Carlos Guillen's Complaining Pays Off... For Now
First, Carlos Guillen let it be known that he wants to be an everyday player next year.
According to him, being taken out of games in late innings for defensive replacements or pinch-runners didn't allow him to prove he was fully healthy. And apparently, Guillen told Jim Leyland as much after the final game of the season versus the Twins.
Yet can Leyland be entirely blamed for not trusting Guillen's health? Guillen played in only 81 games this year, missing almost three months of the season due to a shoulder injury. And even when Guillen was activated in late July, that shoulder was still problematic enough to prevent him from playing left field or batting right-handed, which kept him out of the lineup whenever the Tigers faced a lefty pitcher.
It took 17 games before Guillen saw the field again, when he got a start at first base. In another six games, he finally started in left field, the position he was expected to play this season. It took 39 games before he was able to bat right-handed. So there was plenty of opportunity for Leyland to get used to playing someone else.
When told of Guillen's comments, Leyland said that he'd love to see him play everyday too. But staying healthy and producing was a part of that.
To stick up for himself, Guillen mentions that he's played several different positions over the past couple of years, moving from shortstop to first base, then to third base, and then to left field. In fairness to him, he's been moved around quite a bit and did so willingly. However, it's also worth pointing out that those position changes were made out of necessity, as Guillen showed diminished range at shortstop and third, and had problems with his footwork at first base.
Apparently frustrated that he'll be pushed into the same role in 2010 that he played in 2009 (sharing the left field and designated hitter spots), Guillen told Jason Beck over the weekend that he didn't want to play left field next season.
"I don't want to play left field," Guillen told MLB.com on Sunday, "because it's going to be the same stuff this year, the same excuses. He doesn't have confidence in me [in left field]."
The "excuses" Guillen refers to are presumably taking him out of the game for defensive or pinch-running purposes. But perhaps what Guillen seeks most is some respect from his manager for changing positions to help the team, moves which Guillen seems to think are behind many of his recent injuries.
"I never asked to change positions," Guillen said Sunday. "I decided to play a different position [when asked]. I want to win. But I don't want to play [left field] when [Leyland] uses it as an excuse. ...
"I did the best I can. I made the move for the team. When I was playing shortstop, I stayed healthy."
Guillen played in 153 and 151 games in 2006 and 2007, when he was the Tigers' full-time shortstop. Yet he also had league-leading error totals (first in '06, second in '07) at that position in those seasons. No, errors don't tell the complete story of a player's defensive abilities. But in Guillen's case, the majority of those errors were fielding, not throwing mistakes, which would seem to indicate he was having difficulties at shortstop. (UZR/150 doesn't look too kindly upon him, either.)
So is that the root of Guillen's dissatisfaction here? Does he want to move back to shortstop? Beck asked Guillen which position he'd like to play next season.
"Obviously, I can't play first base," Guillen said. "Obviously, [Leyland] doesn't want me at shortstop. He doesn't want me at third base."
What about left field?
"Ok, if they let me play, maybe," Guillen said. "But I don't want to play the way they played me [this year]."
And now, maybe it's becoming clearer why Leyland smokes so much. A supposed leader on his ballclub is now a high-maintenance complainer.
To make sure this issue didn't linger throughout the winter and into Spring Training, and to prevent continued discussions through the media, Leyland contacted Guillen in Venezuela, and apparently there's now an understanding between the two. Guillen will be the Tigers' full-time left fielder next season, according to Leyland.
"Carlos Guillen is our left fielder," Leyland told MLB.com. "He's our everyday left fielder, and hopefully he'll be productive. If he's looking for reassurance, we want him to play every day."
It's just like the old saying goes: The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
But is that really the best thing for the Detroit Tigers in 2010? Leyland gave himself some wiggle room with that quote, basically saying it's Guillen's job to lose. Meanwhile, he's got Ryan Raburn and his .291/.359/.533 from this season waiting, if Guillen can't stay healthy. (Raburn should be in left field every time Detroit faces a left-handed pitcher, anyway. Maybe Guillen moves over to DH in those match-ups - that is, if it's okay with him.)
After reading all this, I can't help but think about the last player who complained about his role, one which became increasingly limited due to diminishing skills and creakiness in his body. Hmm, whatever happened to that guy... ?
Unfortunately, the Tigers face a much more expensive decision with Guillen than they did with Gary Sheffield. Detroit had to eat $14 million when they released Sheffield at the end of March. But Guillen is still owed $26 million over the remaining two years of his contract (the market value of which was determined by Guillen playing shortstop, by the way).
So is this the end of Guillen's belly-aching or will there be more of this squawking to come if and when his health prevents him from seeing the field regularly?
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Comments
i love carlos as a hitter.
But at this point in his career, he is a dh. His body will not allow him to contribute defensively at an acceptable level. His pride apparently isn’t recognizing that. He was so bad at short that dd went and got renteria, who wasn’t exacly Mark Belanger. This is a horrible sign. Leyland and DD seem to be afraid of Carlos for some reason. And what does this do to Raburn? Dude is a professional but he has to be wondering what he has to do to get some respect from his bosses. Guillens body will likely make this all moot by falling apart in May, but this might be a symptom of a much larger problem in the organization.
by rook34 on Oct 20, 2009 11:27 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
If he keeps whining
The Cubs have a problem hitter of their own they might want to get rid of…
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by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 20, 2009 11:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Get over your mancrush on Bradley
And his meteoric Magglio-like tumble in ISO that, at 31/32, is probably not going back up. He’s basically Carlos Guillen (contract included) with a slightly better OBP and glove and a much worse attitude problem.
by The Nicker on Oct 20, 2009 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better OBP and glove + bad luck this year = better than Carlos Guillen.
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by Mike Rogers on Oct 20, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
I’ve never said I want a power hitter- I want a high on-base table setter in LF.
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by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 21, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This. This is whining.
It’s annoying as hell. It’s unacceptable — from any big league player — to trot crap like this out in the media. Especially when the book isn’t even closed on the 2009 MLB season yet. He did this now to guarantee that he would get the spotlight to himself, instead of during winter meetings which usually blends right into the spring training charge up after Christmas.
I don’t know if Leyland said something to shut him up, or if he was serious. I do know that I’d now love to get rid of this potential clubhouse cancer before it can spread too far.
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by john.kmiecik on Oct 20, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is not good.
Having Guillen and Ordonez both in the outfield regularly would be painful. Hopefully the DH is rotated between the two to keep one out of the field. Raburn can fill in for either one.
by StringTheory on Oct 20, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maggs grades out as slightly below average in '09
and pretty much right at average for ‘07-’09 as a RF. He’s not an extreme liability, at least.
by ChrisDTX on Oct 20, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
Check out my OrdoƱez review and you’ll see that defensively he wasn’t that bad value-wise compared to the league average RF, however his range was complete garbage.
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by john.kmiecik on Oct 20, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now, this is the same stuff Inge did
When we signed Pudge. Then the same thing he did when he didn’t want to play Catcher. And no one gave him crap. Carlos opens his mouth for the first time in 5 years and people are already on his tail. Let the man speak, get it off his chest, he’s got a mulligan for, oh, never complaining before.
And Guillen is not a cancer, john. Ridiculous accusation on a player who rarely says boo and has changed positions annually for Jim without so much as a whimper.
by granderson28 on Oct 20, 2009 1:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Whoa whoa whoa
And no one gave him crap.
That’s just not true at all. Take issue with the love Inge gets from fans if you want to, but a bunch of fans were calling Inge a “cancer” and saying the team needed to get rid of him before the ’07 season.
by Ian Casselberry on Oct 20, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And to say Guillen has never complained before
How about during the 2008 season when he said expectations of winning 100 games weren’t fair?
by Ian Casselberry on Oct 20, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also seem to recall
that he was less than enthused about being moved off SS. He said something along the lines of “they better get an All-Star to replace me” or somesuch. I don’t get the “Carlos Guillen, Team Player” rap that he has. I mean, I like the guy and everything, but to say that he’s always been a good soldier is less than accurate. In any case, this whole thing is just to placate him for now. You don’t make any sort of decision about who is going to be playing what position next year in April. Well, I guess the Cardinals are pretty sure who their 1B is…but you know what I mean!
by ChrisDTX on Oct 20, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Complaining to the media about the media is arguably very different from complaining about your role on the team. Granted, his quotes back then sound like a ridiculous cop out, but it’s kind of apples to oranges.
In general, he’s gone through a lot of changes without a lot of public complaint. When Inge was making waves it was about playing the position he was drafted to play and groomed to play before becoming a Tiger: catcher (as I recall, anyway).
Overall, though, the situations seem to compare more than they contrast. Just like the Inge situation, I’m thinking less about purported “cancer” issues and more about “how are we going to get anywhere near our money’s worth out of this guy?”
by cloud wall on Oct 20, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
Didn’t know this site existed before 07 :) I was definitely one of them and have been for a long time saying he’s somewhat cancerous.
People I know who are close to the team also called Pudge a cancer in the clubhouse when he neared the end of his career here in Detroit. I loved Pudge and wish he could have stayed but sometimes, I guess, clubhouse issues are worse then public ones.
by granderson28 on Oct 20, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
** A couple of replies were deleted **
by Ian Casselberry on Oct 20, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
should I get my flamethrower to help with riot control?
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by madpoopz on Oct 20, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe a nerf gun is more appropriate though.
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by madpoopz on Oct 20, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FLAMETHROWER!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, I’m easy to excite.
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by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 20, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guillen is the only person who can’t seem to realize that he is a defensive reliability. We might complain about him because he’s stepping in the way of someone better defensively and pretty good offensively in Ryan Raburn.
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by madpoopz on Oct 20, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for replying to my post directly.
Can you please stop playing victim and dredging up your tired Inge discussion? Inge got tons of hell for for his complaining from plenty of fans.
This might be difficult for you given that you’re hellbent on just being dead wrong constantly but you need to read my post carefully. I’ve pasted in the specific part I want you to read, and even emphasized the part I want you to pay attention to.
“I do know that Iād now love to get rid of this potential clubhouse cancer before it can spread too far.”
Not sure what else I can do to qualify that statement for you.
You complain about whining. This is whining. I don’t care that you apparently like Guillen better than Inge, whining is whining. He didn’t talk to Leyland, he ran his mouth to the media first before trying to work it out like a veteran should.
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by john.kmiecik on Oct 20, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I hate these offseason soap operas
Come to think of it, I hate the soap operas that happen during the season as well. I just want to watch baseball. Is that so wrong?
Guillen’s one of those that I can’t get a good read on his personality. I’ve also never had strong feelings for him one way or another (He pretty much exists). Still, this seems kind of random. I wonder if there might be some deeper, underlying issue. At any rate, those in charge need to re-establish control and nip this in the bud before it becomes a big issue. It’s like parenting. Or so I’ve heard (Disclaimer: I don’t have any kids).
by SabreRoseTiger on Oct 20, 2009 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
When there's not, you know, actual games to talk about
you get the soap opera action. We gotta have something to talk about, right?
by ChrisDTX on Oct 20, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ALCS, NLCS
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by john.kmiecik on Oct 20, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way...
I didn’t mean that as a criticism to Ian for posting the story. I was just frustrated that that’s the sort of thing we get to read about in the news (so it was aimed entirely at Guillen/the media, not at Ian or any of you guys). I’m sorry if anyone misinterpreted what I was saying.
by SabreRoseTiger on Oct 20, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh no, I know what you were going for
Just saying, at least we still have baseball on every night :P
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by john.kmiecik on Oct 20, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thought I'd make sure
I re-read that and decided that my initial comments could be interpreted wrong.
by SabreRoseTiger on Oct 20, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn near impossible for them to pull it out, I'd think
We shall see though.
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by john.kmiecik on Oct 20, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where is Bennie??
This is a great conversation for BBF!!!
Don't drive angry!
by Dan Gurney on Oct 20, 2009 4:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I miss that guy
those were more innocent times
by cloud wall on Oct 20, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah, i recall them fondly.
everyone, even me, was more upbeat. The Henning article depressed me today, but his track record of being wrong made me feel a bit better.
by rook34 on Oct 20, 2009 5:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I don't even bother reading him
What’d he say this time?
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by john.kmiecik on Oct 20, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trading Grandy for a bullpen arm and corner OF/SS
And apparently having Casper “I can’t get on base” Wells play CF.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 20, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what's your beef with Wells?
He got on base just fine in Erie and he’s doing it just fine in Arizona too. Plus he’s a solid choice defensively. He’ll be in the discussion in spring training.
by MackAveKurt on Oct 20, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frick
I got contact and on-base confused…
Wells actually does get on base, but his contact rates in AA are scary low. He’s a huge risk in that right.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 21, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, that's certainly true this year
A lot of strikeouts for sure. But it wasn’t a big issue in past years, so you have to wonder how much is related to his shoulder issues this spring.
It’s definitely been an all year thing, and continuing in Arizona. It’s something to keep an eye on, but not necessarily a disqualifier.
by MackAveKurt on Oct 21, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is
His highest BA in the minors was last year, where it was .269 spread over West Michigan and Erie. I’m afraid that his BA will be closer to the Mendoza line in the majors, which will destroy his overall line.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 21, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh. It’s probably too early to make judgments on what he’d hit as a major leaguer. Wells would probably struggle in the major leagues, but not many guys set the world a-fire in their first go round in the majors. In a similar-sized sample in Erie in 2008, he struck out some 6% less (27.7% in 2009, 21.1% in 2008). I think his K’s will come down next year if he’s in Toledo.
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by Mike Rogers on Oct 21, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The drop in strikeouts is good
That being said, I’d like to see BABIP or something to tell what happened to that extra 6% of PA- it doesn’t reflect in his batting average (which could, yes, be a symptom of the injury). And isn’t a 20% strikeout rate still horrendous?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 22, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ask and receive
MinorLeagueSplits.com does have BABIP. Surprisingly, his BABIP is higher than you’d expect.
Also in googling around, I found reports that it was a broken bone in the wrist, the Tigers initially thought it was shoulder.
by MackAveKurt on Oct 22, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kurt's right, Wells has been better
However I’m not sold on moving Granderson at all.
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by john.kmiecik on Oct 20, 2009 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for sure
you don’t want rookies up the middle. I don’t think Grandy goes anywhere. But you never know, some GM might offer something really interesting. Probably not. But you always have to listen. I’d hate to see him go too, of course. But if it sets the team up for winning more games, I’d get over it.
by MackAveKurt on Oct 20, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what about his track record of being right?
and don’t pretend he doesn’t have one
by MackAveKurt on Oct 20, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
kurt, i am choosing to ignore....
The times he has been right in order to make myself feel better. Seriously, if grandy is traded, it will be one serious revolt from the fanbase, even if two solid players are the price.
by rook34 on Oct 20, 2009 5:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
grandy won't be going anywhere, I suspect
nor should he, unless the tigers get a couple of pieces that they really need. You never say never. Just say unlikely.
no denying, henning gets a bug up his butt sometimes. but he gets panned a bit too heavily online.
by MackAveKurt on Oct 20, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
two solid players isn't enough
Grandy is a young All-Star CF who knows how to cover the continent that is center field at the CoPa better than anyone else in the league. There is no reason for the Tigers to even entertain offers for Granderson. Prospects aren’t worth it, and why would you trade a guy ready to hit the prime of his career for a slightly better veteran who only has a good year or two left?
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by handsomerob1 on Oct 21, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, the prime of a player’s career is typically 26-28. Tigers should most definitely field calls for Curtis Granderson but there’s no reason to give him away. If the right package comes along, though, I don’t see a reason to turn down fair value or getting more than Grandy is worth.
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by Mike Rogers on Oct 21, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not saying he's never right
but when he gets off-the-wall, it’s so far off the damn reservation it’s difficult to read him with any kind of regularity.
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by john.kmiecik on Oct 20, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Call me naive
but I don’t even feel like his comments are that bad. There’s some frustration there but it centers around him wanting to play. The thing that is depressing to me is that I feel like our best line-up heading into ‘10 would include Raburn in LF and Gullien at DH. Is there anyone else who reads Gullien’s comments and just shrugs their shoulders and goes “meh.”
I can't believe I ate the whole thing!
by tigerfaninChicago on Oct 20, 2009 5:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i think the bigger issue....
Is that a vet and purported team leader went to the press with this, rather than handling it internally. It is probably a bit of overkill, but I think that is what upset people moreso than what he said. Leyland apparently caving doesn’t help, though we all know he changes his mind on an hourly basis.
by rook34 on Oct 20, 2009 6:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised to see us track down Brian Hunter to put in LF and 3rd in the order.
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by Mike Rogers on Oct 20, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish players would quit whining. I get it. You have pride in your abilities and you think you’re an everyday player. Unfortunately you don’t run the team or the lineup. Shut up and play when the manager tells you you’re playing.
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by Mike Rogers on Oct 20, 2009 5:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Honestly......
I’ve never liked him. Jim should just tell him to hit the road. Let Raburn play.
by wepri31 on Oct 20, 2009 5:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I've always appreciated his clutch bat...
but to me Carlos has had this weird way about him that I just couldn’t grasp. Hopefully whiner isn’t the weirdness I was sensing.
My Music: Some Sorta Giant
by madpoopz on Oct 20, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whenever I've seen him at spring training/post games
he’s just been such a jerk to fans. And I don’t mean just that he doesn’t sign autographs, but he never even acknowledges people. He just screams major ***hole to me.
by wepri31 on Oct 22, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that makes the image accompanying my review a bit awkward
It’s of him signing a ball in Lakeland when he was there in July :P
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by john.kmiecik on Oct 22, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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