This Week's Poll: Should the Tigers Trade Granderson?
by Ian Casselberry on Sep 15, 2009 2:10 PM EDT
in News
56 comments
After spending all winter and most of this season beating his "the Tigers should trade Magglio Ordonez" drum, Lynn Henning has moved on to a new drum, this one about Curtis Granderson. He's suggested that the Tigers might look into trading Grandy before, and he does so again in today's Detroit News.
I'm obviously biased, as I've expressed my opinions of Granderson quite clearly. But it's hard to argue that he's had a bad year (home runs aside). For whatever reason, Grandy's suffered a major regression - especially when it comes to batting against left-handed pitching. But do the Tigers have any other players on the roster with his skill set? (And what about the premium this team has placed on defense?)
I find it difficult to believe that Dave Dombrowski would do this. And I know Henning has become an easy target in the Tigersosphere, but looking into what sort of value Granderson might have on the trade market isn't an entirely bad idea. Henning's assertion that trading Grandy could possibly "secure two front-line players" is the one that makes me scratch my head, however.
Would the Tigers be able to get full value in such a deal? At the very least, could they find a centerfielder to replace Granderson? (ThaWalrus9 suggested the Yankees' Austin Jackson last year.)
- James Schmehl has a take on Henning's column at MLive.com that's worth your time to read. (Thanks to allikazoo for posting this in the comments of our last post.)
- Mack Avenue Tigers looks at this much further in-depth, detailing Granderson's actual value to the Tigers.
I have a feeling this will be a one-sided poll, but let's go with it anyway:
Should the Tigers look into trading Curtis Granderson?
You can find the poll on the right sidebar below the FanPosts block. Or you can vote here. And if you have suggestions for future poll questions , shoot me an e-mail. Please add your thoughts in the comments.
How did our last poll go?
This one started out pretty close, but eventually the thought of a big free agent contract for Fernando Rodney seemed to scare off most people.
Should the Detroit Tigers re-sign Fernando Rodney?
37% Yes - This team needs a proven closer
62% No - He'll cost too much on the open market
Thanks to everyone who voted in the poll.
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Well, you know I don’t normally post my links here but I’m sure Ian won’t mind this once:
Talk of trading Curtis Granderson is poppycock
Why? In short: Granderson’s season still remains one of the Tigers’ best, he’s popular, and he continues to be an incredible value.
Henning should really let this go.
Ah, we posted at about the same time
I was thinking, “How did I miss that?”
by Ian Casselberry on Sep 15, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
just as I was tweeting my post I saw your tweet!
by Kurt Mensching on Sep 15, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Great piece Kurt.
Granderson’s on field value, fan value and PR value make him worth quite a bit. Granderson is probably one of the best ambassadors baseball has right now and any attention the Tigers can get outside of their market is a good thing.
see what kind of value he has
but he still young, and play’s one hell of a center field. Unless someone really wanted him and was willing to give up serious talent you keep him…
anyone who calls for grandy to be traded
is an idiot. an all-star – probably a few more times over – that will hopefully have a 15+ year career (after already putting in 5 decent seasons) deserves just the amount of patience leyland is giving him, if you ask me.
this is hilarious...
Other teams have isolated curtis’ weaknesses and exploited them. These same other teams would not offer two front line players for grandy. Grandy has to work more on eliminating the holes in his swing and the team needs to decide whether he is a long term leadoff man or a mid-lineup thumper. Grandy is trying to do everything and thusly not doing anything particularly well at the plate. We need to keep him, but he either needs to go to winter ball (unlikely) or find new voices to help him fix his approach.
by rook34 on Sep 15, 2009 2:33 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
No way
I posted about this this morning and it is ridiculous. Granderson is young, talented and cheap. There is NO WAY that any competent executive would trade him at this point in his career. Best case scenario is that you nail down some prospects who’s ceiling is the same as Granderson’s. His down year is troubling, but it is also relative. He is an highly productive major league baseball player, and will be for years to come. Consider his floor to be a Mike Cameron and his ceiling like a Torii Hunter. Now raise your hand if you’d complain about having a guy like that on your team.
they should consider it
Grandy needs to get his head back in the game and cut back on the extraciriculars. He’s like the guy in high school who did every club in school, just to get in the yearbook more. He is ok defensively, but has essentially been Josh Anderson at bat lately.
Uh, no.
Josh Anderson has 9 extra base hits THIS SEASON. He is OPSing .582 More apt comparisons please.
I said lately
might want to read the whole thing before being a jerk
Dude
Josh Anderson has one extra base hit since joining the Royals. I read the whole thing.
Depends on what we could get for him
Allow me to play devil’s advocate: if the Rays offered Evan Longoria straight up for Grandy, who here would say no to that deal from a baseball standpoint? What if the Giants offered Tim Lincecum?
Every player has his value. That being said, we shouldn’t be actively shopping Grandy any time soon.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
... still trying to replace Inge, I see ;)
But, I agree with this. No player should be untouchable. It’s just that few deals offered will approach the return you should expect for a player like Granderson.
by Kurt Mensching on Sep 15, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey now
It was just an example…
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Sep 15, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
brandon inge struggled last year terribly.
he ended up being an all-star this year and IMO should win a gold glove.
Granderson is also an all-star, and he will have a great chance at a gold glove. Every player is going to struggle at one time or another. It took an MVP a few months to even get to around a .220 BA this year(Jimmy Rollins).
Grandy is a great human being...
steroid-free, community leader, allstar. I agree with rcpratt, we shouldn’t even be having this discussion.
Tammy
I just posted this in a previous thread, but it seems more appropriate here now
Did Schmelh even fact check his own article? Aside from listing two different batting averages for Grandy this season in the span of a few paragraphs (OK, mistakes happen), he fails in simple math by stating a five-year deal signed prior to the ‘08 season somehow equates to the possibility of free agency for the 2012 season ("after the 2011 season"). Um, that would be for the 2013 season. Also, Grandy has a club option following his base contract for 2013 ($13 million club option with a $2 million buyout) that you’d imagine any halfway decent article on a player’s future would at least mention.
Regarding Grandy’s performance and contract, it was a solid deal that a lot of observers viewed as a bargain when it was signed. After a great ‘07 season and a solid ’08 campaign nothing seemingly contradicted such a view. Until this season. Now he doesn’t appear even capable of batting against lefties, after making some strides in ‘08, and has become an offensive liability late in games. Any close game with one or more men on base and Grandy coming up has turned into the opposing manager bringing in a lefty reliever to retire him. And they do. At an incredibly high rate. This along with his AVG, OBP, and SLG declining from the last two seasons does not paint a pretty picture. Basically, he doesn’t appear a capable leadoff man if he continues down the path he has this season. While he remains capable of stealing 20+ bases, this means much less when batting in the bottom half of the lineup, where he soon may find himself in even more regularity.
This offseason will be crucial for him. Owed $5.5 million, $8.25 million, and $10 million, over the next three seasons, if the Tigers believe this season will be the norm for the next three than I would absolutely be in favor of trading him for some good, young pieces. His contract is still pretty reasonable though, even with his offensive performance this season. The conception though that we signed him as a bargain will probably wane though. Anyone who watches enough games can see his weaknesses at the plate and how opposing pitchers have been exploiting them all season. He has not appeared to make any adjustments and while I’m not saying he needs to completely overhaul the very way he approaches the game in the batter’s box, any good hitter with his youth and athleticism should not fall into a black hole like he has all season. Grandy hasn’t turned 100% into Alfonso Soriano, but if you compare their numbers he’s not that far off. At least his contract isn’t nearly as ridiculous.
by ryan_matthews28 on Sep 15, 2009 3:28 PM EDT reply actions
Value
Fangraphs puts his on-field value this year at $14.4 Million, which would make him a bargain even if he plays as “bad” as he’s playing this year for the next two. All of the complaints/criticisms that you have are correct and they are things that need to be worked on. However, trading him implies that the Tigers don’t think that he’s capable of improving and that this, what many would call his worst season in most respects, is as good as he will get. I don’t see how that’s a reasonable conclusion to reach.
Well it would be a reasonable conclusion if the Tigers on good merit believe that the Curtis of '09 will continue. Will it? Hope not.
Fangraphs also values Clete Thomas at $8.3 million, Brett Gardner at $8.6 million, and Jamey Carrol at $8.3 million to name a few. There are certainly some flaws in how they calculate those numbers and on the whole they do not accurately reflect value in the real world sense. Or do you really think the Tigers (or any team for that matter) should be paying Justin Verlander $31.1 million a year?
by ryan_matthews28 on Sep 15, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Good Points
You got me there—clearly the values aren’t indicative of what a player’s salary should be in all cases. Excellent counterexamples. Still, I wonder whether those values aren’t totally off base with what a player earns for the team in Revenue. Justin Verlander’s contribution to the team’s wins improves ticket sales, merchandise, ad revenue etc. Perhaps his value to the team is $31.1 million per year after all, which, based on some common business hiring/compensation practices would deserve a salary of about $10.3 million—which is probably close to what he would command on the open market, if not a little more. By that measure, Granderson’s value this season makes his 2009 contract a bargain, but he would be roughly break-even if he continues it next year, and looks like a bad deal down the line.
In the end that very well could be true on Verlander as well
With the significant underperformance we are currently getting on contracts to Willis, Bonderman, Robertson, Guillen, and Ordonez, it becomes even more important for other players on the team to match or exceed their contract base performance. Another albatross (however slight this may be considering his “reasonable” deal) around our necks is the last thing we need right now or in the near future.
by ryan_matthews28 on Sep 15, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
WBC
Has anybody brought up the idea that perhaps the WBC stunted Curtis’ ability to adequately prepare for the season, and got him started off on the wrong foot? He looked as lost in the WBC as he does today in some at bats and it makes me wonder if there are things that he could have worked on in Spring Training that are just too difficult to adjust “on the fly” during the season, when you have games everyday and are always facing new pitchers etc. For the amount of blame that many people lay on the WBC for hurting their teams’ players, the Tigers fanbase hasn’t really brought it up. Just curious.
Is it though?
Seriously—nobody has really used it as an excuse for Granderson at all this year, which is why it got me thinking. Does losing out on a legitimate Spring Training have an effect? We’ve seen how Granderson’s training discipline helped him leading into 2008 (as it pertained to lefties—his stated off-season goal). Is it possible that not being able to focus on the flaws in his swing (major pulling, facing inside pitches, flyballs) in an instructional setting has delayed the resolution of those issues?
I'd forgotten about this
But I remember Jim Leyland was pretty concerned during the spring that Grandy wasn’t getting enough at-bats. Who knows what sort of setback that might have created, but it’s something to consider.
by Ian Casselberry on Sep 15, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
That's probably because no Americans watch the WBC or even know what Americans played in it.
Honestly, I had no idea Grandy played in it before today.
Trade Lloyd McClenddon to the Twins!!!
Maybe they will all try to pull the ball, hit .250, try to knock fastballs three feet up out of the zone for the seats, swing at first pitches everytime, look ridiculous swinging at curves and sliders, never wait for your pitch, get a hitch in your stroke that decreases your average until mid-season and get paid for it!!! Go away Lloyd bring back the old Curtis that had patience at the plate. Get the guy who taught Avila to bat to teach the rest of the Tigers about stretching pitch counts and making pitchers uncomfortable!!!
This is a lot of it
It’s not just Grandy that’s having an off year. For the most part the whole team is not hitting as well as they have in the past. You could place some of it on the other guys getting older, but generally it’s the power that decreases not a drastic drop in .avg like we’ve seen.
Just look at how much better the pitching staff has been this year. Sometimes you just need a new perspective on how to fix things.
Listen
You should always listen to trades, but they need to learn from the White Sox who unloaded Nick Swisher after a uncharacterstically bad 08 and is bouncing back nicely this year. Different skill sets, but I think the odds are better that this is more an anomoly than a trent.
granderson
the only way i would trade granderson is if the tigers can get prince fielder. they would need to give up more than granderson but a couple of middle prospects for fielder i would do any day of the week. they can sign someone else to be their centerfielder and hopefully resign granderson when he is a free agent and make sure fielder has a long term contract.
You don't trade a young, talented player after ONE BAD YEAR.
Slumps happen. You give a guy a chance to bounce back or when he does return to form it’w with someone else and then your name keeps coming up when people bring up one-sided trades to laugh at.
Of course, listen – but because it’s impolite to ignore people when they talk to you. :)
"For myself I am an optimist - it does not seem to be much use being anything else." -- Winston S. Churchill
No.
He might not be a leadoff hitter, but he needs to stay.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Sep 15, 2009 4:19 PM EDT reply actions
No way
I think Grandy is occasionally overhyped, but this contract is still a great value. Even in this down year, he’s putting up good numbers. He plays outstanding defense, and he runs the bases very well. He’s a team leader, and up there with Inge for face of the organization/role model for kids.
If he had a $30 million a year contract through 2013, I could see this conversation, but he’s a great deal for what they are paying him, even if the rest of his years are as “bad” as his numbers (27 HRs and 20SB through mid-September) are.
For what it’s worth, here is Curtis’ value, according to fangraphs, over the last few years:
2006: $14.3
2007: $30.2
2008: $17.0
2009: $14.4
So, at an average of $7.92 million salary over the next three years of his contract, I think we’re getting a real steal. Good luck replacing a guy like Curtis: 30/20 players with top tier defense don’t grow on trees.
A lifelong Tigers fan
on a happier note....
Gotta like the lineup for tonight posted at freep. Carlos batting in the 2 hole. Master and ruler 6th. Maggs gets his bonus tonight. And polly gets night off. Lots of left handed power bats tonight. Hope it works.
by rook34 on Sep 15, 2009 4:45 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Granderson
I see his problem less in his swing than in his head—his problem isn’t bad swings, it’s swinging at bad pitches, taking good pitches, getting behind, and doing badly.
Nobody can hit well with 2 strikes. But Curtis is particularly bad at it: He has all of 2 two-strike HRs this season (by way of comparison Inge has 7 and Cabrera has 6). And he has lots of practice: he and Inge both have over 300 PAs with 2-strike counts.
And I think this gets to the root of his problem: he and Inge are the “pitch count” guys on the team (Curtis has been 2nd, Inge 1st all season in pitches/plate appearance). Granderson has even said that part of his role as leadoff hitter is to make the pitcher work. But it seems the pitchers are winning the guessing game on when he’s going to swing/take.
I think the solution, rather than trade him, would be to try putting him back in the 5th slot in the order (where he probably belongs anyway), where he doesn’t feel obligated to see as many pitches, tell him his job is to drive in runs, and see what happens.
I don't know if
you can really rule out anyone for a trade but I don’t understand why Henning is all of a sudden calling for a trade because of one down year and to fill holes in the bullpen. The bullpen?! … christ you can just peice that together and the Tigers have spent a fair number of high draft picks on the ’pen in the last few years.
Seriously though I’d trade him for say JJ Hardy (or can he be had cheaper if he continues to slump in September? and do the Crew really want to trade him?) and a decent prospect, and use some of that money in free agency … but then who plays centre? That is a HUGE question for me … but anyways I’m gonna vote yes.
We just drafted like 35 billion relief pitchers
So the bullpen is the least of my concern. I’d want either a top 20 prospect (most likely a top 10) or a very good, very young established ML player.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Sep 15, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
what about
JJ Hardy though? What do you think the Tigers would have give up to get him assuming Milwaukee is shopping him?
The Brewers could use Grandy
I don’t think they have a centerfielder behind Mike Cameron, do they?
My guess, however, is that they’d want starting pitching. That was their big downfall this season.
by Ian Casselberry on Sep 15, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
NO JJ HARDY
I’d like to see the Tigers go after Scutaro for next season
by ryan_matthews28 on Sep 15, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
NO
A 34 year SS having a career year is not the player we should be pursuing.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Sep 15, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Meh
He’s good, but not Grandy good.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Sep 15, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
So true
Pretty much the entire depth in the minor league system is in the bullpen. There is no way DD would trade Grandy for RPers.
trade grandy???
no way…if we stay strong up the middle, we will win…….crappy average or not..grandy stays
Well
Say what you will about the whole Henning advocating the potential for a Grandy trade, but Neyer actually put some good perspective on his numbers and the whole situation. Worth glancing over.
by ryan_matthews28 on Sep 15, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
This is the silliest poll questions I've ever seen.
Curtis is part of the core of this team along with Cabrera and Verlander. It would be a major step in the wrong direction to trade him away no matter what the return. Good, solid, young, reliable, and fairly cheap talent is extremely hard to come by in this league and Curtis is all of these things. Above this, he is a face of this franchise, and a prominent member of the community. Next question please.
Just to clarify...
because I made a similar comment. It’s not a bad poll question, but it’s just kind of sad that the actual media are making us discuss this.
And Jackson
Everyone always manages to overlook E-Jax… he’s pretty awesome himself.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Sep 15, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Should they look into trading Grandy?
Yes. They should look into trading every single player on their roster, if teams are willing to give up enough players to get them.
That said, Grandy strikes me as part of the solution, not the problem. Yes, he’s getting more expensive. But even if this is all he is, that’s a hell of a player, and worth what he’ll be paid over the next few years.
We all know they might only consider this because of other bad contracts. That being said, they should bite the bullet on those contracts. You want to shed payroll? Release Magglio in the offseason to prevent any chance of his 2011 option vesting. Trade Dontrelle and pay 90% of his salary, or release him.
The bottom line is that there’s plenty of fat to trim off the payroll, and while they should see what they could get, and I do love Austin Jackson, Grandy is a guy you keep if you can.
granderson trade?
Yeah, straight up for Zach Greinke.
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