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Lunchtime Prowl: Verlander's Contract, All-Decade Tigers, Adios Escobar, and Mike Cameron

Not a lot going on out there after a holiday weekend, but enough to put together a little bit of a Prowl. Did your Christmas go well?

  Tom Gage wonders what kind of contract Justin Verlander is looking at for next year, and seasons to come. If he signs a one-year deal to avoid arbitration, he stands to at least double the $3.675 million he made this year. But what if he and the Tigers can hammer out a long-term agreement? Is a $100 million contract in the realm of possibility? (That's what Seattle's Felix Hernandez is reportedly seeking.)

Something Gage doesn't touch on, however, is how Verlander might feel about signing with Detroit long-term in light of the moves they've made this offseason. A nine-figure contract would probably alleviate many of those concerns, of course. Dollar, dollar bills, y'all.

  Kurt linked to this in a FanShot, but I thought it was worth bringing up here, as well: The Detroit Free Press put together its All-Decade Team for the Tigers, and it's not all that pretty. But you already knew it was pretty rough for at least six of those 10 years.

  If Kelvim Escobar was someone you hoped the Tigers would take a chance on, he's no longer available. Escobar agreed to a one-year, $1.25 million contract with the Mets over the weekend. The deal is loaded with incentives, including a $125,000 bonus for making the Opening Day roster, along with a possible $3 million more, depending on how many games Escobar pitches and finishes.

  Getting Mike Cameron was probably always wishful thinking, considering the Tigers' budget concerns this offseason. But Buster Olney mentions on his blog that the Red Sox could explore trading him (after just signing him) if they end up signing Matt Holliday or Jason Bay. [Insider]

Since Cameron just signed with Boston, however, he can't be traded without his permission before June 15. Olney also mentions that the Red Sox would probably have to cover some of his $15 million he's now owed over the next two seasons.

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If Verlander signed a nine-figure contract

I would hope it was with another team after the Tigers traded him. They can’t be tying up 40-50% of their payroll in two players. If they truly want to have a payroll of $100M, they simply can’t keep him. That’s just bad roster management and too limiting.

All your favorite Tigers blog are belong to me.

by Kurt Mensching on Dec 28, 2009 11:37 AM EST reply actions  

True, but...

…this is Justin Effing Verlander we’re talking about here. A franchise player, a workhorse, all those other superlatives rolled into one. Mike Illitch has shown he’s willing to dole-out the bucks to draft picks who haven’t set foot on a professional field before — maybe this one guy is the one guy you can afford to overpay?

by frisbeepilot on Dec 28, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

And I would agree if ...

Ilitch agreed.

But the thing is, Dombrowski has made statements about making adjustments. We can see with our own eyes one of those adjustments is bringing the payroll to a more sustainable level. Paying Verlander $15M a year is not in line with those adjustements.

You tell me how the team is supposed to pay the other 38 players on the roster when two players make up 40% of the payroll by themselves? Unless the plan is to trade away everyone who reaches their 4th year of professional baseball for league minimum-cost pieces, it’s going to be pretty hard to keep the young productive players and to fill any holes with free agency when you have that much money tied up in two players.

It would look like this offseason yearly as they try to maneuver into their budget.

So the only two course of action are the bump the payroll back up — which would be great if Ilitch would cover it and then not make a sudden adjustment to the plan — or they could move Cabrera.

But then you’re moving a guy who plays 155 games a year at an extremely high level to assure you keep a guy who plays 33. Personally, I’d be fine with that if they got the right package for Cabrera. I just don’t see that happening. Maybe if the Red Sox were not run so well, I’d see it. But they are.

So to me, if you can’t get a good price on Verlander, he’s got to go. He has plenty of excess value and should net a nice return.

All your favorite Tigers blog are belong to me.

by Kurt Mensching on Dec 28, 2009 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I would rather keep JV

its harder to find outstanding pitching than it is to find a slugger

by Detroitchik on Dec 28, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

??

believe i am a HUGE Biggy fan, I have a soft spot for all the Latin players (especially the Venezulo’s) but what else is there? he plays above average at 1st, and he swings the bat well, he will most likely be a HOF’er some day, but so will JV, if it came down to making a choice, I owuld have to go with the Cy Young contender.

by Detroitchik on Dec 28, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Miggy might be amazing, but replacing him wouldn’t be too difficult. First basemen aren’t exactly far and few between.

A pitcher like Justin Verlander only comes around for a few teams a decade. The Tigers would be foolish to let him go.

by metatron5369 on Dec 28, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

well...

He can hit alot of home runs. No doubt about that. But he also knows that singles are ok as well. Plus he takes a decent amount of walks. I think those two things right there qualify him as more than just a slugger.

Lets add in the fact that the entire Tigers offensive is anemic. Take away Justin we still have pretty good pitching. Take away Miguel and this teams offense sucks.

Add the fact that Guillen is falling apart, Polly is gone, and Magg’s power production may be gone. And I can’t forget to mention that Opie and G$ are solid figures in the back end of this offense, not to mention a rookie 2b who despite all the praise could still prove to be a bust…I’d say that this team needs a great offensive player over a really good pitcher right now.

Pitching may win games…but games can only be won if theres a run on the board.

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by madpoopz on Dec 29, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Games played; What else do you do?

Two things:

1. I don’t think it’s fair to compare a position-player’s number of games with that of a starting pitcher. A position-player gets a quarter of his team’s at-bats (and contributes some in the field) in any one game; overall, the impact of that one player is pretty low. A starting pitcher, even though he may only start 33 games in a season, is the guy in complete control of six or seven or more innings every game he plays.

2. So, let’s say you get someone good and young in return — a pitcher, let’s say. He gets good, and then his contract comes up: what do you do then? Do you do the same thing you’re propsing with Verlander? If so, you’re proposing that the way this team should be run is to recruit guys in their early 20s — who may or may not actually work out at the major-league level — and trade them away before they get too pricey.

Maybe if you’re a master tactician with an outta-sight scouting department that hits more than it misses, you could pull this revolving-door thing off. But you can’t just trade away every single prospect you have who pans out, just because they get too expensive. Perhaps you can do this with some of your stars, but to do it with every one that comes along… why even bother?

by frisbeepilot on Dec 28, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm going to respond to these in opposite order

What you’re really arguing back to me is for a higher payroll.

Under your scenario, the Tigers sign Verlander to an extended deal. Let’s say to 15 a year during the meat of his contract. (If they can do better than that, by all means, I want to keep Verlander too, you know). Combined with Cabrera, they now have anywhere from $35 to $37M tied up each season in just two players. As we’ve seen already, just having these two players is a guarantee of nothing. You have two bonafide stars, but that is not the same as creating a winning team.

Now under the Tigers’ apparently adjustments to a payroll closer to $100M, you have to populate the rest of your roseter with a payroll of around $65 million. (And remember, they’re also paying people on the 40 man roster. Jacob Turner, for instance, receives at least 800K in the minors.) The goal should obviously be, at the minimum, a playoff spot.

So working under those conditions, how do you do that? By having a lot of low-cost, talented contributing players. And how do you do that? By drafting, international signings or trading for them. And I’m going to say, you do a good job getting the right ones by having an outta-sight scouting department with more hits than misses.

So whether or not you trade Verlander, you are going to need strong scouting to compete without the higher payroll. (Actually, scouting is equally important with the higher payroll because of roster spot scarcity, but having money means you can pay for your mistakes earlier.)

On your first point, I am apt to agree with you that a starting pitcher can have a big impact. In fact, Verlander had the highest wins above replacement on the Tigers team in 2009, so that’s pretty valuable. But we have two circumstances at work.

The obvious one is that Verlander had his best career in the pros in 2009. He is young and quite talented, but expecting that incredible season yearly is probably asking too much. In the long run, I would expect him to contribute as much to the team as a top batter, but not greatly more.

The second is that of team depth. If you place a large bet on one or two players (in this case Cabrera and Verlander) and it turns out poorly (because of injury, an off year, etc) it is harder to make up for it if you do not have a lot of team depth. And the very act of placing the bet keeps you from being able to acquire that depth (unless you have consistently scouted and stocked your minor leagues with players who can step in.)

Just like investing, you can put all your money into one stock that could fly or crash, but you’re better off diversifying and building a better, safer portfolio.

So I guess, there you have it. My philosophy for building a team is not to pay premiums a few superstars, but to try to be strong across the board and have depth for when the unpredictable occurs. If you’ve done it right, you’ll get your stars without having to pay full price for them.

All your favorite Tigers blog are belong to me.

by Kurt Mensching on Dec 28, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you.

Putting all your eggs into two baskets is a pretty foolish thing to do. If you’re the Yankees, you can afford to have a $25-million man around, when he’s only one-eighth of your payroll (and, it pains me to say it, when you’re as good as Alex Rodriguez is).

I was just mainly ranting against the whole “1990s Montreal Expos” mentality which seems to have crept into the Tigers’ psyche — you know, get crackerjack prospects year after year (how did they keep doing it?!), bring them up, get about five years out of them, then get rid of them. It seems disheartening that a team couldn’t be able to afford to keep just a few of its veteran stars around, just because, well, they’re veterans and they’re stars… but I suppose this is the sort of thing that other teams have had to deal with for years. Have we been sheltered by Mike Illitch all this time?

by frisbeepilot on Dec 29, 2009 9:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Sure

We can keep them around- if they’re willing to accept a team friendly contract.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by David Tokarz on Dec 29, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, look at it this way

I’d rather have a prospect around for five years than a free agent with the same production.

It’s not really an either-or proposition though. As always, it’s a case-by-case basis. In this case, if the Tigers can’t afford a higher payroll, maybe they should look at getting the most value possible.

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by Kurt Mensching on Dec 29, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope he is locked up for a long time

but…

If a big deal isn’t in the plans for him, he better bring some A+ talent in return via a trade

by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 28, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

4 years, 60 million or something along the lines of the Greinke contract.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by David Tokarz on Dec 28, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, we could . . .

. . . offer him 8 years at $140 million—we did that once before, for a lesser player.

by rea on Dec 28, 2009 12:25 PM EST reply actions  

No thanks

Last time we offered a young workhorse a 4 year deal it looked pretty bad or are we forgetting Bonderman’s contract? Verlander threw alot more innings and pitches than he did ever beore and for me that’s a big red flag. It alot easier for a position player to play at a high level for a long time, not so with a power pitcher.

by Emcobra on Dec 28, 2009 1:59 PM EST reply actions  

evidence?

All your favorite Tigers blog are belong to me.

by Kurt Mensching on Dec 28, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

he

over all seems to be healthier and pitch better.

by Detroitchik on Dec 28, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't jinx it

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by David Tokarz on Dec 28, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, but Bonderman

is a strange player to compare to JV when talking about injury risk.

Unless I misunderstand, Bonderman’s basic physical problem wasn’t baseball-related.

by rea on Dec 28, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Saying "young workhorse" and then throwing in Bonderman's name

is like arguing against yourself.. Bonderman has never been in the same class of pitcher that Verlander is.

Bonderman has never had an ERA under 4 and had more than 14 wins in a season.. and while he has touched 200ks once in his career, all other years he’s fallen well short of 200ks.

Justin Verlander is a horse, and those don’t come along all too often.

If DD is going to spend the money in the draft on the best young pitchers available, then he has to be ready to pay up when they come full circle and become legitimate players on the big league level. For years the team struggled in the draft (Matt Anderson?) and only recently have they made gutsy decisions to draft the best talent available no matter what the contract demands would be.

If they’re not going to sign Verlander to a contract of his value, then they should explore trading him as well. Take it a step further, and they should plan on trading Jacob Turner and Casey Crosby too once they reach arbitration age…

why groom talent, all star quality talent, and then dump it? If you’re going to sign up a guy from another team to a $20m per year deal, and not pay Verlander his worth? You’re setting a horrible precedent for the upcoming future…

by Boney on Dec 28, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

OMG

YOU’RE NOT DUMPING TALENT IF YOU GET A SOLID RETURN IN PROSPECTS OR CHEAP MINOR LEAGUERS.

Please excuse the caps lock and teenage-girl-popularized abbreviation, but nobody’s saying that we trade JV for nothing. But if the Yankees came calling and offered a package of Montero/Chamberlain plus, are you gonna say no? You trade young established stars who refuse to accept contracts like Greinke’s or Tulowitzki’s or Longoria’s (which no baseball player should ever do) to teams with lots of prospects for more chances at developing stars. There seems to be a clear misunderstanding on how the process works here.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by David Tokarz on Dec 28, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand how it works...

there comes a time though, when it’s time to get out of the high chair and become a man…

no team is ever (ever!) going to be successful by grooming their young talent and then trading them away while they’re pre-prime (24-27 years old) for guys who are 19-22 years old… you see where it’s gotten the Marlins, Expos/Nationals, and now the Rays… To develop a guy for 5-8 years and then dump him because you don’t want pay his value, and then turn around and trade him for guys that you have to develop for 3-6 more years is not a way to be successful in the game.

Verlander deserves more $ than Greinke does, I don’t see why “if he takes a deal similar to Greinke” is even a logical thought to have at this point. He had 1 off year, when the whole team had an off year… other than that, he’s been “on” every year except 2008.

so.. ZOMG DER IZ NO MIZUNDERSTANDEENG!

by Boney on Dec 28, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

And therefore it makes sense to tie up half the payroll

Sorry, I’m not buying it. If DD can’t sign Verlander to a reasonable deal (Greinke got 4 years, 38mm, so even giving Verlander more money would put him right around 4 years 40-60mm- I’d prefer 5 years at around 60 though) and we have to shell out 100 MILLION dollars for his contract, I say deal him. I’d rather have prospects and 100 million over 5 or 6 years than Verlander for 5, especially considering how good this organization is at developing pitchers.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by David Tokarz on Dec 28, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Alright then

I’ll compaer him to another young stud pitcher,
Verlander ages 23-26 186,201,201,240 innings pitched
Player b ages 22-25 151,216,220,237 innings pitched.
Player b had a 2.70 ERA and 264 stikeouts his last healthy year
Gee who is player b?????
Ben Sheets.

You can argue it any way you want but every year guys who throw extreme pitch counts get hurt. He’s a prime canidate

by Emcobra on Dec 29, 2009 9:27 AM EST up reply actions  

To be fair

JV is a much better pitcher than Bondo ever was. I get what you are saying, though. Signing pitchers to long term deals are incredibly risky. See Nate Robertson, Willis and Bondo.

by Scottwood on Dec 30, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

he throws harder,

later into games, not only a power pitcher but showed signs of pitching to contact (effectively) to keep pitch counts down, injury free (knock on wood)….am I forgetting anything?

by Fien SHOULD CLOSE on Dec 28, 2009 2:39 PM EST reply actions  

facts vs. your observations

pitch count: 3931, most in the MLB by 300+ pitches
pitches per plate appearance: 4.00 (higher than Halladay, Hernandez, Greinke, Lincecum, Lee … )

But he has thus far been injury free, anyway.

All your favorite Tigers blog are belong to me.

by Kurt Mensching on Dec 28, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Pitches per PA

Strikeout pitchers are going to have more pitches per PA than someone who primarily induces ground balls. Greg Maddux rarely went above 3.3 P/PA (for the years 2002 onward, for which these sorts of stats are available to me; not his prime, but he was pretty consistent), but that’s because he didn’t try to blow people away. Randy Johnson has been in the high-3’s, as has Lincecum; Johan Santana is consistenly around 3.7, and Francisco Rodriguez is way over 4.

by frisbeepilot on Dec 28, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

that's all well and good

but when Fien Should Close tells me he thinks Verlander is different because he pitches efficiently, that stats show he’s wrong in that belief.

All your favorite Tigers blog are belong to me.

by Kurt Mensching on Dec 28, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

sometimes

gut instincts are better than numbers.

by Detroitchik on Dec 28, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

When?

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by David Tokarz on Dec 28, 2009 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

Let’s start with Bradley, since he’s my favorite. He looks good on paper, but my gut tells me he’s more trouble than he’s worth, to avoid that purchase at all costs.
 Then there’s Dontrelle, who looked good on paper when we got him, was supposed to be a phenom and my gut instinct tells me we’ll never see that player again.
Then there’s Polly who looks awesome on paper and delivers, but because he’s sloping downward (aging) they decided not to offer him arbitration, my gut tells me that was a mistake and he’ll play good solid defense for several more years.
 Then there’s Grandy, who looks about average on paper with some of his stats and very good with other stats and horrid with some of his other numbers, knowing how he hits against lefties would you prefer to sit him on the day he would be facing a LHP, or stick him in the outfield because your gut tells you he’s going to do something exceptional out there. My gut tells me to play the kid every day because of what he can do defensively. My gut also tells me that he’s gonna do exceedingly well in NY.

by Detroitchik on Dec 28, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

So...

Your gut reaffirms what you think (in the cases of Polanco and Granderson) and what we know to be true (in the cases of Bradley and Willis) about current, former, and potential Tigers. Interesting.

Well, my gut tells me that Polanco was getting old and had a cheaper, younger replacement at AAA, and that we sold high on Granderson.

Now, were we in the scouting department, we’d probably have a fistfight over a conference table until someone else brought the stats in.

I’m no Sabermetrician, and I think those people overlook the intangibles, which do exist, but just going with “your gut” despite the statistics is just as problematic.

by crwi on Dec 29, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I said

sometimes. Not every time. I think you’re breaking down and over examining the whole thing.

“sometimes gut instincts are better than numbers.”

And everyone is going to have different ideas on what should be done. We can all voice our opinions and what I(we) feel in our guts and spout off numbers, but what we say/think/feel isn’t going to matter in the least what the organization does.

So, in this instance. My gut tells me that the Tigers should hang on to JV even at the cost of Cabrera, ( if it comes down to it) as much as I like him. That’s all I was saying.

by Detroitchik on Dec 29, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

That's dubious...

 off the top of my head I remember people whining about Raburn getting the PH against the Cubs in June… he was struggling (hitting 230s), hadn’t had a hit in over a week, and Leyland went with the righty against RHP anyway.

He hit a walk off home run. No numbers taken into account there.

There’s one…

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by Packey on Dec 29, 2009 3:28 AM EST up reply actions  

A lof of saber fans

Were hyping Raburn- I saw him as a super-sub (Tony Phillips lite) because of what the numbers said. Chris Kahrl from Baseball Prospectus did the same. So it’s more like mainstream fans looked at a number that didn’t tell the whole story and started whining.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by David Tokarz on Dec 29, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Those times are anomolies!

Like a good Yankee win or a reasonable Red Sox fan. Verlander’s workload is scary.

by 13194013 on Dec 28, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Indeed they are.

That’s the thing about chance and percentages… sure, Raburn hits a walk-off home run, but the odds of him doing that off the bench with a .230 average are significantly less than that of a .300 hitter, but either way there’s a chance. Heck, stick a bat in the batboy’s hands and shove him up to the plate; there’s a nonzero chance that he’s going to jack one out of the park. It’s not a good chance, but it’s a chance nonetheless.

(There’s an annoying commercial around here for winshield wiper blades that gets at the same thing. Some lady is driving somewhere, and there’s snow and slush on her windshield, and she says, “The weather guy was wrong, he said there was only a 10% chance of this happening!” He was actually right, though — if he’d said there was a 0% chance, then he’d have been wrong in his prediction. The same forces are at work here.)

Verlander’s workload does look a bit frightful, but… well, I’ll leave it at that. Maybe he’s actually one of those Mickey Lolich-esque freaks of nature that olde-tymey Baseball Men like to point to and say, “See that? Young kids can throw 300 innings. Lolich did it, Verlander could too.” (Mind you, they forget all the guys who shredded their arms and fell off the map, like all those late-‘70s Oakland A’s starters who’d complete nearly every game they started; Rick Langford comes to mind.)

The moral of the story is that peoples’ memories are biased, and that statistics are a far better guide to making decisions than gut instincts are.

by frisbeepilot on Dec 29, 2009 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

It's like poker

There are percentages and more often than not it is best to go with the numbers but the element of chance still exists and the outcome veers off.

by 13194013 on Dec 29, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't play either.

But the way the game is played and the use of statistics seem to make it a better comparison than other games/sports because baseball is a team game with individual performances affecting the entire outcome.

With all those chances, and the percentages of what outcome will occur, it reminds me of watching poker on TV.

by 13194013 on Dec 29, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

pitch count argument

CC Sabathia has been at the tops in total pitches the last few years that he’s come into his prime, and he has not shown signs of decline..

and he’s not nearly as in shape as Porcello and Verlander are… I think total pitches is just a number to throw out there that no one really ever wants to argue against.

We’re not talking about Ben Sheets here, it’s Justin Verlander…

by Boney on Dec 28, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

he also faced

100+ more batters than his previous career high in 38 1/3 more IP.. of course his pitch count is going to be high..

add the fact his k/9 was at 10+ when in previous seasons it was no higher than 8.2…

I don’t believe pitch count will hurt a guy like Verlander… he just posted his career low for WHIP by a .06 improvement over 2007, and his career low for BB

Strikeout pitchers throw a lot of pitches, I don’t believe an additional .5 pitches per AB more than the next strikeout pitcher makes that big of a difference. Especially when he’s striking them out at a pace of 10+ per 9

by Boney on Dec 28, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

contact to keep pitch counts down???

He threw 600 more pitches than Roy Halladay but threw the same number of innings. That’s 18 more pitches a game.

AL Leaders: Pitches Thrown (Thru Oct. 6, 2009)

 
Rank Player Team Stats
1 Justin Verlander Det 3940
2 Felix Hernandez Sea 3646
3 CC Sabathia NYY 3590
4 A.J. Burnett NYY 3484
5 Zack Greinke KC 3482
6 Edwin Jackson Det 3472
7 Matt Garza TB 3421
8 Jon Lester Bos 3405
9 Jered Weaver LAA 3404
10 Roy Halladay Tor 3396

by Emcobra on Dec 28, 2009 2:53 PM EST reply actions  

Santa must be a Tigers fan.......

Waiting for me under the Xmas tree was:

1) A 1984 Rawlings official World Series baseball
2) A 1980 Detroit Tigers Yearbook
3) The signed commerative Ernie Harwell poster from when he said goodbye at Comerica Park

I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas and has a safe and happy New Year! Go Tigers!

by MSU4LIF on Dec 28, 2009 3:03 PM EST reply actions  

You know

It’s a sad day for baseball when teams have to save and scrounge for one marquee player. It seems teams of proven talent are forever gone, save in two cities on the Eastern seaboard…

by metatron5369 on Dec 28, 2009 3:15 PM EST reply actions  

I understand the reasons we wouldn't be able to keep JV.

But if he goes, that’s a huge indictment of our franchise long-term. Basically, we’d be admitting we can’t afford more than one star, and you can’t win a World Series with one star player. Especially when your franchise has not shown it can consistently develop young positional players to support that one star.

Maybe that’s the truth and I need to get comfortable with it, but seeing us turn into a farm team for the big Two (or Three, or Four) would be a dark situation indeed.

by rook34 on Dec 28, 2009 3:28 PM EST reply actions  

You're looking at it wrong

You can have more than one star player. The Tigers had multiple star players in past years, and it didn’t help them win a single division title.

The goal is to have multiple cost-controlled star players and to spend wisely.

And yes, you do have to adjust how you view the Tigers. They are not a big market club. They aren’t a small market club either. They have the ability to keep a higher payroll than average, but they don’t have the room to make mistakes.

All your favorite Tigers blog are belong to me.

by Kurt Mensching on Dec 28, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

Again. You trade the established players to get cheap prospects that you then develop into cost controlled stars. THIS is why I go gaga over rookies and prospects- they’re cheap and often better than what we have at the big league level.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by David Tokarz on Dec 28, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess.

I just don’t like the precedent. It’s tough to get fired up about prospects acquired for known quantities. Most prospects don’t pan out.

But I’ll try, nonetheless.

by rook34 on Dec 28, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

You're scarred by the Smith era

Those players weren’t prospects- they were junk.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

by David Tokarz on Dec 28, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

it depends on the circumstances

In general, I am in favor of trading prospects for professionals when your team has a chance to bring home some hardware.

I also did not like the prospects returned for trading Granderson. (too many lefty relievers for my tastes).

However, each deal has to be judged on its own. The goal isn’t to acquire “prospects” so much as it should be to acquire young, cost-controlled talent, and to bring enough of it into the organization to give you the most options when scenarios occur.

All your favorite Tigers blog are belong to me.

by Kurt Mensching on Dec 28, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

The name of the game is championships.

It does not matter how many “fan favorites” or “high priced stars” you have when you do not win a championship. Winning gets the money flowing, allowing for higher payrolls and more stars.

The Tigers are a middle level franchise working with what they have with an owner who will probably approve a few moves if a chance at winning materializes. Unlike the Marlins who are content to sit around 39 million and take money from MLB.

by 13194013 on Dec 28, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

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