Miguel Cabrera's Mounting a MVP Charge
by Ian Casselberry on Aug 27, 2009 2:31 PM EDT
in Detroit Tigers News
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PrintWith Miguel Cabrera's blazing August numbers (.387/.452/.699, seven homers, 25 RBIs), his MVP candidacy is taking on some momentum. At least in the Tigersosphere.
Nationally, I'm not sure people have looked outside the Joe Mauer vs. Mark Teixeira frame yet. (Rob Neyer being an exception.) Mauer has a lot of momentum built up already, and Teixeira has the Yankees pinstripes and his team's frequent presence on national television going for him.
But Cabrera's making a surge. And if the AL Central maintains its current standings, the Tigers are going to be in a tight division race through September. Could that frame the debate a little bit differently, as either Cabrera or Mauer could make the pennant-winning difference for their teams? Many voters seem to favor those who played for a winner.
Here's the discussion in the Tigersosphere so far:
At Mack Avenue Tigers, Kurt wonders if Cabrera's quiet June and July numbers (especially in terms of RBIs) might ultimately affect his candidacy.
But as he and I talked about, the MVP race might come down to voter philosophy. Should the award go to the player who had the best season? Or should it go to the player who did the most to carry his team into the playoffs?
J. Ellet Lambie takes that last point a bit further at Eye of the Tigers, looking at Cabrera's impact on the Tigers and where his numbers stack up against the rest of the American League.
In addition, he believes Cabrera making this push toward the end of the season might leave more of an impression on voters as they fill out their ballots. His familiarity among baseball writers likely won't hurt either.
On the latest edition of MLive.com's Cutoff Man Podcast, James Schmehl and I talk about Cabrera's chances against Mauer and Teixeira. I worry that the debate has already been framed among voters, but Cabrera might put up the kinds of numbers - at just the right time - that simply can't be ignored.
You can download the podcast here or listen to streaming audio at MLive.com.
This last point doesn't necessarily have much to do with the MVP debate, but remember when it was looking as if the Tigers might not have a player finish with 100 RBIs for the season? (Cabrera had 62 after the first week of August.)
Forget about that, now that BigMig has 82 RBIs with approximately five weeks left in the season.
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Joe Mauer is the MVP
Everyone else is competing for second.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
get out of my head
that being said, it’d be awesome if Miggy was it. I’m not holding out much hope, though.
I actually like Joe Mauer
Good player, good catcher. Only fault I can see is that he’s a Twink.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Joe Mauer SHOULD be the MVP
but the people who vote don’t actually give it to the most deserving one.
by Kurt Mensching on Aug 27, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Case in point: Alex Rodriguez won the MVP in 2003 with the last-place Rangers. Other than the lockout year, the previous AL MVP who wasn’t on a playoff team came in 1991, Cal Ripken, unless I glanced over the lists too quickly.
Strangely, in the NL it doesn’t seem to matter whether or not a team was in the playoffs.
Baseball-Reference: MVPs | Postseason results
That’s why there’s room for debate.
by Kurt Mensching on Aug 27, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Any sportswriter that doesn't vote for Joe Mauer deserves to have their ballot taken away
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
The only way Miguel has a chance is if the majority of writers, erroneously in my opinion, think the MVP is the best player for a playoff club.
Otherwise, there should be no debate that Mauer is the MVP. He’s a catcher leading the league in BA, OBP, and SLG. If he hadn’t been injured to start the year, he’d lead the league in total bases (which Cabrera currently does).
Miguel is far and away our best player. But he’s not the best player in the league.
Given that the Twins are still in the playoff race
I will get behind the support for Mauer. What he has done this season is incredible. I will say that the team’s position in the standings SHOULD affect whether or not a player garners MVP consideration. Too often the award goes to a player having the best offensive season, while playing for a loser (ARod and Dawson come to mind).
Also of note, Minnesota went 11-11 without Mauer for the first month of the season, since then they are 52-53. Obviously there are other factors at work here, and if you were to simply look at these types of numbers, a strong case could be made for ARod to win the award, which is obviously not going to happen, nor should it.
My point really is that I don’t think the race is as cut and dried as alot of people seem to think. I would argue that Justin Morneau is every bit as valuable as Mauer. Considering the award is the most valuable player, I think it shouldn’t be limited to the best hitter, but the player that provides the most value to his team. Mauer has Morneau, Teixeira has a tremendous lineup around him. Cabrera has been doing it all by himself, comparatively speaking. That seems more valuable to me.
Mauer > Morneau
Are we all forgetting that Joe Mauer is putting up better numbers than three slugging first basemen (Morneau, Cabrera, Texikara) while playing the most difficult position on the field? Mauer is more valuable to the Twins than Morneau- he plays a significantly more demanding position. He also hits better. He also has a reputation for fielding well.
There is no debate- this is Pujols clear.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not at all forgetting that
nor am I forgetting that while Mauer is having the best offensive season, his team has struggled to be more than a .500 club. Again, I’m not saying that team success should be the end factor, but I do think it should be a factor. Offensively, Cabrera is having a season that may be second to no one other than Mauer, but his team has been in first place nearly all season. Many Twins are having fine offensive years, no doubt helped by the fact that Mauer has performed so well. Conversly, there are very few Tigers having a good deal of success at the plate. And Cabrera has done quite well defensively as well.
Again, I’m not saying Mauer shouldn’t win, but I think the debate should be open.
Again, Mauer plays catcher
Cabrera plays 1B. That most definitely needs to be considered.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
and Hanley Ramirez plays SS
more demanding than first base. by that rationale, should he not be considered for NL MVP?
He plays a mediocre SS
And Pujols plays a phenomenal 1B. So, yes it should be, but in the end it most certainly does not beat out Pujols’ ability
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Which was bullsh!t
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 28, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Numbers
PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
Joe Mauer MIN 394 76 147 21 1 25 78 3 1 52 49 .373 .442 .622 1.064
Miguel Cabrera DET 472 77 162 30 0 27 82 3 2 46 84 .343 .407 .578 .986
Mark Teixeira NYY 480 78 137 34 0 31 95 2 0 69 85 .285 .384 .550 .934
Numbers are pretty close, except Mauer has the higher OBP/SLG/OPS. And around half the strikeouts. Miguel has more hits than both of them.
And Mauer catches
Why are people forgetting this?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Five bucks says some beatwriter uses this as an argument
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
If I do, do I get the five bucks?
Mauer has caught 80 of the Twins 127 games this season, he missed the first 22 games due to injury and has DH’d 20 times. So while he does play a more demanding position usually than Cabrera, he only plays it roughly 2/3 of the time.
I just don’t think it’s as clear as you do.
But then you have to bring up the fact that the numbers are so close despite the fact that he missed 22 games
by explosivo2k2 on Aug 27, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
It is impressive
there is nothing not impressive about Mauer’s season. But there is also very little not impressive about Cabrera’s. The fact that he missed time should be be viewed as a good thing for Mauer, however. While Mauer was completly NOT valuable to his team for the first month of the season, Cabrera has been playing nearly everyday all year.
I'm a college kid
So no.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I consume like none of that
And I hate beer…
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
good for you!
beer is to be enjoyed by the glass or bottle.
you want to get drunk, go straight to actual hard liquor.
by Kurt Mensching on Aug 27, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
About that…
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, if history is any indication, the fact that he is a catcher may hurt his case
Catchers just don’t seem to win MVPs. Pudge is the only one to have done so in the last 30 years. They seem to have the same stigma on them as pitchers do when it comes to stuff like that. Which is a shame, cuz I totally have a thing for catchers. I think it’s cuz they’re perceived as the brains of the operation. Funny enough, Mauer just doesn’t elicit much excitement from me. Not in terms of numbers, just in terms of entertainment value. I actually find him to be quite boring to watch (or frustrating, if he happens to be clobbering the Tigers). But hey, it’s the MVP award, not the Oscars.
http://tigersamateuranalysis.blogspot.com
by SabreRoseTiger on Aug 27, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
my guess would be
that catchers don’t win the award because it is such a physically demanding position that they often break down and their offense suffers. Obviously Mauer has been the exception to that rule. The Twins have down a nice job keeping him fresh and DH-ing him. Those 22 games he didn’t catch in April have probably helped keep him going, too.
everyone is overlooking one name...
Jeter. The four letter has clearly picked him as their candidate as a lifetime achievement award. I would vote mauer first and miggy second, but I think jeter wins in the end on sentiment.
by rook34 on Aug 27, 2009 3:33 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Meh
If he had this season last year, than most certainly. And while I think Captain Jetes got hosed in 2006, I still think that he doesn’t deserve it over Mauer.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
On another note (since there's no open thread)
There’s a really cool little blurb about Robbie Weinhardt at the end of this article.
Mayhaps our years of crappy bullpens are coming to a close.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
all that drafting of relievers is finally paying off!
maybe some day they’ll actually try for some position players again!
by Kurt Mensching on Aug 27, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
sure
it’s just that they happen to be ones good at grounding out to second, Aubrey Casey … or is that Sean Huff? ;)
by Kurt Mensching on Aug 27, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
But... but
He’s lefthanded!
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
We can dream...
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
There will be an open thread in the evening
Just wanted to let this debate breathe a bit.
by Ian Casselberry on Aug 27, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
BigJP does have a valid point
there are no rules or formulas for what a voter should look for when choosing an MVP. Personally, I like to think they’ll find the most unusually good season. What Mauer is doing as a catcher, whether or not he plays the position, and whether or not he was injured for a month, is simply incredible. It’s a unique season and it deserves to be honored.
But there’s nothing that says voters have to see it the same way. Maybe they do like the guy who mattered the most to a playoff team, or the guy who came the closest to the triple crown … or a pitcher. I don’t like pitchers getting the MVP, because they get their own MVP award, the Cy Young!
I don’t see the top hitting being awarded the Babe Ruth award, although if there was one we could hand it to Mauer, and call the MVP the guy who does the most for a playoff team, and everyone (read: no one) would be happy.
Or right
:D
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn't the Hank Aaron Award supposed to recognize the guy with the best offensive numbers, though?
http://tigersamateuranalysis.blogspot.com
by SabreRoseTiger on Aug 27, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
it is
That’s why I like to point out the word “valuable” when making my arguments. Mauer is having the best offensive season, bar none, but has he been more valuable than anyone else? I don’t know, maybe he has, but he certainly wasn’t valuable for the first month at all. And since his return the Twins are below .500, so again, is he really the most “valuable” player?
I think true MVP's...
get your team to the playoffs. To be completely honest though…true MVP’s bring home a ring. The LEAGUE MVP should come out of the winning team of the world series.
My Music: Some Sorta Giant
This argument seems vaguely familiar
In fact, it’s very similar to ’07, when it was A-Rod vs. Magglio (though I wonder what would have happened had the writers known then what we know now)/
http://tigersamateuranalysis.blogspot.com
Miguel winning the MVP
would take the sting from losing early in the playoffs. So I hope very much that he continues to produce at this pace. If he does, I see good odds for him winning.
I don't have a signature.
cabrera is obvious mvp and people aren't seeing that
if you really look at cabrera’s numbers they look good. but the mvp is Most Valuable Player and if you take cabrera off the tigers the tigers offense is the most pathetic in the league. Now take teixiera off the yankees they still have a good team. if you take mauer off the twins they have a bad team but they still have a decent offense. In my opinion the MVP should go to the best player on a playoff team who is most valuable to them. On the yankees they have a bunch of players having good seasons so they have no true one standout MVP canidate. On the Angels they have a bunch of players having good years but know one with MVP numbers. The rangers have michael young but they aren’t winning the divison and that is more important than the wild card. besides cabrera has better numbers than young anyway. Now mauer is having a great year but it means nothing unless the twins make the playoffs. so that leaves one team and that is the tigers and the best player on their team is cabrera and his numbers are great so he is the obvious choice for AL MVP of 2009.
that's good stuff
The Twins without Mauer are still a third place club, just as they are with him. Take Cabrera away from the Tigers and this becomes a third place team.
by BigJP on Aug 27, 2009 10:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That says more about the division and the Twinks rather than Mauer
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Aug 28, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Mauer
Tex wouldn’t even be in the conversation, if he weren’t a Yankee.
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