff for a good middle reliever.
Go Tigers
by Tony K on Apr 27, 2008 9:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
seriously
obviously, no one is going to trade for Sheff until he proves he’s healthy. Besides, I think we should hang onto Sheff, I think the bullpen will come together. It’s already gone from disaster (first week and a half) to mediocre (since then)
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Buchholz
Did you see Aki Iwamura flip his bat after hitting a home run off him yesterday? Hilarious!
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nasty!
Nice pitch to freeze Guillen there. Damn.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is Cleveland...
....12-13 or 12-14?
Go Tigers
by Tony K on Apr 27, 2008 9:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That Grand Theft Auto IV...
looks pretty bad-ass.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Open season on umpires?
They’re getting beat up the last two nights.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
By the way
Is Danley alright? I haven’t seen an update on him.
by Grant E. on Apr 27, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Released from the hospital
Maybe a concussion? Sounds okay, though who knows when he’ll be back at work.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DEEEEEEtroit BASKETbaaaaal!
You try to go watch a Tigers game in this state(by this state, I mean MI, not my beloved Hoosier state and all you can get is some little tv in the corner because the Pistons are on doing their best Pacers imitation!
by Zappatista on Apr 27, 2008 9:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm calling BS Joe
Who doesn’t give Mike Scioscia credit for being one of the best managers in baseball? He won manager of the year in 2002 for God’s sake!
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 9:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ah, Charlie
I love to hear him sell hot dogs.
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 9:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Totally plausible trade idea.
Maybe we can package Jacque Jones and Gary Sheffield for Brandon Webb and Dan Haren.
by bradm on Apr 27, 2008 9:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know...
I’d like the D-Backs to throw in a catcher.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best sports city in the country?
You bet it is. Can any other city hold a candle to Detroit?
by bradm on Apr 27, 2008 9:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
from a success standpoint
I’d say Boston has Detroit beat at the moment…
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm...
interference?
http://www.fromthecopa.blogspot.com/
by rock n rye on Apr 27, 2008 9:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ouch
That was a great example of the Angels’ aggressiveness on the basepaths.
Though if Leyland’s arguing that Matthews interfered with Guillen, I’m totally with him.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Angels lead the league in intangibles, according to Joe Morgan.
by bradm on Apr 27, 2008 9:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also...
I’m happy to report I’ve yet to call the Angels the “Angles” tonight.
by bradm on Apr 27, 2008 9:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Move Carlos to DH
And put Brandon back at 3rd.
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 9:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
Even though Inge would not have made that play, either, I’m totally on board with that idea.
Gratuitious blog pimping
I even blogged about it yesterday.
by bradm on Apr 27, 2008 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously
when is the last itme the tigers won on sunday night baseball? I’m beginning to hate it
by MackAveKurt on Apr 27, 2008 9:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
This just never works well for the Tigers.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So how do we feel about these Angels?
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 10:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Angels
I’ll tell you this – I don’t think Weaver is anywhere near as good as this game is going for him tonight.
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jaque "Strap" Jones
Did you see that throw! Pink slip Jones, bring back Cletus alreeghtus alrightus. Retire Sheffield so Guillen can DH and Inge can play 3rd, and we will be a much better team….
by Zappatista on Apr 27, 2008 10:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That throw
If a baserunner was running into short left field, Jones would’ve nailed him.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tiger batters are like a good prom date
They go down easy.
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 10:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No were near
the mendosa line….pathetic.
by Zappatista on Apr 27, 2008 10:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
this is the first game i've been able to watch since wednesday
Can I have wednesday back?
by MackAveKurt on Apr 27, 2008 10:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm sick of watching
Switched over to the XM
by pfuhrmeister on Apr 27, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously
How long can Shef play like this and it be okay?
by Zappatista on Apr 27, 2008 10:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
True
But remember that he was hitting .160 with 1 HR and 6 RBI on April 27th of last year. He wasn’t even trying to come back from shoulder surgery last year either. I still think he’ll go on a tear at some point, like he did last year.
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
for the sake of the team, Sheff has to sit.
by MackAveKurt on Apr 27, 2008 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Did you guys see the graphic ESPN showed with the ERAs of the Tigers’ starters. Bondo was the only one under 5. Sheff will be fine, maybe he should be moved down in the lineup, but not out of it. Gary Sheffield is a Hall of Famer, let’s not throw dirt on him so quickly.
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The better question
Is who should the Tigers think about pulling out of the rotation in favor of Galarraga? I don’t think they necessarily should do that yet, but Rogers and Robertson both have ERA’s near 7.
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's hurting, he's aging, he's not hitting
maybe he needs to be on the DL but right now, he’s costing the Tigers a defensive upgrade and he’s contributing no offense from the 3 spot.
by MackAveKurt on Apr 27, 2008 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and what does the Tigers ERA have to do with Sheff?
The only way they’re linked is that the defense is worse with sheff at DH. Otherwise, those aren’t even connected.
by MackAveKurt on Apr 27, 2008 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa...
Not disputing he is a hall of famer, but how long can he continue to play horribly….I believe he is 0-15 with RISP. The games we are losing now, could/will come back to haunt us. I love Shef, but c’mon….
by Zappatista on Apr 27, 2008 10:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Again
He hit this poorly last April. They’ve scored zero runs tonight, it’s not all on Sheff. I just don’t think it’s fair to point to him alone. They’re second in the AL in scoring with him struggling, so I don’t think their problem is run scoring. The point about the Tigers ERA is that it’s the PITCHING that has been dragging them down. Case in point, as good as Verlander looked tonight, he still ended up giving up 6 runs.
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 10:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
All that being said...
Don’t get me wrong. Personally, I would’ve preferred the Tigers had put Sheff on the DL and then sent him on a rehab assignment until he got things sorted out. I just think their pitching has been a bigger culprit so far.
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well at least it won't be a shitout
http://www.fromthecopa.blogspot.com/
by rock n rye on Apr 27, 2008 10:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
shut out....freudian slip
http://www.fromthecopa.blogspot.com/
by rock n rye on Apr 27, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point taken, BUT
We don’t have pitchers lying around, sans Galaraga, that can play. We have others who can swing the bat. Clete played well while up. Inge is playing pretty well. I just don’t see the value that Shef is bringing right now.
The pitching woes would take much longer to discuss!
by Zappatista on Apr 27, 2008 10:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
To answer your original question
(How long can Sheff keep playing like this and it be Ok?) The Tigers go to New York and Minnesota after this. If Sheff is still struggling this badly, they really should think about DLing him or SOMETHING.
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jacque Jones
K to end the inning? or will he not suck
http://www.fromthecopa.blogspot.com/
by rock n rye on Apr 27, 2008 10:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A foul pop-up
I think that qualifies as suckage.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here we go
Jacque STRAP….
there it is….per usual…
by Zappatista on Apr 27, 2008 10:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I know it's a leftie/rightie platoon
and I know Marcus has struggled too. But I am surprised how little we’ve seen of Thames in left so far.
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On a more happy note
I think we all heard about Cruceta’s first outing in Toledo (3 IP, 0 hits, 1 BB, 6 Ks). Not sure if everyone saw that his second outing was nearly as good (2 IP, 1 hit, 1 BB, 1 ER, 4 Ks). The bullpen might be looking better soon enough…
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 10:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would've posted on that...
If a nap didn’t seem like a much higher priority late this afternoon. Thanks for mentioning that, Matt.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No prob
Looks like they’ve got him pitching every third day, which would mean his third outing should be tomorrow. If he does well again, does he get the call?
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fear the Crucetaean!!!!
http://www.fromthecopa.blogspot.com/
by rock n rye on Apr 27, 2008 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it me?
This is the first GameThread I’ve been able to participate in for almost two weeks…
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 10:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
got to go to bed on that note
GRILLI!!!! Watch out!..
and no, not you
by Zappatista on Apr 27, 2008 10:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sunday Night Baseball
Here’s your answer:
blank”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESPN_Sunday_Night_Baseball_results(1990-present)
Looks like the Tigers went 2-3 on Sunday Night baseball last year and 0-1 in 2006.
Gotta love Wikipedia
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 11:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Didn't quite copy the URl right
This should work
by ThaWalrus9 on Apr 27, 2008 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could go for...
More Heidi Klum. Keep playing that Volkswagen ad.
And might as well include that Taco Bell commercial with the bacon, too.
by Ian Casselberry on Apr 27, 2008 11:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is Cabrera using a new bat? Means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but it has piqued my curiosity.
by bradm on Apr 27, 2008 11:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
on the bright side
it’s not like the Tigers just dropped a series to a basemnet dweller. The Angels just came off of a series win in Boston. Minus the 6th inning of tonight’s game, the Tigers played very well against a good team. That’s all you can ask for after the first two weeks of the season.
http://www.fromthecopa.blogspot.com/
by rock n rye on Apr 27, 2008 11:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Detroit's Starting Pitching
The Tigers will only go as far as there starting pitching will take them.
by justin3007 on Apr 29, 2008 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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