Tigers/D-Backs/Yankees Trade Still Alive?
by Ian Casselberry on Dec 8, 2009 10:15 AM EST
in Hot Stove
364 comments
As of last night, the proposed three-way trade between the Detroit Tigers, Arizona Diamondbacks, and New York Yankees had stalled. Buster Olney mentioned on Twitter that discussions had reached the point where only one of the three teams (presumably Arizona) liked the deal on the table.
However, that apparently doesn't mean the trade is dead. Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi report that the three teams are still open to a deal. I presume that when negotiations get so far that most of the key players in a trade are in place, there's still plenty to work with. And it looks like each team knows which big name it would get in this deal. Perhaps it's more a matter of either the Tigers getting the players they want, or the Yankees relenting on who they'd prefer not to give up.
Once again, here's the trade scenario that was in play last night:
- The Yankees get Curtis Granderson from the Tigers and one or two prospects from the Diamondbacks.
- The Diamondbacks receive Edwin Jackson from the Tigers and right-hander Ian Kennedy from the Yankees.
- The Tigers would get right-hander Max Scherzer from the Diamondbacks, along with centerfielder Austin Jackson and lefty relievers Phil Coke and Michael Dunn from the Yankees.
Based on Olney's reporting, the Tigers apparently want Phil Hughes included in the deal, but the Yankees don't want to give him up.
Just to provide some more background on Dunn, who might be the most unfamiliar name in the proposed trade, he pitched in Double and Triple-A this season. In 73.1 innings, he compiled 99 strikeouts and 46 walks. Dunn pitched four innings with the Yankees this year, posting a 6.75 ERA in four innings, along with five strikeouts and five walks.
UPDATE #1 (10:30 a.m. ET): Via Twitter, Jon Heyman has some more details on what's been thrown back-and-forth in trade discussions between the three teams. First, he mentions that reliever Daniel Schlereth may have been included in the Diamondbacks' package going to Detroit. He also says that the Yankees don't want to give up four prospects in this deal.
(via Tiger Tracks on Twitter)
UPDATE #2: Morosi is now corroborating Heyman's report that the Yankees are balking at giving up four players in this trade, especially when they'd only be getting one in return. According to Morosi's source, the chances of this now happening are "not good."
UPDATE #3 (11:45 a.m. ET): According to the New York Daily News' Mark Feinsand, the Tigers "may be caving" on their price for Granderson. Subsequently, trade talks appear to be alive once again (via Heyman).
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I'm still not liking this deal either.
The Tigers need to be getting a more heir-apparent than some other teams CF prospect.
My Music: Some Sorta Giant
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Hughes instead of Coke
and I’m all for it. Doesn’t sound like the Yankees want any part of this deal as it is though, so I’m sure they wouldn’t want to sweeten the pot.
No.
It is customary to have a major league centerfielder. We do this, we don’t have one.
by rook34 on Dec 8, 2009 10:30 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Post has been updated
Morosi says it’s not looking good for this, as the Yankees don’t like the idea of giving up four prospects.
by Ian Casselberry on Dec 8, 2009 10:36 AM EST reply actions
Probably not gonna happen
but IF it did, I would have to assume a LH reliever or two could then be moved for another piece. I can’t see Detroit going into camp with 4 LH relievers on roster (Coke, Seay, Ni, Thomas)
you think thomas is going to make the roster?
by Tigersin2010 on Dec 8, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
DD has been quoted as saying that they expect him to contribute at the big league level
And I keep thinking “Clete” at first when you say “Thomas”
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 10:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
do you know
what happened to LHP Thomas that he suddenly became of the radar?
by Tigersin2010 on Dec 8, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
I'd never heard of him until yesterday
All I know about him is that he had a really high ERA with the Twins and that he’s been pitching in Korea for the past few years
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 11:12 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well, hopefully that's one bullet dodged
Problem is, most guns have more than one bullet
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 11:13 AM EST via mobile reply actions
not so fast
Heyman now saying the deal has some life left
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/statuses/6467827349
New York Daily News says the Tigers may be "caving"
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 11:40 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The deal from last night wasn't exactly great
But removing a player we’d be receiving hurts too.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
per heyman on twitter...
It is alive again. Going to go throw up.
by rook34 on Dec 8, 2009 11:39 AM EST via mobile reply actions
OT: Hessman
just signed w Mets
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/mets/2009/12/breaking-news-mets-sign-player.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:nydnrss/blogs/mets(Blogs/Surfing+the+Mets)
Good for him.
Maybe he’ll get some actual PT with the big club this way. Also, post a FanShot for it.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
Via @blessyouboys
From Joe Pawlikowski: The Yanks beat writers just bolted the press room en masse.
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I'll be honest...
…I’ve warmed up to this a bit overnight. I thought about it, and we are getting a sizable return for Granderson. I think the worst part is that he’d be wearing pinstripes next year. The image of Curtis in those clothes will burn my retinas.
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End of the day, it's not an awful deal
Look at the numbers and in the end I think it works out. My only concern is if Jackson (Yankees, not ours) can cover CF at Comerica with two side fielders that aren’t exactly spry anymore.
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by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
But whatever happened to "We don't HAVE to trade Grandy"
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 11:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
You're right, we don't HAVE to.
I don’t really classify Scherzer or Coke as prospects anymore. Scherzer is proven and could be a potentially explosive starter. Coke has proven he is an extremely effective relief man, 7.4 K/9 last season. Austin Jackson is the big question mark for me, I’m concerned about if he can cover CF or not.
The return on this deal isn’t the worst thing in the world if DD thinks it will make the Tigers a better team in the long run. Don’t forget that our payroll absolutely plummets in 2011 and DD may be thinking long-term on this one. If two of the players the Tigers receive turn out well, we’ll be in a great position in December next year to make a long-term run. Remember Scherzer is making peanuts until after the 2011 season.
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by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
I am just curious
what makes you think Jackson might not be able to handle centre field other than that he is a rookie and comerica is huge (both good reasons). I’ve just been looking on the net and
the few reports I have read suggests he has above range and a good arm.
It’s having to cover for Carlos Guillen and Magglio Ordonez on either side of him that John’s questioning, I believe.
by Ian Casselberry on Dec 8, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
i am withholding judgment.
Have to get major league players. If it is a bag of prospects, I am totally against it. The worst word in baseball is prospect. Prospects are players other teams have given up on in most cases.
by rook34 on Dec 8, 2009 11:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
agreed
after the initial shock, it isn’t a bad deal for the Tigers. Not a great deal, but it’s hard to say it’s bad, after further thought, if the Tigers are getting Scherzer, who looks to be a cheap, solid number 2 right now, and has potential to get better (of course, his mechanics make one wonder a bit). I mean, a package of Scherzer/Jackson at the top would probably be a bit too much for Granderson alone. While adding Jackson should theoretically, IMO, bring more, it probably isn’t a deal breaker.
I’m just more pissed that the Yankees look like they are about to commit high way robbery. I am not a fan of Kennedy or Jackson, and Coke/Dunn are pen arms. I think most organizations have a Kennedy type – an end of the rotation strike thrower, and I think Jackson is overhyped. He’s solid, but he’s not a top level talent, IMO. Solid defensively, but probably not plus. Bat was heavily supported by an unsustainable BABIP this year, and he hasn’t shown much power. There’s still an outside chance it develops, but when a guy is in AAA, hoping on that isn’t the wisest course, IMO. Not a top of the order bat, and not a middle of the order bat, IMO.
Exactly
Hughes/Jackson to the Tigers, Kennedy to the D-Backs, Granderson to the Yankees, Jackson to the D-Backs, Scherzer to the tigers
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
update:
10:33am: Heyman tweets that this deal is “back with a chance.” Mark Feinsand of the New York Daily News agrees, noting that the Tigers “may be caving” on the price for Granderson. Wouldn’t be the Winter Meetings without three-team trade scenarios and the constant back-and-forth.
A lifelong Tigers fan
Via Jim Leyland
Well, the fake one anyway
Finalizing a deal with the Yanks…making sure they send over a box of cigs.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
Further details from Leyland
“All the rumors you hear are true… I had explosive diarrhea yesterday.”
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by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
I am secretly chanting "phil hughes, phil hughes, phil hughes" in my head
upon hearing this might be back on. I do what I can to influence things.
Buster Olney:
One of the teams involved in the proposed three-way Granderson trade continues to push the recast deal on Tuesday morning that would conclude with the Yankees getting both Granderson and Edwin Jackson.
BOTH?
Wait, what? I can’t imagine the D-Backs would have anything to do with this deal if the Yankees ended up with both of those players.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, who knows what the DBacks would be getting in this deal.
But I bet it’s not them pushing for this.
Given that change, I don't think so
They were the ones pushing it last night. This smells like the Yankees starting it up again this morning.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Arizona?
Hopefully not us.
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 11:56 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm leaning Yankees on the restart here
Makes no sense that the D-Backs would approach both sides with the proposal ending in them gathering nothing but prospects.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
So the Yankees would implode their farm system for Grandy and Jackson
For the deal to go down AND for it to still be three teams, how many prospects would they have to give up? 7, 8?
I root for the Tigers, Pistons, Red Wings and yes, the Lions.
www.twitter.com/zajareich
And considering they were reluctant to give up four...
I’m confused
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 11:58 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yankees farm system:
aka trade fodder.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
More from Buster:
The Tigers are the team that’s re-ignited this morning’s conversations about the three-way trade with Arizona and the Yankees. They have lowered their asking price, according to sources. One version proposed had the Yankees getting both Curtis Granderson and Edwin Jackson, but it may be that Jackson ends up in Arizona.
They slept on it
I’d like to think they came to the same conclusion I did: this isn’t a bad deal at the end of the day, especially long-term.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I'm okay with them reevaluating the deal that was proposed
But does “lowered their asking price” mean lowered from higher than the deal down to the deal, or down from the deal to something less than the deal? If that makes any sense. I’d be upset about anything less than this Scherzer/Jackson/Dunn/whatever deal.
And even more from Buster:
The Diamondbacks are negotiating with the idea that they are going to get both Edwin Jackson and Ian Kennedy. There is growing confidence on at least two sides on the three-team deal that this has a good chance to get done. One source who had placed the odds at 20 percent at 9 a.m. ET texted at 11 a.m. that the odds were up to 30 percent.
I'll take the 70 %
Unless the Tigers get all the pieces they (and I) want.
I root for the Tigers, Pistons, Red Wings and yes, the Lions.
www.twitter.com/zajareich
Eh.
Most of Willis’ contract was most likely recouped via insurance. Same for Bonderman. Part of Guillen’s as well, seeing as he missed almost three months.
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by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
I was thinking the same thing
There’s one guy I’d like to hear from right now. I know it’ll never happen, but still.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
curtis loves new york.
He is probably excited. DD and Mr. I are going to have one hell of a time spinning this. Some of the hardcore fans will accept this. The majority of fans will not accept this at all.
by rook34 on Dec 8, 2009 12:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Forget that picture I Photoshopped last night
We need to Photoshop vultures into a picture of Granderson
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 12:16 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Hope they get this thing done
I think both Max Scherzer and Austin Jackson would be fantastic guys to add. I think they both have higher upsides then Jackson and Grandy. Add in a couple of good pieces and I really like the deal
"There are no next times when you're competing for big things." - Tom Izzo
Go Spartans
@SI_JonHeyman
latest 3-way looks something like this: yanks get granderson; dbacks e-jax, i.kennedy; tigers scherzer, schlereth, a-jax, coke.
Yes
The Yankees are keen on lowering their cost of this deal.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Well, the deal certainly lowered in value
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by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
tbh, it kind of makes more sense to me this way. it kind of felt like the yanks were overpaying for grandy – a-jax, kennedy, coke, and dunn? but the dbacks were only giving up scherzer to get e-jax AND kennedy.
So, what’s the deal with Schlereth? Any good?
They pretty much just substituted one lefty reliever for another
Bringing up last night’s question: Do we really need all these lefty relievers?
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 12:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No
Not to mention Schlereth is a downgrade.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
So Dunn is effectively replaced with Schlereth.
Witch seems to be only a slight improvement for us.
by StringTheory on Dec 8, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Improvement?
It’s a downgrade from what I can tell.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'm comparing top 20 prospects at minorleagueball.com.
by StringTheory on Dec 8, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
*blink*
I’m comparing stats. Schlereth hasn’t shown any indication of improving.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
But keep in mind he was a first round pick last year,
and has less than 40 minor league innings under his belt. It’s way, way too small of a sample size.
by StringTheory on Dec 8, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
The world is littered with first-round baseball draftees
End of the day, we’re really comparing this green apple to this red apple and trying to decide which one is subjectively better.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
He has barley been around
and last year he played for 4 diff levels. Its hard to improve and make consitant progress when bounceing around that much. Id take Schlereth over Dunn in a heartbeat
"There are no next times when you're competing for big things." - Tom Izzo
Go Spartans
@SI_JonHeyman
3-way talk with granderson to yanks, e. jackson to dbacks, young guys to tigers "progressing,’’ sources say. definitely a shot.
thats what happens
When you cave. You get lowballed with prospects no onme wants.
by rook34 on Dec 8, 2009 12:33 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Buh?
When did Scherzer and Coke become nothing?
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
I’m starting to feel like AZ is really taking both us and the Yanks to town on this one. E-Jax seems more valuable than Scherzer to me, why do they need Kennedy too? Give him to us and keep Schlereth.
Scherzer is young and has a huge upside
Scherzer, from what I’ve seen, has Verlander-esque potential.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, you're right.
Scherzer has proven almost as much as E-Jax in the bigs, but has more potential. But Kennedy seems like a lot to fill that gap, I don’t know.
the only one getting screwed is the Yanks
giving up all that for just Grandy. Id love to see the dbacks and us fleece them
"There are no next times when you're competing for big things." - Tom Izzo
Go Spartans
"for just Grandy"
My heart hurts a little when I hear that.
I root for the Tigers, Pistons, Red Wings and yes, the Lions.
www.twitter.com/zajareich
They ARE giving up a ton.
And I love Curtis as much as anybody, but it does feel like he might have reached his potential and never break through against lefties.
really?
an end of the rotation arm in Kennedy, a decent defensive CF who has an average bat at best, and 2 pen arms? For a 3+ WAR player on a cheap, cost-controlled contract? Sure, Granderson has his holes, and that’s partly why I didn’t think he’d net as much as some folks thought, but that’s highway robbery, imo, for the Yankees.
You have to remember
Granderson is the face of the team to most fans. That’s worth something for the purposes of our discussion. Especially when he’s going to the Yankees.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
I guess it depends how much you think of Kennedy and A-Jax
But A-Jax was something like the #24 prospect in baseball a year ago, and I think Kennedy still has some potential that he may tap into.
sure
that was last year for A-Jax. Look at where he is now. He just came off a season with a insanely high OBP. He strikes out a lot for a guy with little power. Sure, the bat speed is still there to think it may potentially develop, but when a guy reaches AAA, even at a young age, you can’t keep hoping. There’s been very little indication that the power will be there. He’s not a top of the order bat either, and he isn’t a plus defender.
As for Kennedy, I just think most organizations have a Kennedy type. He really doesn’t project more than a 4/5 starter who might have a fluke year and be a decent mid-rotation arm once in awhile. His stuff is fairly average.
I know Grandy is the face of this team
I just think he is overrated. He cant hit leftys he strikes out a ton, he arm is just avg. On top of all that he really hasnt improved a lot from year to year without losing in other spots.
"There are no next times when you're competing for big things." - Tom Izzo
Go Spartans
This is part of my thinking
The Tigers might not be keen on trying to develop his hitting and may think his habit of being garbage against lefties will be difficult to break and not worth the time.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
way i look at it
Yankees – committing highway robbery.
Tigers – decent deal if they can land a potential TOR guy in Scherzer.
D-backs – I have no idea what their purpose is. Scherzer’s cheaper and better than Edwin Jackson, and Ian Kennedy is an end of the rotation arm. For a team with some financial problems, and a team that is rebuilding, I don’t get why they’d move Scherzer. Maybe Josh Byrnes will turn out to be a genius.
I agree
Unless A-Jax turns out to be an amazing player.
I have no idea why the D-backs would do this deal.
Also, Scherzer is a GREAT hitter whereas Jackson is not.
by Tigersin2010 on Dec 8, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
I'm assuming that you meant pitcher
Max Scherzer’s a starting pitcher.
Think he meant hitter
Although I highly doubt NL teams put much weight, if any, on the hitting prowess of pitchers when doing deals.
The Tigers will just have to set up their rotation for interleague play
Make sure Scherzer pitches as much as possible.
I root for the Tigers, Pistons, Red Wings and yes, the Lions.
www.twitter.com/zajareich
Haha, Schlereth is Mark Schlereth's son
Football player, now an analyst for ESPN. Didn’t know that, interesting.
Funny enough, I did
He’s kind of on the short side, too
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 12:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I remember Mark Sclereth coming on Baseball Tonight the night
his son made his major league debut.
by StringTheory on Dec 8, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Can A-Jax lead off?
If so, it’s a good deal.
Scherzer will be amazing, better than Jackson.
Knapp will help him a lot to keep the walks down and go 7+
Coke and Schlereth are both good pieces.
We just have be 100% sure that A-Jax will be a good lead-off/igniter
Grandy wasn't exactly a good leadoff man either
I’d still like to see someone aside from Grandy there, even if this deal fails.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
by john.kmiecik on Dec 8, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
True
But if Granderson stays, who else could lead off? We have no-one (especially after we signed Everett rather than Scutaro). That is why getting A-Jax is so big for me—-IF HE COULD LEAD OFF
by Tigersin2010 on Dec 8, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Hahaha
No.
Again, Austin Jackson is a toolsy CF who has yet to make good on those tools to a sufficient enough degree that I’d want to trade Curtis Granderson for him.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
You know the old saying
“The team that wins the deal is the on that got the best player”
Well the Tigers are doing that by adding Scherzer
"There are no next times when you're competing for big things." - Tom Izzo
Go Spartans
And we do so without giving him any major $$$$ for many years
meaning we can sign Verlander.
Verlander, Scherzer, Porcello = bright future
This.
I think something that we all missed was the huge payoff two+ years down the road.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
And, if we dump Jackson and Grandy, are we going to be able to sign anyone worthwhile this winter?
I know the plan was to reduce the payroll, but it would be nice if we could pick up a semi-big FA along with this. I haven’t really been paying much attention to what’s out there, though.
we also have a good amount coming off the books next year
mags, bondo, nate, willis all gone
"There are no next times when you're competing for big things." - Tom Izzo
Go Spartans
Seems like a lot of those names that I like will be out of our price range.
Halladay, Lee, Beckett…Mauer and Pujols are there too of course, but I expect they’ll have deals done with their current teams before next year.
Crawford is an interesting name, though. Or Rollins?
Rollins is over the hill
"There are no next times when you're competing for big things." - Tom Izzo
Go Spartans
ding ding ding
we take one year off and we set are selves up great for the future
"There are no next times when you're competing for big things." - Tom Izzo
Go Spartans
What's wrong with treading water?
Plus the Indians are projected to be a lot better in 2011
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
we will have raised the white flag for 2010
In december 2009. Look at our lineup. I will wait to hear your screams of terror.
by rook34 on Dec 8, 2009 1:11 PM EST via mobile reply actions
where is the production coming from?
We will have dumped our 1 and 2 hitter, our third baseman is in leg casts, our second baseman has a broken ankle.
by rook34 on Dec 8, 2009 1:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i am not trying to argue.
I am disappointed that this is where we are at. We have been sold the bit on going with kids forever. The one time we were close was when we went out and bought players, combined with kids. I just see this as a big step backward.
by rook34 on Dec 8, 2009 1:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Look at the post right above your original one.
$60m coming off the books after next season. What else do you want? We can’t do it this year, it’s not possible. No one is just going to take our bad contracts.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
if we spend next year, i would buy it.
I am not optimistic that we will. Attendance will fall to 2004 levels. That can be used as an excuse to not spend next offseason. Does this help us sign JV or Rick long term? And I am not trying to be a smart aleck. I don’t know that it does. Sure, it frees up money, but can DD look JVs agent in the face and say we are trying to win?
by rook34 on Dec 8, 2009 1:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Cabrera will have a huge year and Maggs will pick up where he left off
If Guillen has a bounce back year and Inge stays healthy, we’re fine.
The pitching will carry us again anyways
@ed_price
#Diamondbacks and #Tigers waiting on #Yankees to sign off on 3-way deal. Answer expected by 2 pm Eastern
I can't make up my mind on this trade.
I wish we were getting one more positional prospect. That would put me over the hump.
Same here
But hey, A-Jax + Scherzer makes me happy. Coke helps a whole helluva lot too.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
it's a go if that is the status
yankees getting the most out of this deal
It's occured to me...
We really aren’t getting what we “need” out of this. On the Yankees’ side, we’d get a CF (which is only a need because Grandy’s going to the Yanks) and one, maybe two, lefty relievers, which we’ve pretty much agreed that we don’t need. So really the only net gain is Scherzer, and I don’t think he’s worth both Jackson and Granderson
Downgrade at CF
Upgrade at SP… I really wish we could get more than relief prospects though.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
I suppose I should be used to it
Cecil…Pudge…now Grandy…they ALL get traded to the Yankees eventually.
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
What is it with players I like going to the Yankees?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Good thing I don't hate the Yankees...
My baseball guru (Yankees fan) is going to be thrilled, but he’ll tell me the Yankees should have given up more for him (and that would be his honest opinion).
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
It's definitely kind of an odd deal.
Basically some straight swaps for proven players at CF and SP for a prospect CF and a less-proven but higher ceiling SP. With some relievers thrown in.
Just have to look towards next year…all that extra money, then it’s time to fill some holes and get serious, and hope A-Jax and Scherzer worked out.
Close to $10mm
We better spend that on something…
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Verlander, probably
Unless he’s on the block too
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah,
if Dombrowski wanted to justify this trade to skeptical fans, signing Verlander this offseason would help.
My fear is that we need it for the big three pitching contract blunders
and might not have much of it to dispose.
Oh dear
I like what the Tigers are getting back. My head knows this would be a savvy move with an eye toward 2010 and beyond. However, when I think of losing Granderson, I want to vomit.
Not my boy Curtis :(
Ugh I don’t want him gone, I might vomit too Walrus. And my username will be a waste too.
sorry, a lil humor in a sad time. I’m not happy about this.
it's sad to see him go
Durty Curty is my Tigers. My head realizes that A-Jax is an elite prospect, likely to be as good (if a somewhat different) a CF as Curtis, and that Scherzer for Jackson is an upgrade. It also saves a lot of money, brings in some bullpen help, and makes it more likely to get Verlander locked up (which everyone seems to be forgetting). Still, I love Curtis Granderson.
*sigh
Why is Austin Jackson so good, in your mind?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Scherzer is a potential ace
He’s got some issues with his mechanics, but tons of upside. It’s not him I don’t understand- it’s the 4th OF we’re getting from NY.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Scherzer IS a good player.
There is no doubt. Check all the threads. No one has said a bad thing about Scherzer aside from a little tweak. He’s all upside and he’s already GOOD.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
Scherzer is a nice player
And will be a nice pitcher. Jackson bugs me, I think he’s a bit hit or miss. Worries me a lot
I saw Scherzer pitch against us in interleague game
2 years ago. He was good. It was a 1-1 game till Matt Joyce hit a HR in the 9th!
Tammy
I've watched quite a few D'Backs games the past couple years
Scherzer throws hard, but has trouble pitching deep into games
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
We are getting SOLID pieces
Just really worried with A-Jax. Can anyone say more about him?
I'm not a big fan of sabremetrics
Got anything traditional or observational?
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Again
Good bat speed but his BA is still below 300. 40 walks to 123 strikeouts, so he can’t take a pitch. Supposedly has power, but has slugged around .400 the past two seasons. Supposedly good speed but it sure as hell hasn’t translated on the basepaths (24 SB to 4 CS is okay, but not what you’d expect from a burner). I’ve heard his glove is ok, but needs a lot of work.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Sure, if you want a guy who hits about .270 and on bases .330 leading off
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Jackson is now tasked the unenviable job...
of replacing the team’s most-liked player and defending the deal to an infuriated fanbase.
Good luck, kid.
And Tigers fans tend to be suspicious
Look how they treated Miggy and Lyon when they first came to Detroit.
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
comes down to whether or not his bat can develop
he can stick in centerfield. People are still hoping that the bat speed will lead to some power, because he’s really not a top of the order guy. I don’t have a great comparison right now … I guess he could be a better Melky Cabrera, but that’s not anything that you’d want in a trade like this.
I still don’t get why the Diamondbacks made this move, which makes me wonder if they know, or feel, something about Scherzer’s mechanics/health (or, I guess, they could really love Ian Kennedy).
That's what worries me.
Don’t understand why Arizona is willing to let him go if he’s got that much upside.
I HATE THIS TRADE!
Should have happened yesterday…another December 7th that will live in infamy.
Austin Jackson
He’s 22 years old, will be 23 when the season starts. Just hit .300/.354/.405 in a full season at AAA with 4 HR, 23 2B, 24 SB.
(By comparison, Curtis spent his age 22 season and didn’t appear in the majors at all until age 24.)
Baseball Prospectus last year named A-Jax their #46 prospect
Jackson is a true leadoff hitter
Granderson is not. Jackson will probably be the starting CF this year for the Tigers. Blah.
what makes you say that?
if you are right, then i’m happy
Say that he'll start in CF or that he's a true leadoff hitter?
The reason he’ll start in CF is because there’s no one else who can start there and play solid D, he’d be the guy.
The reason he’s a true leadoff hitter is because he’s speedy and hits for a good average (.300 in AAA last year) but no power, which makes him more of a leadoff hitter while Curtis is a #5 or #3
Jackson's a"true" leadoff hitter?
How’s that? I’m focusing more on the “true” aspect. He’s a high strikeout guy who doesn’t walk a ton. Could he leadoff? I guess, but to me, as of now, AJax leading off would be in the same vein as Granderson leading off – passable if need be, but not really “true”.
I know none of us are totally sold on the Granderson side of this deal.
But DD basically turned Matt Joyce into Scherzer. Can’t complain too much about that.
+1
I thought about that last night. I don’t like the outlook for next year, but beyond that this could be good
by mich_n_trum84 on Dec 8, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Then again
He also turned Granderson into A-Jax, Scherlieth and Coke… not horrible, but you gotta think we could have done better.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
AAAAAAGH
This trade doesn’t make any sense… we’re acquiring two good prospects and a pair of lefty relievers? Either DD’s an idiot or we’re missing something crucial.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Yeah, he's really bad at managing teams.
Doesn’t know what he’s doing at all.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
Okay
A good ML player, a decent prospect and two lefty relievers.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
i think their thinking is:
A good ML player who will be great, a top 50 prospect in all of MLB, a future closer and a good LHP reliever
Whose the future closer in that bunch?
Coke?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
To go with the 10 other "future closers" in our system?
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
So
We get Scherzer, Coke, Scherleth and Jackson at final word?
Still don’t like it… we don’t need more bullpen prospects.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Schlereth is a future closer
He has great stuff
add in that
I’m still not sure why the D-backs are letting Scherzer go, which puts red flags in my mind. Of course, they could just love Ian Kennedy. Either Josh Byrnes is brilliant … or he’s an idiot, imo. Doesn’t seem to be a middle ground on it.
then Byrnes is an idiot
Scherzer’s more talented and he’s cheaper. He’s also better right now.
Is Byrnes supposed to be that great of a GM?
It’s hard to tell by watching Tigers games because Rod Allen praises everybody
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
I was just in a meeting at work and checked my phoent o read that it's done
my hands are shaking now that I’m back at my desk.
At least you can go home and sulk soon
I still have yet to go to work
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
The only thing that could brighten my day
Would be Carlos Guillen for Milton Bradley. Make it happen, DD!
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
But now we have no Grandy to balance out Bradley's negative vibes
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, the way the media will spin this.
We may as well close down the franchise, they’ll say.. Get ready for another round of Detroit is the nadir of civilization articles. They’ve probably had them ready to go.
I'm never reading Lynn Henning again
He’s going to be crowing about this for the next hundred years
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe...
one of the left handed relievers will be flipped in another, beneficial deal? :fingers crossed:
More bullpen arms?
DD seems to be suffering from a reliever fetish.
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
i agree
we have a bunch of lefty arms now, both with the tigs and on the farm. one or more will go, along with a c. thomas or raburn, for a left fielder
Hmm
Seay and Thomas could net us a nice little piece… maybe a #3 or #4 pitcher.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Always a chance
That this will spell another deal. Who knows, the Tigers still have holes to be filled.
I swear to Jesus
In 2011 we better have the best f*ckin bullpen in baseball, or I’m burning down DD’s house.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
So that deal "we" were hating on when it included that Dunn guy...
…is now getting completed, apparently, without Dunn being in the picture?
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And he's being replaced
By Daniel Scherleith from ARI… better choice.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
It is a better choice
But I still think we could’ve gotten more for Grandy. And if it was all about Scherzer, I would rather have given up Jackson and, say, one of our million relief prospects and left the Yankees out of the whole thing.
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Huh, maybe I should actually read what's on byb before commenting
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4725108
The ESPN story that sent me scurrying over here (busy busy day at work up ‘til now) didn’t mention Scherlieth at all.
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Just know you guys are gettin a great kid in Ajax.
He’s been my favorite prospect for years. He’ll probably need another half season in AAA but his upside is absolutely tremendous. Yeah he didnt hit for much power last yr but he was under mandate from the Yanks FO to cut down on his swing and try and hit liners opposite field to RF. He plays a good CF and is extremely athletic. If his power comes around you guys just won this trade in a landslide.
Coke is meh. Pretty much a loogy, gives up gopherballs too much but is solid other than that little problem.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
I do like Coke
But I just have problems seeing anything great in A-Jax. Thanks for coming over to console us.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Not that it matters that he’s been my fav. prospect or that he’s a good kid but you’ll definitely like him.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
I think his AAA time is officially up.
Because I am not going to watch Raburn try to play center for half a season.
thanks for the info
i’m not sure you guys didn’t get hosed. Grandy, though a great guy, is marginal as a major-leaguer. Poor against lefties, lots of K’s. He should like the new stadium, though.,
I wouldnt say he's a "marginal major leaguer"
3.4 WAR in CF is pretty good.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
Hope you're right
I’d like him to do well, except of course when the yanks play the tigs. He was batted out of his natural position here, and that might help him RBI and slugging ave.-wise there. He’ll be ok defensively. I (and I suspect others here) are still haunted by catchable fly balls over his head on two consecutive days late in the season.
Yea I hear you, the mistakes really stand out over anything else.
The effin platoon splits worry me the most. We just gave up our 2nd best prospect for a guy who will prob have to sit against lefties.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
.275/.358/.539 against righties
You’ll live.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
ah, the single greatest moment in cinema history
And yes, I mean that completely sincere….ah screw it, who am I kidding?
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Over at AzSnakepit (SB Nation site for the D-backs)
Seems like some D-backs fans are worried about Max’s healthy. That said, it could be the std. concerns on his mechanics and workload. Here’s hoping it works out for you guys, because Max is basically the key to this deal.
If he turns into a bullpen arm too
I’m going to hit somebody.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
We have a gazillion relief prospects on the way though
maybe late 2010, even
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
It's gonna get help too
From Ryan Perry, Daniel Scherlieth, Cody Satterwhite, Casey Fien, Phil Coke, Scott Green, Zach Simons, Luis Marte, Robbie Weinhardt. All of whom have been called closer material/setup material.
And I know I’m missing people.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Thank you 2008 draft
Complete horseshit from the FO.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Awwww...
…and Billfer was so reassuring this morning:
I’d still say that a Curtis Granderson trade is a long shot
Billfer at 1:37:
Shit. Granderson’s medical records sent to Yanks.
MLB.com is calling it a done deal...
agreed in principal…
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Dec 8, 2009 2:23 PM EST reply actions
At least I'm having the feeling of "Fine, I'll wait and see."
Not like the Jurrjens “What the fuck?” trade.
Yeah
I’m so pissed Grandy is gone, but the return isn’t horrible… except for all the fucking relievers. I AM SICK AND TIRED OF RELIEF PROSPECTS.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Scherzer is being talked about as the closer
By the mlb people
ha
wow … sorry, not trying to laugh at your situation … but wow. If that’s the case, horrible deal. Seriously. Horrible.
+1
If you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go cut myself.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Scherzer or Schlereth?
That’s one reason to hate this: Too many guys with similar-sounding names.
And from what I saw over the summer, Schlereth has good stuff but I don’t think he’s quite ready to close just yet.
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Scherzer....
He lacks a third pitch the d-backs think he is better suited for relief. that is why they traded him.
Tigers think he will be a great starter
So next year...
1) Jackson
2) Ordonez
3) Guillen
4) Cabrera
5) Raburn
6) Sizemore
7, 8, 9) Everett, Laird/Avila, Inge
Verlander, Porcello, Scherzer, Robertson, Bonderman
Closer: ?
Don't assume we're done getting rid of everyday, established baseball players.
Long way to spring training.
I could think of a few I wanna get rid of
coughCarlosGuillenNateRobertsonMagglioOrdonezcough
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Nate almost warrants a second chance
And Magglio at a reasonable salary…but not for the 18 mil or whatever it is…
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Royals
By far. Probably the Indians too.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
The pitching looks okay, if Scherzer's as good as you prospect experts say he is
Bonderman’s definitely got potential (though I don’t care much for him on a personal level), and there’s the (reasonable) possibility that the struggles of Robertson/Galarraga were due to injuries last year.
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
I <3 Bondo
He’s my Tiger, so I hope he comes back and does well.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
no idea what Leyland would do
but honestly, if those are the options for your lineup, I’d have Sizemore leadoff.
Ajax in leadoff is a bad idea.
Kid needs more time in the majors or he’s very likely to regress into a K happy singles hitter.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
End of the day, it's done.
I hope for a good 2010. I hope for a better 2011.
2100 Woodward and Twitter
2011 the year the Tigers do away with starters entirely
and just trot out a succession of bullpen prospects for an inning or two apiece…all the arms we have stockpiled, that should work, right???
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+1
And if it’s not… I know a place where we can get pitchforks and torches.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Hey, I'm reading the comments around the blogosphere
And everyone besides us Tigers fans thinks the Tigers got an amazing deal here. Granted I trust my gut as a true Tiger fan and not from an outsider perspective but something has to be said for the thought that the Tigers robbed the other two teams here.
It's not bad
PROVIDED you like A-Jax (I don’t). I do love Max Scherzer (and I learned to spell his name-lol).
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Well thats the thing
I’m not sold on A-Jax either. I thought they should have held on to Grandy for the fact that theres no real CF out there ready to take his place either here or in a trade that was being discussed. I soo hope I’m wrong.
They didn't
But the D’Backs made sure they didn’t have to.
I root for the Tigers, Pistons, Red Wings and yes, the Lions.
www.twitter.com/zajareich
Wouldn't it be more "F*cking D'Backs?"
I won’t be able to tolerate Darron Sutton’s smugness any longer
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
No
We got our new ace from them and a pretty good closer- knock on wood.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Excuse me, but I believe JV is our ace, and I hope he remains so for a long time to come
But it would please me greatly to hear opposing broadcasters say “Scherzer would be an ace on any other team’s pitching staff.”
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
You can have multiple aces
See Oakland, circa 2002.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Not so much interested in DD's take...he'll just put a bunch of spin on it
I’d like to hear Mike Illitch’s motivation. It just seems out of character
I'm losing money...
And if I’m going to keep losing money to a team that doesn’t make the playoffs, I might as well plan for the future…
I root for the Tigers, Pistons, Red Wings and yes, the Lions.
www.twitter.com/zajareich
The guy's 80 years old and desperately wants to win a World Series
Not a whole lot of “future” left…
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
$50 says we finish in the top 2 in the AL Central in 2011
Put up or shut up, negative Nancy.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Not yet
Offseason isn’t over yet.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
You figure more of our big guys'll get traded?
Excuse me while I go check on Verlander and Cabrera and make sure they’re still where they’re supposed to be…
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
No
I’m hoping we can pull off some creative bad contract swaps… I’d kinda like Pat Burrell, Milton Bradley, Kevin Millwood and Derek Lowe if we gotta spend money.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Hmm
For Dontrelle Willis, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Guillen and Nate Robertson? Tell me you wouldn’t do that.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
I would not trade Maggs for any of them
He’s overpaid, but he can still be a more positive contribution than any of them. I wouldn’t want Bradley under any circumstance anyways. The others I would have to look more closely at their contracts.
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Dude for some reaon the Yanks FO has a hard on for 2 lefties in the pen.
If we got rid of Coke and Dunn we wouldnt have a replacement. Girardi has become the master of the 3 reliever inning, it’s so effing weird.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
Yeah, I learned that during the playoffs
Girardi sure does love pitching changes. It has to drive my baseball guru nuts.
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
He didn't start doing it until they gave him the people
so maybe he asked Cashman? Either way the powers at be love having another lefty in the bullpen.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
I can see part of the reasoning
I like it when we have two (effective) lefties in the ‘pen, both because you can mix and match a little and that way you don’t overuse anyone. Did the Yankees only have Coke and Marte or was there another lefty?
by SabreRoseTiger on Dec 8, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
For the longest time it was only Coke bc Marte was injured.
Now it will be Marte and Dunn presumably. That’s why Cashman was haggling to keep Dunn because there would be nobody to replace him for a year or so.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
De facto Overflow
There’s a new post about this up, if for no other reason than to reset the discussion on this trade.
Thanks for following along.
Okay, dumb joke coming up that you probably won't find funny
I just thought of something. Phil Coke’s gonna have to do something about his name. I believe Comerica Park’s beverage contract with with Pepsi.
GROAN
Channelling my sense of humor, are we?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
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