Interest in Curtis Granderson? Oh, Yes
by Ian Casselberry on Nov 13, 2009 1:45 PM EST
in Detroit Tigers Hot Stove
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PrintIf Dave Dombrowski wanted to see what kind of interest he could draw for Curtis Granderson this week, he most certainly accomplished that objective. He may have opened a floodgate worth of interest.
Add the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim to the list of teams that would like a shot at Granderson this offseason. According to Newsday's Ken Davidoff, the Angels and Tigers have had discussions about a possible deal. Davidoff also cites a friend of Granderson's, who said he'd love to play for the Yankees. (Here's a link to the article, but Newsday keeps its content behind a paywall now. I bet Davidoff is thrilled.)
If the Angels were somehow able to get Granderson, he'd likely defer centerfield to Torii Hunter and play in left. Grandy has mentioned in the past how much he enjoys hitting at Angel Stadium. And the numbers back him up. In 21 games at Anaheim, he's batted .353/.415/.718, with eight homers and 12 RBIs.
And if Granderson isn't really an everyday player, as Keith Law said on ESPN.com, because of how badly he hits left-handed pitching (.183/.245/.239), the Angels have Juan Rivera on hand to platoon with him.
But in Tiger Town, we don't really want to hear about why Granderson is so appealing to other teams, do we?
Having said that, what could be going through Dombrowski's mind as his GM counterparts seemingly line up to make offers for the Tigers centerfielder? Is he thinking about how much Grandy might be able to yield in a trade? Or is he interpreting that interest as affirmation that Granderson is the type of player that the Tigers should keep around?
Everyone loves Curtis, it seems. This winter, he could be the belle of the ball, trade-wise.
Both of Grandy's hometown teams would love to have him. The Chicago Tribune's Phil Rogers says the Cubs "must do everything possible to get" Granderson. ESPNChicago's Bruce Levine says he'd be a good fit for the White Sox, too. But really, what are the chances the Tigers would trade him within the division?
If Granderson could hit 30 home runs (the fourth-most by a left-handed hitter in the AL this season) playing at Comerica Park, Joel Sherman wonders, how many would he hit with Yankee Stadium as his home ballpark?
Also, with the Yankees' seemingly limitless payroll, would trading Granderson provide an opportunity for the Tigers to piggyback one of their bad contracts onto a deal? If the Yankees took on Carlos Guillen, Magglio Ordonez, or Nate Robertson, however, they wouldn't be getting as much back, in terms of prospects. What would be more important, at this point?
(Thanks to peazgrl for posting this in the FanShots.)
Buster Olney adds the Red Sox, Mets, and Orioles to the list of possible suitors for Granderson. But could his bat splits against lefties affect what the Tigers could get for him?
UPDATE: MLB.com's Lyle Spencer thinks Edwin Jackson is a more likely trade target for the Angels, if they end up losing John Lackey through free agency.
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Edwin Jackson
Hmm… how about E-Jax and Ryan Streiby for Brandon Wood (for SS) and Ervin Santana?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Are you sold on Wood enough to do that?
Santana is all over the place too. I guess it could work, though.
YES
Brandon Wood would kick some major ass if somebody just gave him 500 PA.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Nov 13, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see it happening
Unless DD is blown away by an offer, why give up Granderson, who is under team control at a cheap cost considering his output (and supposed poor numbers against lefties)? Side note: His numbers against lefties were bad, but he was unlucky against them too. I’ve heard talk that this trade would start with Napoli and Wood, with an additional pitcher or two thrown in. The difference between Napoli and Laird is not as big as the difference between Granderson and whoever we could get to replace him in CF. It just doesn’t make sense, minus the additional prospects we get out of it. Wood is too much of an unknown quantity for my liking, and although he has put up monster numbers at times in the minors, he has shown nothing at the major league level.
I'm inclined to agree
Wood has not shown anything at the Major League level. Santana has had ONE good year, otherwise he’s been marred by injuries and control problems. Napoli can hit home runs, but he can’t throw out a runner to save his life. I want no part of that.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 13, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
After careful inspection of the Angels' 40-man roster...
I have determined that there is no one that the Angels have that I want. At least, no one for whom I’d be willing to give up either Grandy or EJ.
Sorry, Angels. But thanks for playing.
If Gandy is shipped out
Does this leave us with just Rayburn in Center? Or is Wilken R a possibility? Is there anyone else coming up on the horizon?
Nevertheless, I don’t like the idea of trading him
Raburn, most likely
Which means a drop in defensive quality… this is why everybody says that we trade him to the Yanks for the overrated Austin Jackson.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Nov 13, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
MLB Trade Rumors....
Says the Brewers are interested in EJ. There isn’t one player on that team I am interested in that they would trade. But isn’t Milwaukee a mid-level Midwestern franchise? Why would they be interested in acquiring Boras clients? Yes, I am being sarcastic.
by rook34 on Nov 13, 2009 3:27 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I've had enough of this suspense...I want odds
What is the percent chance that any of the four rumored trade candidates actually get traded (each), and what is the percent chance that all four (and possibly more) are traded away? Because I’m not that good at gauging that sort of thing myself.
i am not an oddsmaker..
And I am the most pessimistic person here. I will only hazard a guess on grandy. 70 percent gone. There is so much smoke on this that it will soon be hard to bring him back.
by rook34 on Nov 13, 2009 4:01 PM EST via mobile reply actions
This is lunacy
I agree with what I’ve been hearing from other Tigers fans: the Angels and Brewers don’t have the blue chip caliber players to make a good deal. The only deal they could make would include taking on a bad contract, like a Robertson or Willis. But geez, making a deal like that would be waving the white flag on 2010.
The only Grandy deal that even remotely makes sense would be Austin Jackson and Hughes/Chamberlain, but only if we felt comfortable with Wells in CF for 2010, which could be part of what is spurring DD’s shopping of Grandy.
There are no scenarios that make sense for getting rid of Jackson. He makes so little and adds so much. And without him, our SP depth is absolutely shot.
A lifelong Tigers fan
Looks like the odds of a Grandy trade are low
I’d totally do E-Jax and a prospect for Brandon Wood and Ervin Santana though.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Also
Dave Cameron seems to think the rumor is pants-on-head retarded(I’m paraphrasing, of course).
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
This reminds me of Florida dangling Cabrera a couple of years ag
The rumors of Curtis Granderson being traded reminds me alot of the Marlins floating Cabrera’s name at the GM meetings before the Winter meetings two years ago. They didn’t HAVE to trade Cabrera but once his name was out there teams lined up with offers. Eventually Florida found a team in the Tigers that was willing to part with a ton of prospects and were also willing to take on a project with a big contract. My feeling is this worked out for both teams. The Willis portion of the trade should have been a one year experiment and it wasn’t a bad idea to take that chance. I just wouldn’t have extended him two years, but hindsight is 20/20.
If the rumor mill keeps churning out teams and names, interest will soar and there ARE teams that won’t want to get left behind. You can bet your ass that the Red Sox have heard of the Yankees interest in Grandersn and Theo Epstein is checking his roster to see what he could offer to prevent them from getting him. And since Grandy is from Chicago it would seem that he would be an attraction there and an offer from the Cubs may be on the forefront.
But remember two years ago, who the hell would have thought that DETROIT was in the mix for Cabrera and that they would let go of the formerly untouchable Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller to get their man.
I love the weeks before the trade meetings
I really enjoy watching Granderson play centerfield for Detroit and would hate to see him go, but if they could get 4 or 5 kids AND dump a contract by packaging Granderson with Carlos Guillen or Nate Robertson I say go for it.
I swear on anything I can swear on...
if they trade Granderson, it’s over for me as far as the Tigers go, at least until management changes then.
He plays excellent defense.
If he got the green light more, he could be a real base stealing threat.
Certainly a pretty good hitter—would like more against lefties but he’s got to have something to improve on.
He’s a great guy from all appearances.
and, he’s CHEAP. I mean, he’s one player who is worth far more money than we are paying.
Pure insanity I say. Along with any of this nonsense of trading our #2 or 3 SP.
Wave the caution flag...
A Cubs offer could be built around 19-year-old shortstop Starlin Castro, who is emerging as one of the top prospects in the minors. Third baseman Josh Vitters, 19-year-old Korean shortstop Hak-Ju Lee and minor-league pitching from a group including Andrew Cashner, Jay Jackson and Chris Carpenter also could be part of deal.
If Phil Rogers hypes a Cubbie prospect bear in mind here is a partial list of some of the other Cubbie prospects he’s hyped:
- Hee Sop Choi
- Bobby Hill
- Corey Patterson
- Juan Cruz
- Francis Beltran
- Scott Chiasson
- Sergio Mitre
- Dave Kelton
- Rich Hill
- Todd Wellemeyer
- Jae Kuk Ryu
- Jerome Williams
- Angel Guzman
- Matt Murton
- Felix Pie
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
that's not really that fair
the hype from castro isn’t coming from rogers, it’s coming from everyone that’s seeing castro in afl (or those that saw him during the season). I don’t like Rogers, but the Castro hype isn’t coming from him.
Either way, I don’t think the Cubs are going to deal Castro in any deal this offseason. The system’s deep enough to swing a prospect-laden deal without forking over a top 30 prospect.
Caveat emptor when it comes to Cubbie "prospects"
Take a look back at the hype surrounding Felix Pie and Corey Patterson. The hype on Cubbie prospects rarely pans out in MLB. Rogers is the culprit locally spinning the hype for the Cubbies and his bull (feces) infects national writers. Castro this year’s Felix Pie and Felix Pie was the new Corey Patterson.
Anyone considering trading for over-hyped Cubbie prospects should proceed with caution.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
Again, all this blaming Rogers
is something I don’t get. Rogers certainly wasn’t hyping up Castro at midseason, when the train really started. I’m not a Rogers fan, but this train started because of Castro’s play at midseason garnering him looks from folks at places like BA (at midseason, they had a blurb about Castro having AS potential). It picked up in the offseason in the AFL, particularly when Keith Law had that blurb about Castro becoming a stud. The only times I’ve seen Rogers write heavily on Castro’s potential was … well now.
I’m not saying Castro is going to pan out. No one knows. He’s largely thought of as one of the best shortstop prospects in the game, but there’s still a lot of growth to go. Defense isn’t a huge issue. Discipline and whether or not he develops the above average power that scouts are talking about are the main concerns.
In general, you can talk forever about any system’s failed prospects. The Cubs have been solid on the pitching front. They haven’t developed positional talent in ages, but to say the system has been the same would be flawed and shortsighted, as in recent years, there’s been changes in hiring at the lower levels. In general, Pie was never nearly as well though of as Castro is right now. Patterson, yes.
That said, in case you haven’t noticed, Pie actually looked like a decent Of last year, which has led to some of the spec about Pie being a piece for Baltimore to offer in a Granderson deal.
Hype machine in overdrive
In general, Pie was never nearly as well thought of as Castro is right now. Patterson, yes.
Not sure about that. Pie was hyped as the next big thing and a guy who was untouchable, as far as trading him.
Hyping prospects is not unique in baseball but the Cubbies excel at it. As soon as Starlin Castro lives up to the hype and produces in MLB I’ll be shocked.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
Pie
was never thought of as a top 30 prospect in all of baseball, to the best of my recollection. I think he cracked a top 50 list once on BA, but could be off on that.
And the Cubs have produced some arms throughout the years. Struggled badly at positional assets, sure, but the idea that the Cubs somehow are above and beyond everyone else in regards to overhyping prospects is flawed (again, the hype isn’t coming from the Cubs side … Cubs were high on Castro last year, but BA’s top 10 lists, which are heavily influenced by organizational sources, didn’t have Castro there). You could make the case for any large market team – the media there will generate enough discussion to perhaps overhype a lot of guys.
So here’s my question to you then … since you seem so certain Castro isn’t as good as others are touting him up to be, then can you explain why? Have you actually seen him play (I have). Or is this just irrational Cubs hatred? At least you’ve dropped the idea that somehow Phil Rogers, as bad a writer as he is at times, is the one pushing it. Still haven’t answered the fact that Pie turned out to be a pretty solid OF last year, so maybe all he needed was time.
Wait before swallowing...
So here’s my question to you then … since you seem so certain Castro isn’t as good as others are touting him up to be, then can you explain why? Have you actually seen him play (I have). Or is this just irrational Cubs hatred?
My irrational Cubbie hatred? Huh? Ok then if that’s where this is going then your irrational Cubbie love is affecting your observation.
Unlike you, I refuse to swallow the Cubbies endless prospect hyping. I hope Castro lives up to the hype and does well for the Cubbies. I am rightly suspect of the swill and KoolAide that pours so freely surrounding Cubbie prospects. If you care to swallow it, fine, I’ll hold back and wait.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
How is my Cubbie love affecting anything?
What I’ve argued is that
a) Your argument that Phil Rogers is the one pushing Starlin Castro is flawed. While Rogers can be a hack quite a bit, this isn’t coming from Rogers. As I specifically noted above, the hype is coming from BA and guys like Keith Law, along with guys like Jason Churchill.
b) Do you read anything? This is what I wrote above
I’m not saying Castro is going to pan out. No one knows.
Somehow, you’ve interpreted that as … I think Castro is going to be the next great thing. Seriously, do me a favor and read a comment first before responding. I’m perfectly fine in admitting that I am wrong on Cubs prospects at time. I’ve said before (on other sites, not at bless you boys, which I joined the other day)that while I like Castro, I think the hype surrounding him has gone overboard. I’ve said that, even if Castro doesn’t meet high end expectations, that he might still be a decent shortstop with enough contact ability and a solid glove. I’ve said that I hope he reaches his high end potential. But no where have I said that I think he definitely will and that he’s a slam dunk. I certainly didn’t do it in this case. In fact, what I argued was
c) I don’t think the Cubs will deal Castro this offseason. This isn’t any “kool-aid” that I’m drinking. It’s just my guess on what the FO will do.
d) I’ve also argued that your argument that the Cubs haven’t produced any prospects is wrong, as the Cubs have produced pitching prospects. Read what I wrote above. If you want to argue that they haven’t produced positional assets, I’d fully agree with you. No doubt about it. I just don’t subscribe to the theory that, because it hasn’t happened, one should assume the worst, particularly when the system has changed in philosophy a bit. that doesn’t mean that I’m assuming the best either.
e) I’ve also argued that Felix Pie actually showed positive signs of becoming a potential quality major leaguer last year. He finished the year real strong for Baltimore. That said, Baltimore might be trying to move him if the Uggla rumors are correct.
f) I’ve also argued that I don’t think Felix Pie was actually as highly touted as Starlin Castro, which was one of your original points. While Pie was highly touted, I don’t believe he was ever considered a top 30 or so prospect in the minors, whereas many people seem to think Castro will rank that highly this offseason. Again, this isn’t an argument coming from me … it’s a general statement.
Comments have been deleted, due to personal insults.
You two should really take this back to Bleed Cubbie Blue or wherever else you might argue. This thread’s been hijacked enough.
by Ian Casselberry on Nov 15, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
tbh
i’ve got no idea who he is, but like i said in the email, i apologize for letting his trolling get to me. i was simply trying, as i did below, to discuss granderson, the tigers, and potential cubs interest.
Trades
Keep Jackson! Granderson hasn’t figured out how to square around and hit leftys to left, is a platoon player. If teams think Wells is about ready it gives them a reason for believing Granderson is more valuable. Ordonez is a good team player but has become a singles hitter who could only play left field, Tigers could have easily freed up $18 mil for 2010, but there is so much more $ freed up in 2011 and that may have been a reason to keep him. With the big bucks freed up in 2011, sit back and enjoy a rebuilding year with younger players in 2010 or else stay a 2nd place team. Gopher.
I'm sorry..
but who would be number one? The rebuilding Indians, the hapless Royals, the aging Chisox or the soon to be out door Twins. I remind you the Twins were 38-43 away from the baggie.. they’ll have to play completely different baseball at home for 2010. The Tigers or anybody else for that matter, will not lose two games in the lights next year. The Tigers are still a good pick to win the central.
Jeff
The "soon to be out the door Twins?"...
the Twins are never out the door. They ALWAYS put together a good team. Even when they shouldn’t. I’ll never count out the Twins.
My Music: Some Sorta Giant
New Song: One Days Work
I think he meant "outdoor" as in "not in the Metrodome anymore"
And no one knows how they’ll respond when they don’t have that godforsaken place to use as a strategic advantage. Remember, at least two of their wins against the Tigers (including Game 163) were direct results of the Metrodome’s quirks. That said, they’ve also proven you can spend the entire year right around .500 and then steal the division by playing .800 baseball the last three weeks.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Our favorite columnist...
has the whole thing done. He says the Tigers have gone too far to not trade both players.
I’m here in Chicago, and none of these prospects are all that well thought of. As Dr. Crawdad says above, they’ve learned the hard way in Cubbieland that prospects fail much more often than they succeed.
One hopes DD and Mr. I know that as well. Comerica will resemble a minor league stadium in more ways than one next season if they don’t. People aren’t going to stand for this.
Why must we only get prospects?
As you said yourself, prospects fail most of the time. The only acceptable way to lose our guys would be for young players who have already had success in the majors yet are still under team control. And even then I’m likely to remain skeptical.
And I can’t stand to read Lynn Henning right now. The guy’s gotta be downright unbearable at the moment.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think we have to lesson the blow of Rodney.
“If not, then is it safe to assume the Cubs would need to hand over right-hand reliever Carlos Marmol, who would help buffer the Tigers against the possible losses of both Fernando Rodney and Brandon Lyon?”
Brandon Lyon should be resigned, but there is no way on god’s green earth the Rodney will ever repeat the season he had this your. It was 80% luck that he only blew one save. You can take me to the bank on that.
Jeff
lessen.. not lesson.
I’m not an English major.
Jeff
I wouldn't want to trade Grandy for Carlos Marmol in a million years
Marmol has more control problems than Rodney will ever dream of. And yes, of the two, I’d pick Lyon over Rodney. Fernando had his moments, but I think he lucked out quite a few times as well.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
super.
Just like the Marlins gave up on D-train? just what we need. They “packaged” us right into that one. Although DBrow didn’t have to pull the trigger on that ridiculous contract.
Jeff
Not at D-Train level.
But he’s no longer their closer-in-waiting. He can’t locate the strike zone, and his breaking stuff gets hit when people can wait for it. Sounds familiar.
Sounds like Matt Lindstrom
And no, I don’t want Lindstrom. And I don’t want Kevin Gregg either.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
That was a bad contract
I can excuse Dombrowski for accepting Willis. You could hope he rebounds, but let’s face it, Miggy was the deal. The contract was just another bad move.
Late-season events notwithstanding, Miggy was worth the six players all by himself
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
agreed
in that respect, some folks have critcized dombrowski for his trades, pointing largely to this one. I don’t think the trade was bad … it was the contract to willis that made everything look worse.
I honestly don't remember
who the other 2 guys were besides the catcher, Badenhop, Maybin, and Andrew Miller.
The other two
Eulogio de la Cruz (who is no longer in the Marlins’ system) and Dallas Trahern (no clue where he is).
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
to be fair
no one has indicated that Marmol is available. Actually, Hendry has gone on the record saying that he isn’t going to bring in a closer this year because of Marmol’s talents. The problem last year might’ve been simply that, the idea of Marmol as the “fireman” was flawed, as it led to him being overworked. He might be better off in a closer’s role that doesn’t make him overworked (there was some data that indicated that he pitched better with regular rest).;
I stand corrected.
Everything I had heard was that he was going to be mid-late relief, but that they were shopping elsewhere for closers. Hendry certainly trumps everyone I’ve heard if he’s telling the truth.
agreed.
I watched 155 games this year and most ninth innings were brutal. No way luck goes his way again next year. His stars just shined last year.
Jeff
Who said it was acceptable?
They’re going to try and sell us that they’re going to use the Twins model. Only problem is, the Twins have far superior scouts and minor league instructors. That’s why we stole Knapp.
I don’t trust DD. At all. And I guess that includes Mr. I, too. I feel like we’ve been sold. They told us they were going to keep the team competitive. We were a double play grounder from winning game 163. And now they are going to blow the thing up and try to get us excited about kids. I6 years of following non-competitive, AAAA baseball is my limit. And I’m not alone.
I am not excited about prospects. Ever. They don’t turn out. And Melvin, the Brewers GM, let slip that DD is looking for young pitchers and young players. That equals cheap.
We’re heading straight back to Siberia. Call me a pessimist, but every sign points that way.
I agree..
Remember Cameron Maybin? ……
Jeff
... who will be a star in CF
Possibly as soon as next year?
He’s 22.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Nov 14, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
there’s a lot of “5 tool players” that never do anything. Odds are against him, or any prospect for that matter. It’s just baseball.
Jeff
Maybin has problems with strikeouts
But he’s been unlucky. And rushed.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Nov 14, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
That's
how those 5 toolers get ruined.
Jeff
How about Andrew Miller?
He still can’t throw strikes consistently. Even now in the AFL he’s still being plagued by control problems. So far, the only player in that deal that the Marlins have gotten a decent amount of contribution from is Burke Badenhop.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
The timing of the about-face just doesn't make sense
Why would you blow everything up when you’re one year away from some tremendous payroll flexibility?
And I hope you’re wrong about the AAAA team. Because this time there will be no Pudge Rodriguez to save us.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
I have no earthly idea.
But show me one sign that points to anything else. I’d be more than happy to see it. I truly don’t want to be right about any of this, and would love to be proven again to be nothing but a paranoid.
I am not excited about prospects. Ever. They don’t turn out. And Melvin, the Brewers GM, let slip that DD is looking for young pitchers and young players. That equals cheap.
I can see prospects almost any time I want to – for a $6.00 ticket to my local A level Dodger affiliate. I don’t want to see prospects on the major league team I follow.
Granderson is a good player. A team doesn’t improve by selling off their good players for prospects and picks, most of which will be useless. In ANY sport – you keep the guys who make you better. He’s on a good contract, likes playing for the team, is young and still improving – he is just the kind of guy that, if the Tigers do a complete demolition job, they will be looking for in a couple years – but he won’t be a long-term Tiger, he won’t have the history in the community, and he will be more expensive then!
It’s stupid to sell an something you need at a garage sale for ten bucks when you know you will need it in a few years and it will cost you thirty bucks to get it new. Put it in storage if you must, but hang on to something that is useful.
The high-cost contracts won’t be on the roster forever – just hang on for a year and let them start coming off the books and then make moves NOT out of desperation.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
wait
which prospects aren’t all that well thought of? Castro? He’s highly thought of, arguably the best shortstop prospect in the minors right now. Cashner? The debate there is if he’s a starting arm or not. But the potential is well thought of, as he has a potential plus-plus fastball to go with a plus slider.
Vitters is definitely hit or miss. But the former two are quite well thought of.
As for the Cubs in general, I have a hard time seeing the Cubs fork over Starlin Castro in any deal this offseason. The Cubs have another well thought of shortstop in Hak-ju Lee, who I could see get forked over.
I'm not an expert on the Cubs' farm system, but somehow I doubt either of them would help us compete next year
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
debatable
Cashner could probably step into a big league pen next year. If his slider is consistent, outside shot he could close. Castro might be able to play shortstop next year. There’s some spec that the Cubs may look at him as a midseason call-up if he gets off to a hot start. I’d rather see him spend the year in the minors. Loads of talent, just don’t see the rush and he can work on his discipline. His discipline isn’t horrid, but it needs some work (that said, he’s awfully young, and on the positive side, he’s thought of as a good student and a willing learner, Cubs had a more talented guy in Junior Lake who was at the same level as Castro last year, but he just hasn’t picked things up as well).
I guess..
the point would be to compete beyond next year. However, don’t we shed hefty contacts after next year? … and you can count on prospects about as much as I can count on my 1998 Kia Sportage… which trust me.. you can’t count on.
Jeff
That's why I advocate that if we trade guys away, we should get young-but-established players in return
It’s far less of a gamble. But I am very, very picky. I have some very specific acceptable (and imaginary) deals involving either the Dodgers or the Rockies, but they are so unrealistic and ludicrous that I’m not divulging what they are cuz all you guys would just make fun of me.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
absolutely.
how about Juan Pierre? hehe
Jeff
My bad on Castro.
But I agree with you, the Cubs ain’t trading him for Grandy. Maybe for JV when that rumor starts, which I’m expecting tomorrow.
Heard Levine here in Chicago doubting Cashner, but I suppose he’d be yet another good hit or miss pitching prospect, which we already have 10 of.
If Grandy is on the market
which I’m still not sure of, but let’s say if, but if he is on the market, I fully expect the Cubs to be active in discussions. He’s about as close to a good fit for the Cubs this offseason, giving us (in case you couldn’t tell, I’m a Cubs fan) a lefty bat in the middle of the lineup, upgrading our OF defense (partially through shifting Fukudome), and perhaps providing clubhouse leadership, all at a low cost. I also think that the Cubs could offer a real good deal, one that would compete, without offering Castro.
If anything does...
I hope it’s NL… I couldn’t look him in the eyes 14 times a year.
Jeff
here's my question
what would
a) it take, as fans, for you to accept the deal?
b) it take for Dombrowski?
Obviously, as fans, you are hoping the latter is the same as the former. I’ve read the threads involving Granderson, and I see the case for the high demands that some posters here, and elsewhere, are asking, but coming off last season, I’ve got a hard time seeing Granderson as having the insane value as some folks think (I have no idea what you think … saw some other comments).
It’s Friday and I’ve got an early morning meeting tomorrow, so was “mock trading”. Personally, I think a deal with Cashner (potential future closer) and Lee (potential future stud shortstop) would be one of the better offers the Tigers would get in terms of prospect value. That obviously wouldn’t be enough, but as a Cubs fan, that’s probably where I draw the line (and both guys are arguably top 100 prospects in the minors, at worst, top 120). I don’t think Castro gets moved in any deal. As a Cubs fan, that’s probably also the furthest I’d go in regards to forking over top prospects (we have a real good top 7 or so, you remove Castro, and I’m pretty much willing to fork over 2 of the other 6 in a trade for Granderson, but not 3). The Cubs could obviously fill in with cheap 5th starters (someone like Sean Marshall perhaps), stopgap CF/SS (Sam Fuld/Darwin Barney). You could run through a ton of names on the “fill in the trade” aspect.
A: A major league player, ready to start opening day, must be included. I don’t see a match there that would make me happy on the existing Cubs roster. Two prospects and an established major league players could make me feel better.
B: It scares me to think of what would go here. DD is pretty far gone.
i'm curious on a
in regards to what type of major league talent are you looking at, and what position? That is, you aren’t going to get an established young stud from any team, but are you looking for potential, or looking for, for lack of a better word, floor.
of the teams rumored so far
the angels seem to be the best fit for you guys, with potential up the middle talent, a few intriguing pen arms, and other decent enough pieces. Whether or not the talent level is high enough might be debatable, as the Angels system is not as strong as it was.
See, I looked at the Angels' 40-man roster and wasn't all that excited by it
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
the fit is there
value might be debatable. But a package of say, Brandon Wood, Peter Bourjos at the top might be decent fits.
Left fielder, shortstop, or second baseman.
Need someone who hits .260, can run the bases, and not be a butcher in the field. Also need someone who can play 130 games. We have a million platoon guys.
I can’t really think of a good name. But that’s the profile.
I can. He's in one of my acceptable trade scenarios
A frontline left-handed starting pitcher would also be nice.
(Bear in mind that these guys need to be under the age of 30 and still under team control).
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
um
front-line lefty starters are pretty hard to find. If you have a solid one, you don’t fork it over. I can’t see a team forking over a lefty that is more than your “typical” mid-end of the rotation lefty (guy with decent fastball in the low 90’s, plus breaker type).
Or are you simply referring to frontline lefty starting pitching potential, akin to Andrew Miller when he was dealt?
I'm still a bit skeptical of Sizemore
I live in Toledo, home of the Mud Hens (where Sizemore spent most of the ’09 season). As a result, I saw a decent amount of coverage of the team. Sizemore had a decent year with the batting average, but he was error-prone and struck out a lot (the whole team struck out a lot, though; they reached 700 strikeouts as a team almost a month before any of the Major League teams did).
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 1:04 AM EST up reply actions
I'm actually not a huge Scott Sizemore fan
I just thought Dombrowski or someone had said it was Sizemore’s job.
If 2nd base is open, the Cubs could offer the cheap Jeff Baker as an option. Former top pick never got a real shot in Colorado due to all their young talent, had a very solid year with the bat after joining Chicago and has some pop in it. After being a 3rd baseman, he’s been decent at 2nd. Baker’s sort of like DeRosa, you could probably play him at 5 spots (corners and 2nd).
That said, 2nd base isn’t the hardest position to find.
i only bring up baker
because of rook’s post above on what type of major league talent, not that I think Baker will be a key part to a deal.
Oh, I think Major League talent is an absolute must in any deal
I’m just incredibly picky (not referring to Baker here, as I don’t know a whole lot about him to make an educated decision).
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
Thinking aloud
because I’m honestly bored and slept in the evening …
Baker might actually make some sense for you guys due to his ability to play 3rd. Could allow you to dump Inge and have a cheap replacement (can’t think of a 3rd base prospect in your system). Could occasionally dabble at 2nd and LF to get other people AB’s.
I'm not in a big hurry to get rid of Inge though
And most people around here aren’t (the ones that are write very long posts about it, though). Besides, after next year his contract expires and they can either let him walk or re-sign him to a more reasonable deal.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 1:23 AM EST up reply actions
DD hasn't declared who the 2B will be yet
He’s just said the standard spin lines like “We think Sizemore is a Major League-ready second baseman,” etc.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 1:10 AM EST up reply actions
tbh
I still don’t really get the idea of moving Granderson. Thing is, you can put a contract with Grandy, but that would likely diminish the talent in return, and I think that would be a big mistake. If you deal Grandy, you want the best possible talent out there.
Is there really not enough money to find a passable defensive shortstop? I think you could roll the dice on the pen if need be. Short of it is, in a relatively weak AL Central, even if you stayed put, I think the Tigers would be competitive in 2010.
Now if it’s a cost-cutting thing, that’s understandable to an extent (ownership’s decision).
Four of the toxic contracts (some would say Inge is not toxic)
come off in 10, as you may have heard. This is why the whole thing makes zero sense to me.
I wouldn't say Inge is really that toxic
Especially when you compare it to the other four contracts. Inge is at $6.6 million. Everyone else is $10 million or more.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, don't we all know that?
Just look at the last Inge thread. It’s a minority, but it’s a very vocal minority.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
yeah i know
that said, that’s an owernship decision that. In that situation, I can’t blame Dombrowski if orders are being pushed down.
Illitch isn’t a break up the team type of owner though.. at least not with the wings. I don’t see a fire sale here with the Tigers who he might be more passionate about.
Jeff
if that's the case
then the idea of trading granderson makes little sense. Dombrowski has to know that those types of deals won’t yield the immediate impact talent for 2010. It’d be akin to, say, well, you guys trading for Miggy Cabrera.
Well, the perception of Mike Illitch is that he desperately wants to win a World Series
So if it is a cost-cutting measure, he’s acting completely out of character. If DD is acting on his own, he needs to intervene.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
My view: DD hasn’t gotten any play and wanted to get some calls. Grandy’s not going anywhere, but maybe he can talk someone into something else.
Jeff
I actually had the absurd thought...
that all of this hype is being built up around Grandy, he’s not traded after all and people are so elated & we all flock to the CoPa to cheer him on and pay the ticket increase for 2010 (tba) closer to opening day.
Hey...
It’s a business.. I wouldn’t doubt it. Marketing is key.
Jeff
For some reason...
That brings to mind weird mental images of DD having Illitch tied up in his office or Ken Williams operating some sort of mind control device on both of them.
Can you tell I watch a lot of science fiction?
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
It's funny...
…because I’m usually MORE trustful of DD than the rest of you.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 1:27 AM EST up reply actions
I trust him...
He hasn’t made many bad trades (renteria). Just signed some crap contracts. He’s not going to give up the fight.
Jeff
Hey, I approved of the Renteria deal when it happened, too
After all, he was coming off a season in which he hit, like, .330 or something and I thought his defense would be adequate because a) at the time we all assumed Inge would be at 3B and b) I was already used to Guillen making a bunch of errors. Of course, I was also coming off my first full year of baseball blogging (Looking back at some of the stuff I wrote in April 2007 is downright frightening. I’m still light-years behind folks like Ian and Kurt, but at least I don’t capitalize “grand slam” anymore).
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 1:35 AM EST up reply actions
me too… i was excited. I think he was the NL batting champ (?). Just hind sight is not so pretty giving up Jurrjens. Other then that though the guy is pretty smooth except for contracts, which again is hind sight. I believe that he wants to win and if he didn’t think it could happen he’d bolt like he did in Florida. I’m for him and I think he wouldn’t sell the team for a sack of a balls and a line up card.
Jeff
I agree...
We are just taking with him as a Tiger. His average vs southpaws is horrid and his lead off skills, last season at least was bottom tier. I just feel it was a down year and he’d be back next year.. hopefully not in another uni.
Jeff
I think Granderson
is an excellent player, but I don’t think he’s your “ideal” leadoff option. I think he was a leadoff option like Soriano was a leadoff option, they had success doing it and thus stayed there.
I actually made that comparison at work to a Cubs fan today.
Grandy is probably a 5-6 hitter in an ideal lineup.
agreed
Hence why Grandy is as close to ideal (still not exactly ideal , but close) for the Cubs. He could slot in the 5th spot, breaking up all the righties in Lee/Ramirez/Soriano.
What if the Indians were to work Sizemore in a three team trade. Would anyone take that? I wouldn’t. 6 of one, half dozen of the other. However I can see no reason why Cleveland would hold onto Grady at this point, other then to make him miserable like every other Cleveland player.
Jeff
Yeah, usually when you tear down your team, you try to keep one star so that you have a minimum amount of people coming to watch your games
The Padres were doing this with Adrian Gonzalez, although that might change with their new GM.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
if the indians can figure out their pitching
they can compete next year. The AL Central just isn’t that strong, and the lineup could be solid. TBH, I’d be more concerned about the Indians rotation than their pen, which is where most of the attention seems to be. They are more likely to be looking at 2011 as a real year to push, but it’s not impossible if the stars align in 2010 for them to be competitive. Add in the excellent system, and there’s hope for good things in the near future.
I've been saying that the Indians might be better than most people think
I’m not sure if they’ll contend or not, but they might be good enough to make life miserable for those who are trying to contend.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
I'm here...
and contending isn’t going to be an issue. They can’t make square pegs fit in round holes.
Jeff
Their pitching staff is a big question mark
But their offense still features Sizemore, Choo, Hafner (maybe), and Peralta. Those guys can do some damage if they run into one.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 1:19 AM EST up reply actions
There is NO WAY
The Tribe will not deal Sizemore. Period. They are ready to let their last two years’ worth of trades struggle flourish this year at the MLB level, so they can compete in 2011.
by TigerFanInCleveland on Nov 14, 2009 8:20 AM EST up reply actions
If the plan is to
put Carlos in LF and Maggs in RF who is going to take care of the OF in general? I think most of us realize that Grandy lacks skills at both leadoff and against lefty’s. I want Grandy to stay in Detroit because of his defense. He is outstanding in the out field and covers a lot of ground out there. If you put the 2 Venezuelo’s in the corners you need someone who has speed and is exceptional with their glove work. I only missed 14 innings Tiger baseball this year and seeing Grandy’s defense was definitely a high-light of the season, for me any way.
by Detroitchik on Nov 14, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
According to our favorite columnist...
Casper Wells can handle the outfield by himself. Despite the fact that three months ago, he’d been left for dead by many.
I disagree.
Guys like Curtis are not a dime a dozen. And i am pretty sure you’re talking about Henning. I don’t put much stock in anything he says.
that would pretty much make the Tigers the Cleveland Indians if Verlander got delt. ….Plenty of great seats available.
Jeff
will be the same if the trade
Grandy too.
by Detroitchik on Nov 14, 2009 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
if they deal Verlander
They are dead to me. D-E-D.
When you have a stud that everyone else would love to have, YOU HANG ON TO HIM!!!
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
oh as for cashner
the thing is, they were starting him this year. If you want him as a starter, you have two issues. A, his changeup needs a lot of work. B, he needs to be able to work more than 5 innings. He did sort of lose his feel for his slider at one point in the season, but the pitch has plus potential. Actually, out of TCU, his slider might’ve been more well-thought of than his fastball, but he’s managed to keep his fastball velo, get good movement on it, and control it.
If he’s a pen arm, if his slider feel is back, as reports out of AFL indicate, then he’s close to ready and could be dominant.
Wood plays 3B
If the Angels don’t trade Brandon Wood this off-season, he can’t go back to their minor league system without clearing waivers first. Wood’s only 24.
Brandon Wood is a power hitter. You don’t play a power hitter at shortstop. He’ll play 3B if he comes to Detroit.
Shortstop as well
You can play a power hitter at SS
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Nov 14, 2009 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
If Grandy goes to the Cubs, Josh Vitters becomes the Tigers Gordon Beckham
Vitters is the top 3B prospect in the country. He’s good enough to pull a Gordon Beckham and start for the Tigers after the June 1st arbitration clock state date.
Looks like the Tigers aren’t counting on Inge’s knees or fitness to be ready for the season.
Hard to keep fit when you have casts on both legs.
Tigers are actively seeking 3B replacements for Inge in trading Granderson.
I have seen no articles that suggest that, only speculation from the writers themselves
And I would never, EVER support trading away a player I like in order to get rid of a player I don’t like. “Hate” is a strong word, but I don’t care much for Jeremy Bonderman, and yet I would never agree to them trading away Grandy or JV or anyone like that just to get rid of Bonderman.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
You are much higher on Vitters than
most Cubs fans. Vitters is a good 3rd base prospect (probably not top 5, but perhaps top 10). That said, the offense is a huge question, and the defense isn’t exactly a solid point either. The potential’s huge, but there’s a lot of work to go. I’m hard pressed to see Vitters being ready to be in the majors any point this upcoming system.
The Cubs could definitely offer a potential cheap 3rd baseman in Jeff Baker, though.
High on Vitters
Apparently you’re hearing from different Cubbie fans that me.
Last year Vitters was a sure-thing and untouchable, and fans were aghast at even the mention of his inclusion in any trade proposal. Now he’s been all but written off and is in every fan’s trade proposals. - by tomas21 on Nov 14, 2009 on BleedCubbieBlue
Josh Vitters is a better prospect than Gordon Beckham like it or not. (The Sox and Sox fans) wish (they) had Vitters in (their) system. He’s actually not that bad of a defender. Only problem with Vitters is he needs to be more patient at the plate. But he’s going to be good. - Cubbie fan post at WhiteSoxInteractive, June 9, 2009
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
Vitters is better than (the Sox) whole minor league system combined. – Jan 18, 2009
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
Seriously?
“Casey Crosby is the second coming of Jesus Christ and Lefty Grove. He will be the greatest pitcher of all time”- by demondeaconsbaseball (Tiger fan on Bless You Boys)
The above statement isn’t even remotely true- just because a fan says it doesn’t make it credible.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Nov 14, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Comments have been deleted, mostly due to me getting tired of toonsterwu and DrCrawdad continuing to carry on their dance.
by Ian Casselberry on Nov 16, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
He's not that good
He has issues with plate discipline.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Nov 14, 2009 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
hey deac
I asked this above, but I’m curious about your take as well.
a) What would it take for you, as a Tigers fan, to approve a Granderson trade? (and if you want to be specific to the Cubs system, that’s fine, or general terms)
b) What do you think Dombrowski is looking for (if he’s looking, although he hasn’t really rejected the notion that he hasn’t chatted with other teams about Granderson. Could still be much ado about nothing)?
A Haren package
Seriously- Curtis Granderson is the best CF on the market, and he’s one of only a few superstars that teams are considering trading (with maybe Adrian Gonzalez on the list). I’d expect at least 2 top 50 prospects and a lot more upside beyond that.
As far as what Dombro has been doing… probably looking for a SS/pitching based package, which is why I think the Angels and the Yanks keep popping up.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Nov 15, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
re:
deac, sort of a question more than a follow up. was gonna find another thread to ask you, but now that Ian cleared the junk, here’s hoping you are still checking this.
Knowing how some GM’s make decisions, do you think, in general, that Granderson can net the high level package from a team. I certainly understand the demand – I’m not questioning that. I’m just not sure any team out there would offer it. Certainly, not an issue for you, but I’m just curious if you think any team out there would do it.
At first I read that as you wanted Dan Haren
Which I thought was odd considering the Diamondbacks hadn’t entered the discussion at all. Then I thought you meant you wanted the players that were involved IN the Dan Haren deal…
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 15, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
sheesh you guys have been busy!
I am guessing everyone has been monitoring MLB trade rumors, but if not, I posted a fanshot with a link to an article from this morning. It links to several mlive articles, which actually have DD’s comments in them, instead of more “anonymous exec” stuff.
I'm keeping tabs on MLB Trade Rumors as well
I don’t really appreciate that they seem to assume that a Grandy trade is now a foregone conclusion, but it’s still nice to have everything streamlined, summarized, and in one place.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 14, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions
Just as I predicted, Nick Cafardo is after Miggy again
He did this last year, too. Hands off, Red Sox!
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 15, 2009 10:54 AM EST reply actions
It's that time of season and being set up for trade disappointment is fun to watch.
I was thinking it’d be Simmons.
As long as it's just Boston media speculation, I'm not worried
Cafardo was also convinced that the Tigers were going to trade Nate Robertson for Julio Lugo last year, and he was dead wrong about that.
by SabreRoseTiger on Nov 15, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
This is where national guys often don't see the whole picture
For example, Cafardo cites the likelihood of not re-signing Polanco as a sign of cutting payroll. et he doesn’t factor in that the Tigers have a younger, cheaper replacement ready to step in, making Polanco arguably expendable.
by Ian Casselberry on Nov 15, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
I've got no idea
on why Nick thinks the Red Sox could actually go after Miggy right now. I’m not sure they can fit him into their picture financially and give up that boatload of prospects that it would take. I guess if they were able to move Lowell onto someone, maybe. I just don’t see it.
Right on Rick!
For the Cubs, the cost of doing business with the Tigers could be … and minor league shortstop Starlin Castro, whose abilities have taken on mythical proportions the last few months. …
The mere mention of Marmol and Castro has caused an uproar among some of the Cubs faithful. They must be forgetting … that the 19-year-old Castro hasn’t played more than 31 games above Class A.
There are very few can’t-miss prospects, especially ones who are 19. It would be silly to allow a kid who has shined in the Arizona Fall League to get in the way of acquiring Granderson. How many times have Cubs fans been told about a sure thing coming up through the minors?
Don’t make me bring up Felix Pie.
Rick Morrissey on the much speculated trade rumors.
"People shouldn’t bust your chops just because you’re a Sox fan on a Cub board — but I know it happens. FWIW, I think sites like this are more interesting when fans of other teams join in the conversation." by Shanghai Badger on Mar 13, 2009
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