What is the true cost to the Detroit Tigers of signing Jose Valverde?
Reports yesterday out of 97.1 WXYT-FM in the Detroit area said the Tigers offered closer Jose Valverde a two-year contract worth between $12 million and $14 million. If that's the deal out there, I don't like it.
We know the true cost of signing Valverde is higher than that. Due to his status as a Type A free agent, the Tigers would have to forfeit their first-round draft pick -- 19th overall -- to the Astros, too.
That obviously sounds bad. No one wants to lose a first-round pick. A franchise with a weak farm system that has recently traded a popular player to bring more young, cost-controlled players into the fold does not sound like a candidate for giving away a draft pick so easily, either.
But how should we value the draft pick at stake -- as well as the two compensation picks the Tigers received for losing Brandon Lyon and Fernando Rodney? Building on research done by BaseballAnalysts.com and The Hardball Times, via our sister site Beyond the Box Score.
Victor Wang broke down the value of picks by tier last January at Hardball Times, applying a financial value to the draft picks based on the wins above replacement statistic. Rather than try to explain how he came to these numbers, causing some of my readers to have their eyes glaze over, I will just present the findings. Be sure to click the links for more information. These numbers should probably be adjusted down a bit, as the value of a win above replacement is less this offseason than last.
16th-30th Surplus Value: $5.2M (late first round)
31st-45th Surplus Value: $2.6M (supplemental)
46th-60th Surplus Value: $0.8M (early second round)
By this figuring, the Tigers actually break even in losing a first-round pick by gaining a pair of compensation picks.
However, I am not sure the bottom-line view is the best way to look at things. As of right now, the Tigers own the 19th overall draft pick, as well as a pair of sandwich round picks. While breaking even is commendable, it's still giving up about $5 million in value that the Tigers currently own. Unless that was part of the plan all along, I suppose.
One quibble Tigers fans might have with this entire figuring is that first rounds have been pretty kind to Detroit. In recent seasons, Rick Porcello came as the 27th pick, and Ryan Perry the 21st. Porcello, however, was an exception to the rule; the top high school pitcher in the draft dropped that far simply because of his agent. Perry made it to the major leagues quickly, but his value remains to be seen. It will be substantially less if Valverde is signed, making Perry a middle reliever. Any other memorable pick came early in the draft.
Beyond that, well, the Tigers don't have a lot of experience with making later picks in the first round because they've typically been a bad team. But it never hurts to gather as many picks as you can and hope one turns out really well. In the past few years, Phil Hughes (23rd), Daniel Bard (28th), Jacoby Ellsbury (23rd) and a few others have come out of the last first round. It's not exactly fruitful territory. There are many more names you likely don't know than names that you do. But it's good enough.
My take on Valverde
This whole conversation seems a bit academic in nature, of course. Those who subscribe to the theory an organization should be as economically efficient as possible will loathe to give up the pick, while those who don't mind a little waste are probably not as concerned.
I fall somewhere in the middle. If the Tigers were giving up a first-round pick for a player who would you could reasonable expect would make a difference and put them over the top, then there is hardly reason to debate it. However, giving up a draft pick for a relief pitcher does not seem like the best use of resources to me, for several reasons.
- The Tigers have been collecting relief pitchers this offseason, and have some bubbling up in the minors as well.
- To that end, there are several pitchers who have been thought of as the closer of the future: Joel Zumaya, Perry and Schlereth are among them. Signing Valverde to a multi-year deal derails that and makes you wonder why the Tigers bother stockpiling relief pitching.
- The closer role is over-rated, and paying free agent prices for saves is inefficient.
- The Tigers' problems are bigger than just who finishes games. They need to score some runs, too.
And none of that even speaks to the fact Valverde had some baseball luck on his side last season. Which isn't to say he's not a good pitcher, because he is. But he's not a great one, and not worth committing $12-14 million to. So regardless of the draft pick, I am not really in favor of this move as a multi-year deal. I'd actually be more in favor of it as a one-year stopgap. If the Tigers are out of contention by the trade deadline, they could move him and possibly receive a draft pick's worth of value -- and a player with some professional baseball track record as well.
I don't like the reports we're hearing so far and hope Valverde signs elsewhere.
Beck's take.
MLB.com reporter Jason Beck did not have any information confirming or denying the offer, but he was not all that surprised by the report either and called it the most logical destination for Valverde. He blogged:
There's a line of thought that if you're going to give up a first-round draft pick to sign a reliever, you almost have to do a two-year contract to justify it. It lessens the risk of the reliever having a bad year or missing time and dropping his ranking in the Type A/Type B free agent list
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Comments
Though experiment
Would you be happy getting Valverde at 2 years for 10 mil? 8 mil? 6 mil? Just the draft pick?
What is Valverde worth for you?
To be honest, very little
Not only will he cost the money and the draft pick and the roster spot, but you sacrifice one of the prospects with more upside. He’s a 30 year old player with a 3.50 FIP, and he’s bound to get worse, and maybe soon. Factor in the switch to the DH league, and I don’t see him as a top-tier closer. I’d certainly rather have the draft pick and all 12 million dollars.
To answer your question though, I’d be willing to settle for a sign-and-trade and a deal around 2 years, 6mm-8mm.
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by David Tokarz on Jan 13, 2010 1:50 AM EST up reply actions
I would never be happy with Valverde for 2 years
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 13, 2010 7:34 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed
Do the Tigers really not trust any of the in-house guys to close out games? I don’t even like the idea of signing Valverde.
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by handsomerob1 on Jan 14, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
Another way to think of it:
Jose Valverde would be making more money in 2010 than Curtis Granderson. Does that seem right to anyone here?
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Of course
After all, he IS one of the premier closers in the game, which is why so many teams are currently bidding for his services……sorry, couldn’t resist writing a snarky reply.
Honestly, this is one more way of showing why it should never be okay to invest so much into a mere relief pitcher.
by baum on Jan 13, 2010 5:37 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Red Flag
One of the red flags in this deal is that the Astros had Valverde and opted to let him walk then signed Brandon Lyon. Obviously, they thought Lyon brought more value to them. How could the Tigers justify reversing that formula? Given the list of candidates for closer already on the team and the desperate need for more offense, I’m with Kurt. If you have to give up a draft pick do it on someone who can hit and drive in runs. Better yet, seeing as we have a dearth of good hitters in the minors, use it to pick a solid college hitter for a change.
"I have seen the future, and it is much like the present, only longer" - Dan Quisenberry
Just FYI
The Astros offered him arbitration. By not resigning him they get a first round pick, so that certainly played a role in their decision making. I don’t think anyone believes Lyon is better than Valverde.
A lifelong Tigers fan
Not Better ... More Value ...
ewild, I didn’t suggest anyone thinks Lyon is better. However, even by your reasoning it is still clear the Astros think Lyon plus draft pick was more valuable than Valverde. That same formula would still apply to the Tigers for Valverde will cost them money plus draft pick.
"I have seen the future, and it is much like the present, only longer" - Dan Quisenberry
Reliever + draft pick is always more valuable than just one reliever.
That and the Astros are poorly run and Ed Wade has a penchant for over paying under qualified players.
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hmmm
I’m probably along the lines of not minding a little spending since, after all, it’s not really my money. I just want to see a winner and if it takes JOSE VALVERDE then I’ll be on board. There’s no doubt that Valverde has been a rock solid closer over the past few years ( I’ve paid extra attention to him having him on my fantasy team two of the past three) and while I tend to agree that the closer role is somewhat overrated, teams still covet the FAs and spend good money on them, so maybe I’m missing something there.
If the Tigers sign him, then I’ll back it because he’s definitely a good closer (and does an exciting little dance after closing out games). If they don’t do it, then I suspect it was because the draft pick & money just didn’t make sense, but I doubt it has to do with Perry, Zumaya, and Schlereth. Perry’s not ready and could benefit a from another year or two as a set up man, Zumaya’s health is extremely untrustworthy, and Schlereth is more of a flyer type guy who has potential, so in no way should we entrust the closer’s role to him until he proves he can throw big innings.
IF the Tigers do sign Valverde for the said price, I also think it kind of clears up DD’s thinking in the Granderson trade.
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Right on.
+1. Not a big closer guy myself, but I would love to have Valverde be a tiger. I don’t want to have heart attacks every 9th inning this season.
A lifelong Tigers fan
Having watched my share of Astros games
I wouldn’t say you won’t be having heart attacks with Valverde out there. Did you like that double negative I threw in there?
It doesn't matter who's pitching
It could be Mariano F’ing Rivera and I’d still be nervous in the 9th.
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by handsomerob1 on Jan 14, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
ok, maybe a little less nervous with Sandman on the hill, but that’s not happening. My point is that no current FA closer would put me at rest in the 9th.
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by handsomerob1 on Jan 14, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
I'm normally a pretty level-headed stats-oriented guy
and I understand all the arguments against the move.
But after 4 years of watching Jones/Rodney close games, the thought of a guy with a career WHIP of 1.17 and a career K/9 of 11.0 closing games for us has a pretty strong appeal from a fan emotion/psychological health standpoint.
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by KJ@theonlycolors on Jan 13, 2010 8:50 AM EST reply actions
I take issue with
the thought that the Tigers will be able to get another 1st rounder when Valverde would be leaving in a couple of years (if he signs at all).
Who’s to say that the Tigers want to pay him an even more inflated cost in a couple of years when he’s two years older. This is also ignoring the possibility that relief pitching could be even cheaper in a couple of years, so he’d be more likely to accept arb (much like Rafael Soriano did to the Braves this offseason).
It’s definitely something to take into consideration.
Two V's make a W!
It’s all about keeping Verlander happy, so Justin signs again with Detroit. A great starter wants a good closer, so the starter can rack up the W’s and can have faith in his bullpen…..
by MSU4LIF on Jan 13, 2010 9:36 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I have to believe that this type of reasoning is going into many decisions right now...
JV clearly performed better with tighter defense behind him this year. He could pitch and trust his team more (as long as he kept it in the park).
I don’t believe that Verlander calls the shots like you see on some basketball teams, but keeping him happy and wearing the D has to be important to the front office.
Scoring runs...
…will make Verlander happy. While he’s suffered both, I’d wager he’s lost more wins to “lack of run production” than to “faulty bullpen” efforts over his career.
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I don't know
The ’pen was pretty bad in 07 and 08…
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by David Tokarz on Jan 13, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
Starting pitching was pretty bad in those years, as well.
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Yes
But Verlander isn’t going to blame himself for losing wins. He’ll blame the ’pen and the D.
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by David Tokarz on Jan 13, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
And the bats
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by David Tokarz on Jan 13, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
And he’s also going to sign where he gets the biggest dollar amounts.
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by Mike Rogers on Jan 13, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
agree with this
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 13, 2010 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
It's interesting
That Joel Piniero is rumored to possibly go for a 2-year deal with a similar price tag. Wouldn’t it be better to grab a very nice starter and rest easy about the rotation? I definitely think Valverde would add value to the team, but if we got Piniero, we could feel good about our starting five, and actually have one of the best in baseball. I’d much rather answer the question marks on the rotation than the question marks on the back end of the bullpen.
A lifelong Tigers fan
by ewild on Jan 13, 2010 11:08 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I will never rest easy about the rotation
One true ace and then everything else. Porcello enters his sophomore season, and the league has a year’s worth of notes and footage on him. And Scherzer is still a bit of a question mark.
Plus all the contracts the Tigers have given out over the past few years to starters who have been hit or miss, I’ll pass on Piniero and start relying on in-house (young, minor league) options. So I’m not in favor of picking up another pitcher, unless it is a low-cost flier.
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Pretty much agree
Having a closer would be nice. Having the 19th pick in the draft would also be nice. if i’m going to trade one for the other, you’d better get someone better then Jose Valverde, and you’d better sign them to a longer contract then 2 years. Teams don’t like signing pitchers to long term deals… so I’d prefer Detroit skips this one.
I’d take the upside of the draft pick given this scenario.
www.tigergeist.com
Sound reasoning
Although I hesitate to call a two year contract a “long term” deal. I am loathe to pay a premium for saves, but 2 years is hardly an albatross.
I wish Victor had also given the mode value range
in addition to the mean value. It would give more information on the probability of drafting a successful prospect.
really...
this makes perfect sense. The Tigers system has absolutely no relief pitchers in it, especially none capable of closing games. This will be money well spent if it gets done.
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The tigers system has a boatload of relievers in it.
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(it was sarcasm)
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by David Tokarz on Jan 13, 2010 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
Where’s that damn sarcasm mark and does it come with a sarcasm detector for me?
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and a "set sarcasm to default" button
I’m not sure I’d use another font
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by handsomerob1 on Jan 14, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
I've got the solution...
fake sarcasm HTML tags such as: <font="sarcasm">this makes perfect sense. The Tigers system has absolutely no relief pitchers in it, especially none capable of closing games. This will be money well spent if it gets done.
The closing tag is removed though so it isn’t true to the standards of the hypertext markup language.
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Jon Paul Morosi
writes that although the Tigers are the best fit, the two sides are not close to an agreement
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I haven't seen anyone mention it
but…Valverde vs. the AL: 42.2 IP, 35 H, 58 K, 17 BB, 5 HR, 3.59 ERA. OK, I guess. I know…wait for it…it’s a small sample size.
The more I think about this, the less I understand it.
Thusly, I’m not going to think about it much.
I’m of the mind that we are actually going to need to score runs in order for a closer to be important.
That’s just me, though.
In a word: YIKESNOWAYINHELLISTHATAGOODDEALATALL.
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by Mike Rogers on Jan 13, 2010 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
Nice work Kurt
Agree with you whole heartedly. If the Tigers are willing to give $12 – $14 Million to Valverde, plus lose a 1st round pick, why didn’t they just re-sign Fernando Rodney for two years?
Because they thought he was an injury-risk & fluke maybe?
He’s had shoulder problems the past three years (although considerably less this past year) and he has a career 4.28 ERA. Perhaps, similar to Granderson, they figured they got the most out of Rodney and it was time to move on.
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As a Michigan ex-pat biding time in Houston, one of the under reported aspects of Valverde is that he was NOT well liked in the club house. A friend of mine who works for the ’stros let me know that not only is he a flake but the players tired of his antics on the field and off. As the Tigers go younger I do NOT see how this is going to help build a “team.” I say PASS!
how is news like that
NOT setting off red flags on this guy within the Tigers’ organization? The last thing they want to do is lose veterans like Polanco and Granderson (relatively speaking), and pick up a guy like Valverde who would upset the balance within the clubhouse.
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by handsomerob1 on Jan 14, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
Dombrowski's Draft's so far
I like the Valverde signing even giving up the pick.
One reason is since he has been here Dave Dombrowski has put together a team that really understands the talent available in drafts and he has done a solid job of making the best use of those picks. I HAVE to believe that if Dombrowskis was willing to forego the 19th pick overall, he must realize it is not a great draft. Or at least the players available at the sandwhich picks will be equally as talented as the player at 19.
I am not very familiar with the draft and have a few questions:
Has there been an evaluation of this years draft published yet?
If so what was Detroit projected to draft?
What is the order of the sandwich picks?
From a salary slot perspective, is a sandwich pick a number one or a number 2?
I know that trading of regular draft picks is not allowed, but could we use sandwich picks to trade up?

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