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Beck on WDFN: Guillen Frustrated with Leyland Since September

According to MLB.com's Jason Beck, Carlos Guillen was just waiting for the end of the season to voice his frustrations over Jim Leyland's handling of the Detroit Tigers' lineup.

More photos » by Jerry S. Mendoza - AP

According to MLB.com's Jason Beck, Carlos Guillen was just waiting for the end of the season to voice his frustrations over Jim Leyland's handling of the Detroit Tigers' lineup.

MLB.com Tigers beat writer Jason Beck appeared on WDFN Tuesday afternoon with Matt Shepard and Drew Sharp to discuss the Carlos Guillen situation. 

(I know 'DFN has been back on local programming for a few weeks now, but it's nice to have more Detroit sports talk for these kinds of interviews.  97.1's afternoon drive-time show isn't doing stuff like this.)

You can listen to or download a podcast of the segment at the WDFN website, but here are some bullet points from the conversation.

  • According to Beck, Guillen began showing frustration with his role in early September, but didn't want to talk about it during the playoff race.  He knew Guillen wanted to talk after the season was over, though.
  • Guillen had a problem with Jim Leyland constantly changing lineups, and bringing this to the team's attention may have been why he chose to voice his complaints through the media.
  • When asked by Sharp if Guillen could be traded, Beck said he "can't see a scenario" in which that would happen.
  • Shepard wonders if this is "a Latin America thing," in that Latin players seem to take pride in playing the infield, especially shortstop.
  • Beck believes it would take "a heck of a deal" for the Tigers to consider trading Curtis Granderson.  Outfielders from other teams have talked about how difficult it is to play centerfield at Comerica Park, so why trade a guy who's shown he can do it? (Especially if Guillen and Ordonez play the corner spots.)

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I guess it would be frustrating to a player

if the lineup is constantly being changed. But there’s a simple cure for that. HIT WELL, HIT CONSISTENTLY, FIELD THE DAMN BALL. I guarantee you’ll have a solid spot in the lineup if you do.

by NCDee on Oct 21, 2009 8:29 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm wondering how much his injuries had to do with the poor production

Remember when he came back he couldn’t switch-hit initially (can’t say I remember if he ever did again, gut says yes though) even though that was his “good” side.

by john.kmiecik on Oct 21, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously

The Cubs await, Mister Guillen. Don’t be an ass.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 21, 2009 8:35 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

His true spot is DH

Carlos lucky he plays the field at all. If it wasn’t for Maggs he would be the Tigers’ DH. Thinkings Maggs will be the DH next year because he has no range in RF.

by Barry2 on Oct 21, 2009 8:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Guillen has no range in LF

and there’s more room in LF in Comerica with how Granderson positions himself. Raburn needs to start.

by handsomerob1 on Oct 21, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was going to reply with a +1

but then I looked at his stats. Guillen was actually better than league average range this season in left. Of course this isn’t the end all be all of stats, but I thought it was pretty damn surprising.

by john.kmiecik on Oct 21, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One thing I agree with Guillen on

Is how frequent the lineup changes and Leyland’s flip-flopping on what position each Tiger plays. That said, tough to complain about consistent defensive playing time when numerous arguments have been posted here that suggests he barely should see the field at all.

by TMadison25 on Oct 21, 2009 8:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The lineup changing is a legit point.

JL is seemingly incapable of sticking with a consistent lineup. Maybe he thinks his old warhorses (Maggs, Guillen, etc) are incapable of playing five games in a row.

Has anyone asked Carlos whether or not JL was trying to save his shoulder? It seemed like medical opinions about the shoulder were all over the board. One day, he could bat right handed. One day, he couldn’t. One day, he could play the outfield. One day, he couldn’t button his shirt (ok, I’m stretching the point). But did he ever consider that JL may have been trying to save the guy’s arm?

by rook34 on Oct 21, 2009 9:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Talking with my supervisor today, I asked what he thought of Guillen complaining. He suggested that his injury may have played a large role in his reduced playing time and his drop in production.

by john.kmiecik on Oct 21, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A hurt shoulder would definitely affect his swing on both sides.

I can see how the consistent line up changes and batting orders could frustrate someone as well.

by 13194013 on Oct 21, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Legit point

From the Tigers FB site: “According to baseball-reference.com, manager Jim Leyland used 126 different batting orders this year, not including pitchers during Interleague Play. The most common order was used just seven times. That’s actually more stable than last year, when Detroit used 131 different orders, none more than five times.”
If there is one huge, valid criticism of Jim Leyland, it is this. Too often players are jerked in and out of the lineup, often based on a “hunch.” For anyone who’s played the game, I would think most would agree that this approach hurts a player more than helps, particularly when its this extreme. Further, Leyland makes strange substitutions…including pinch-runners who seem to get picked off rather often, and “defensive” replacements who, themselves, are spotty, such as Raburn.

While I never care for players taking their complaints public, I mind it less from a guy like Guillen than I would from many others. At least he had the prudence to wait until after the season, rather than risk a pennant-race distraction.
Carlos has been a tremendous player for the Tigers and I find much of this criticism of him to be over the top. He’s a gamer. He’s played so ill that his life was in danger while in Seattle (2001?), he played last year when his wife was severely ill, he’s been asked to play four positions in the past three years – without complaint – and he’s worked hard to improve at each spot. Personally, I think this guy is incredibly under-appreciated by most Tiger fans.

The world's greatest wiffle ball tournament! TheFatty.com

by rings on Oct 21, 2009 10:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This is all true

But there’s something to be said about the character of someone that openly questions his commander- in this case, Leyland. That doesn’t smack of team loyalty to me.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 21, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I don’t think you should jump on a guy for questioning the boss. Of course you would prefer he do it behind closed dorrs, but if Guillen thinks something can be improved about the way this team plays, at least he waited until the offseason to voice his frustration. That gives everyone four months to move past the distraction and maybe gets Leyland to consider what Guillen had to say.

by BigJP on Oct 21, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you should more than prefer it behind closed doors

while it makes for exciting reading, these things should be played out out-of-sight.

by MackAveKurt on Oct 21, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

regardless of who Guillen voiced his complaint to (MSM instead of JL), it’s much better doing it now than during the pennant race. Give Guillen credit for that much. I still don’t think he’s an everyday fielder anymore.

by handsomerob1 on Oct 21, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rather not even hear about it.

This should be dealt with in the clubhouse, player to manager. Especially Guillen who is a leader in the clubhouse. I found it a bit strange.

by john.kmiecik on Oct 21, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was kind of wondering about the lineup changes throughout the year

and whether or not if affected/bothered players. I guess I have my answer… now I wonder if he’s the only one that felt that way. I’d guess not. Still lame of him to deal with things this way, through the media.

by allikazoo on Oct 21, 2009 11:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Carlos

If anyone was going to go this route it was going to be Carlos. He is a leader on the team and respected. I can’t begin to tell you how frustrating the “Sunday” lineups and all that was for many of us. Three years running Carlos moved from one position to another and kept quiet and/or just said what was best for the team. I can understand also Leyland moving players in and out of the lineup due to their health issues too. If he isn’t moved, which is highly unlikely with the 2 years and 26 mill remaining, he will be the DH all of 2011. I think Maggs won’t get the vesting option again. This team needs to get younger in the outfield corners, it’s just going to take a little longer than we would like.

by KalineCountry on Oct 21, 2009 12:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

every team has sunday lineups

While Leyland had a lot of lineups, remember the complaint many people had? It was that he was almost too consistent.

Why bat Clete third before sending him to Toledo? everyone else already had their spots in the lineup, and Leyland didn’t want to move them. We strongly disagreed with that, too.

by MackAveKurt on Oct 21, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe Leyland shuffled his lineup

to wake up the bats. I got the feeling he was trying anything to find the right combination of hitters. Maybe he should have stuck with the same one for a while and given it a chance to work, but then people would be all over him for that, too.

by NCDee on Oct 21, 2009 3:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And now we're officially on THAT merry-go-round

Guillen says he wasn’t able to produce consistently because the lineup kept getting shuffled. Leyland kept shuffling the lineup because guys weren’t producing consistently. Chicken, meet egg.

by SabreRoseTiger on Oct 21, 2009 3:54 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

per beck's latest article....

“Before he points the finger at the offense, he’d better look in the mirror and see what he did,” Guillen said Sunday. “I don’t want to make an excuse, but nobody in the big leagues feels comfortable when you play [lineups] that way. It’s not fun to play like that.”

Yuck. Can’t Carlos turn his phone off?

by rook34 on Oct 21, 2009 4:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

This is why I can’t buy the whole “teach the manager a lesson” argument- it’s out there, it’s done and it’s over. There comes a time where you have to return to the role of subordinate.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 21, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He sure didn’t seem to have problems with the way Jim Leyland constructed his lineup before this season (unless I am forgetting more whining through the media from Guillen in past years). So how about he just goes out and gives Leyland a reason to play him everyday by, you know, hitting the base ball hard and getting on base?

by Mike Rogers on Oct 21, 2009 5:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He could go all "Operation Shutdown" ala Derek Bell.

That’ll learn those pesky Tiger manager types!

by 13194013 on Oct 21, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great reference.

If that’s Carlos Guillen’s prerogative, then I’m fine with him leaving the team. There’s being disruptive in the media, and then there’s “operation shutdown.” Derek Bell also never got another job after that. Granted, he wasn’t putting up the numbers Guillen did this year, but still.

by Mike Rogers on Oct 21, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carlos has a point

I said it to myself a few times over the season. There would be a day for example: Polanco went 4-4, on a Saturday, Sunday’s lineup, Hey why ain’t Polly in it??? I was constantly confused. You are supposed to play the hot hand till it goes cold! Leyland cooled it off for us. Congratulations on a great day at the plate! Here, take a day off now!

Tammy

by VegasTigers on Oct 21, 2009 7:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Polanco probably played the previous 5 games in a row? Guys need days off as well. Going 4-for-4 before Sunday, when series are usually ending (and games are day games), usually means the regulars get the day off.

by Mike Rogers on Oct 21, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that'd be a doumb move

tradin Grandy. He’s a solid guy, just had a bad run there for awhile, he needs to back off the power hitting, or find ahappy medium between there & his doubles & triples he used to hit fairly consistently. Interesting because of Wilkin Ramirez & his speed, though I think he had some errors. I’d rather see him & Grandy out there. They need some1 who can put up RBI’s. & like I’ve said need hitting from the SS & Catching. Matt Nokes, Lance Parrish, Alan Tramell, Sweet Lou, Brookens, these guys could hit & field.

by LTownDown on Oct 21, 2009 10:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t get the need to “back off the power game” for more doubles and triples? Homers are the best hit a player can get and he had more total bases in 2009 (286) than in 2008 (273). He had an unreal 338 in 2007 but that’s just a career year he likely won’t approach again. For reference, 338 TB was the 14th most in Tigers history.

So I don’t understand the notion that Curtis Granderson needs to focus more on doubles. His OBP took a nose-dive, but that was BABIP driven -which, admittedly, comes with an increase in fly balls like Grandy had this past season. He also had a 13% infield fly ball rate which is absurdly high - his career average is 7.9%. What I draw from that is there were a fair amount of balls he was just missing squaring up and hitting a long ways (as the difference between an infield fly and a hard hit ball is very small … but we can’t quantify that until HITf/x becomes available hopefully next season).

So, I’m of the opinion that Curtis Granderson doesn’t need to change anything. His BB rate remained constant and he hit for a lot of power. I expect his batting average to increase as his BABIP was pretty low — even for a FB hitter.

by Mike Rogers on Oct 21, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don’t know why part of that got the strike through it. Oh well.

by Mike Rogers on Oct 21, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would also expect

he’ll hit better against left-handed pitching and that will improve the overall numbers too. He really has no consistency against LHP, it goes up and down. It’s hard to believe it could get much worse, though i suppose it’s possible.

by MackAveKurt on Oct 22, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs


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