Looking for holes in the Tigers' lineup
Bumping to the front page to get some reaction -- Kurt
This originally started as a comment in Big Al's most recent post, but I realized it was getting lengthy and decided to move it over to the FanPosts, so it wouldn't take up the majority of the comments section.
I also realize I'm much more vulnerable to reactions over here, especially since my thinking isn't exactly in line with the majority here. Just know that we're all confused Tigers fans (some more than others), so I'm simply giving you my thoughts on what I think might be going on with the team and DD's thought process.
First off, I want help clearing up something that is confusing me with what some fans are saying. I want to know why some are so hung up on this notion that the Tigers were "bidding against themselves" for Valverde. Valverde made $8 million in 2009 and had another rock solid season. Everyone needs to remember that there’s a negotiation process, not an Ebay "highest bidder wins" process when dealing with FAs (although that's not to suggest there aren't some who do only follow the most money).
As all ball players do, Valverde has an agent who I’m sure had a specific dollar amount in mind that they would not go under, because let's face it, he’s a top reliever and was the best available. The Cardinals probably fell way below what Valverde and/or his agent expected and that’s why they were no longer in play.
Now, why the Tigers decided to actually go through with $7M is an entirely different story in my opinion, but I’ve argued and argued, over and over, again why I don’t think $7M is outlandish, and I’m sure the Tigers had boundaries on how much they wanted to spend too. $7M was clearly worth it to them for this top reliever (and I’d be willing to bet that an earnest DD would admit that a part of him thinks they got Valverde relatively cheap compared to what other closers around the league have been making over the years).
Second, I want to go through all the positions fans probably believe are the Tigers' offensive holes, holes that most presume could have been filled with the money just spent on Valverde:
SS — The Tigers indicated that they were going to put greater stock into defense here and I don't remember much bickering last year when he was signed. Of course, we had Granderson then.
CF — Which brings me to CF. Remember, the Tigers acquired Austin Jackson (and made him a requirement for the deal) for a reason — they think he’s going to be able to play CF. I think CF is viewed as a hole mostly because nobody knows exactly what Jackson can produce and everyone knows what Granderson produced. However, going out and signing another CF who we will have a better idea on how he'll produce would be counterintuitive to acquiring Jackson and pathing the way for him.
2B — The situation is somewhat similar here. Of course, the Tigers had a chance to re-sign Polly, so going after any expensive 2B now would raise questions why the Tigers didn’t bring Polly back. I think consensus at BYB is that it was a good decision not to bring Polly back because Scott Sizemore might be ready. Bringing in anyone else would completely contradict the "Sizemore is ready" sentiments. Plus, the guys available are a) not good or b) wouldn’t be cheap and would then bring us back to "Why didn’t we bring back Polly?" (Also keep in mind that even if we wanted a certain guy, he would also have to want us).
LF — Right now we have Guillen/Raburn out there and presumably the other will DH. As sad as it is, we’re pretty much stuck with Guillen because of HIS contract, not because we signed Valverde or traded Granderson. Signing another LF would mean we’d have to eat Guillen’s contract and/or get rid of Raburn (who had a great year last season and won the hearts of many here at BYB). But if Guillen’s healthy and Raburn hits as well as he did last season, LF is far from a hole.
RF — Again, Magglio's bad contract is something we’re stuck with, but if he hits like he did after the All-Star break last year he’s also far from representing a hole in the lineup.
C — This is a hole we’ll just have to deal with if we want our catcher to throw runners out. Avila showed he can mash, though, if we need to compensate for some of Laird’s lack of offense.
3B — Do Tigers fans really want to displace Inge? I feel like that would be Granderson all over again. Also, there's a chance healthier knees might help him return to his pre-ASG form from a year ago.
So I went through seven slots and we had the same problems in all but two of them last season. If we tried to find FAs to help in those two spots, we’d offset the whole reason why those holes exist in the first place -- because supposedly our young guys are ready to step in and take over.
To me, the $7 million per year that will be going into Valverde isn’t money that could have gone elsehwere, because there simply wasn’t anywhere else to put the money. Anyone signed at this point would either be compromising our defense, making us worse, or displace a burdening contract.
And we don’t even know if the Tigers are done making moves. There is no salary cap and the Tigers are currently under their payroll from a year ago, with a massive chunk coming off the books in the winter of 2010. Who's to say that the Tigers can't still go out and sign Russel Branyan to fill the DH slot or play some corner outfield. There’s no telling. If we got him, will people still be complaining about Valverde? Maybe, if you're hung up on losing a draft pick (which I admit was the one thing keeping me from being on board from the start). But with no draft pick being a sure thing (only 5 of the past 18 first round picks for the Tigers have panned out, although I know DD has a better success ratio). Valverde is a proven commodity. And we still have two compensation picks not too far away from the 19 slot. As I alluded to, the Tigers have been better at drafting during the DD era, so those two compensation picks are nothing to sneeze at.
But I'm getting away from my initial point -- I think our bullpen had a much more glaring hole that was fixable by signing the top reliever available. Unfortunately, I think it is the other contracts, not Valverde’s, that prevent the Tigers from addressing some of the offensive holes. And even those contracts may not prevent us from picking up another bat along the way, whether it be via sign or via trade. For that, we'll just have to wait and see.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.
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Great Post!
Packey – Nice analysis that I tend to agree with
I concur.
Great summary — and thanks for reminding us about all the awful, awful contracts set to expire after the 2010 season. If we can hold our own this season and be respectable, just wait until we can shift it into another gear when all those bloated salaries vanish.
by frisbeepilot on Jan 17, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
just remember...
that just because the money is coming off the books doesn’t mean that DD will have permission to spend it. Based on Ilitchs spending history it’s likely that most will be available to spend, but because the future is unpredictable I don’t want to count on anything.
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Additionally, just because money is coming off the books doesn’t mean that there will be much to spend the money on. 2011 free agent class doesn’t look too stellar in terms of our needs (if you’re looking for Joe Mauer or a solid 1B, it is more up your alley. However, Detroit won’t be.)
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I have my eyes on
Maicer Izturis, Carl Crawford, Adam Dunn, and Brandon Webb.
by StringTheory on Jan 18, 2010 2:27 AM EST up reply actions
Jeez
We’re going to need a RF, 3B, SS and some SP. So I see maybe Izturis and Crawford, but then we’re out of budget….
How about this?
3B: Resign Inge for 2yr, 8mm
SP: Sign Justin Duchscherer for 2yrs, 8mm
SP: Sign Javier Vasquez for 4yrs, 40mm
SS: Sign Maicer Izturis for 2yrs, 10mm
RF: Call up Wilkin Ramirez for the league minimum
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by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2010 3:55 AM EST up reply actions
SP
Will Turner and/or Crosby be ready, you think? You know more about these guys than I do, probably.
Ahhh, on second thought, let’s just worry about 2010 for now.
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in 2011?
Crosby maybe, but Turner won’t. Porcello may have went from HS to the rotation after one year in the minors but I’d never expect it of a player. If it happens, great. But unlikely it will.
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
This
Crosby will probably be good to go in 2012, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Turner then too. Crosby definitely needs time to work on his secondary stuff, and Turner needs to adjust to pro ball.
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by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
Verlander
Interesting…. 2 top SP prospy’s expected to be ready following the winter JV is expected to be a free agent. With Porcello and Scherzer, it makes ya wonder if JV isn’t really in the long term plans unless they can somehow extend him in next year and a half…. (trade bait should the Tigers not be contending in 2011…)
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Brandon Webb had a bad injury and his workload over the last 5 years is STAGGERING.
Dunn doesn’t want to DH, though that would probably change if no one is interested in him playing the field. It’s the reason he went to the Nats, though.
I’m not sure Crawford will make it to FA. I think Tampa trades him and the trading team signs him to a long term deal. Tampa’s got Desmond Jennings ready to hit the OF (and Matt Joyce, too).
Izturis I could see (and I could see Crawford if he were available).
Long ways off, though. fun to think about.
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Go through all the positions
And assume I was talking about filling those holes with a lefty bat.
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my question for you is this than...
Why not spend the money on the rotation instead of the bullpen? We only replaced Jackson. We didn’t add anybody to strengthen the back end of the rotation. Was closer a bigger need than our what our rotation remains?
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That's a good question
I gave my thoughts below on Sheets and Bedard. I tend to think Coke will be that 5th guy and if Bonderman is healthy that’s 5 guys we’re committed to already and going out and getting another starting arm would just complicate things further. Remember we’re also stuck with Robertson and could have Gags and Miner (which isn’t saying much, but worth noting).
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Bonderman
And his $12.5 million (I think) is supposed to add strength to the rotation. We can all hope, anyway.
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That's a good 1!
…You sound like double-D, next we’ll hear how we all hope Zumya will play more than a handful of games. Given that hole & losin Rodney & Lyon, they had to sign a decent closer, looking @ his #s it doesn’t look like he’ll be walking the bases loaded every game like Rodney. I’m still not sure who replaces Jackson in the starting rotation, it’s be nice if Gallaraga could regain his form from 2years ago, but that may be wishful thinking, seems like the new pitching coach screwed up his technique or something idk.
I’m still not sure who replaces the 30 hrs Grandy gave us last year, or Polly’s consistent bat. Idk why they resigned Everette either, he’s a waste of a roster spot. It seems like offense & closing were the problem the last few years & it seems like neither was really improved that much, although I do like the Valverder signing, & again we must hope Perry & Ni, who showed some promise last year, can mature & find some consistency. & we must hope Phil Coke will give us a smile & some of these other guys work out, so trading away 2 farely solid players, will not be for naught. I think it’s gonna be a 3rd or 4th place year, unless Mr D doesn’t sit on this mess.
Ya, I’m not sure whatthe complaint about Jose is, when guys like Bondo, D-train, & Rob-us-son are all making more than $10mil, this guys a bargain by those standards! I guess we should brace for another year of watching the Yanks in the Series!
Everett
If you can get a guy whose defense more than makes up for his putrid offense and you only have to sign him for 1.5/year for one year, you do it. Also, there was nothing else on the market that would have been better this year at SS. We would’ve had to trade for a decent SS.
by baum on Jan 17, 2010 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree...
As far as the lineup goes. Why not throw the Valverde money at a Ben Sheets or Erik Bedard? Either of them would probably be open to a one year deal to improve their market value and if healthy could be difference makers at the back end of the Tigers rotation.
Sheets wants $10-12M annually. My guess is the Tigers have their 1-3 starters and don’t want to spend that kind of money on a 4 or 5 guy. Then again our current projected 4, Bonderman, is due $12.5M this year. Signing Sheets would be making the Bonderman mistake all over again.
Bedard would also require more than what they signed Valverde for, but I don’t know much about his situation.
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Sheets won't get $10-$12mm
Probably could have gotten him for 7-9.
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by David Tokarz on Jan 16, 2010 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
Whether or not he gets it is another story...
But he’s asking for 10-12, plus he’s not even healthy right now.
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Which is exactly why he won't get it
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by David Tokarz on Jan 16, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
Trying to argue that we could have signed him for what we paid for Valverde
Basing that on the fact that he’s been injured and won’t get paid large sums of cash…. I was unclear before, sorry about that.
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by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2010 4:19 AM EST up reply actions
ahhhh ok I could have picked up on that on my own, my bad
I don’t know, man. The Tigers like 7 guys who could be starters and Sheets isn’t even a sure thing (health wise). I don’t know if going out and spending any kind of significant cash on a guy who has been out of the game for over a year and a constant injury risk is smart. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have a healthy Sheets. Also, wasn’t part of the reason he wasn’t signed last year is because he WOULDN’T take a pay cut just because of his injury? I thought that had something to do with it, but I could be wrong.
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It's defnately a risk
But with so many question marks in the rotation, I’d be happy to take a question mark with some serious upside. Maybe this speaks to my optimism with Sheets as a pitcher, or to my dislike of the Valverde signing. I just feel that Sheets is going to be a better bet.
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by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2010 4:33 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I wouldn't mind that risk either
If the Tigers wanted to risk it, I really don’t think the Valverde deal would stop it from happening.
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The whole "there's no salary cap" is a misnomer.
Illitch has spent before but there are budget concerns for the present and the future because wasteful spending is never a good thing and some people believe the Velverde signing is wasteful spending.
The bullpen “hole” is a philosophical divide – some believe in the idea of the “closer”, others think it is a luxury position or a honey trap.
DD wanted to get younger so he signs a 31 year old reliever when his organizational strength is all the relief arms he has acquired in his tenure. He did not even wait until spring training to decide that those arms already in the system could not do it or that many fans would go “experienced closer” and eat up the Velverde deal. That’s just poor form in my opinion.
I brought up the age thing in another thread
Laird is 30, we re-signed Everett who is 33, Guillen is 35, Inge will be 33 in May, Mags will be 36. The Tigers aren’t exactly young. Valverde will be 31 in July, but Rodney was 32 all last year and Lyon is only a month younger than Valverde, so the Tigers did get younger with Valverde.
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I looked this up before...
and right now I’m pulling it off of my head but I believe as of right now the Tigers average age is either 26 or 27, leaning closer to 26. Last season our average age was basically 30 I do believe. The Tigers have gotten much younger.
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What?
The vast majority of the roster is pretty young.
by metatron5369 on Jan 16, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, you're right
I shouldn’t have said:
The Tigers aren’t exactly young.But the rest is true.
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SS — were you around any Tigers fans at all this season? because all you heard was how the position was a black hole and how Everett can’t hit. Maybe last season when he signed fans were optimstic for his success. This has nothing at all to do with Granderson, I can’t believe you actually think it does.
2B — I have no qualms with replacing Polanco with Sizemore. But let’s face it, the defense at second base actually is worse now, and it seems a stretch to believe the offense will be major league average from day 1. Not a longterm hole. Not one I’d worry about. But potential to negatively impact the team is certainly there.
CF — Yes, this actually does have to do with Granderson. While some fans are obsessed with having a name reliever to pitch in the ninth inning, none seem to worry about the fact the Tigers do not have a center fielder. Despite the fact people want to take a left-handed split and turn it from something it is (28 percent of his at-bats) to something it’s not (50 percent), Granderson was still one of the most productive batters and fielders on the team.
His production will not be replaced by any player currently in the organization. Jackson struck out 21% of the time in Double-A, 24.5% in Triple-A. So either he is going to need more time in the minors, leaving a big hole at CF, or he will in fact be the hole at CF.
DH — The Tigers were among the least success DH teams in the American League, edging only the Royals in production here. But DH is not a big need because the Tigers fear Guillen will break down.
LF — So maybe LF is actually a hole that could have been filled, leaving Guillen as DH.
Conclusion: The Tigers might score as many runs as 2009. The entire offseason hinges on austin jackson’s shoulders. And if he can’t perform, they’d better find someone fast who can.
By the way, if everyone is so certain Ordonez’s option for 2011 will not kick in, the only reason for that would be his not playing full time in RF, leaving that another possible hole to fill.
Or else that wide-open 2011 budget everyone was salivating over is going to look a lot smaller.
And of course, there’s the whole matter of having one batter in the ideal lineup who bats left handed with any success.
I’d be thrilled if this team looked like a world series contender with no room for improvement. But this team is actually full of areas that could have been upgraded before adding a 7M a season relief pitcher.
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 16, 2010 5:16 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Lighten up, Kurt
…it’s J-a-n-u-a-r-y. Let’s see what spring brings. What with your perception that the boys have an excess of premier arms in the bullpen and Valverde is unneeded, we should be able to leverage them for an every day player or two. I can see the headline now – “Tigers trade Bonine and Ni for all-star CF”.
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by StorminNormanCash on Jan 16, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
I think it’s because I’m tired and my sarcasm detector isn’t working right now, but relievers don’t get dealt for every day players. And that happens for a reason.
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This
Also a reason I hate relief prospects.
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by David Tokarz on Jan 16, 2010 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
hey
There’s only about 11 weeks till first pitch, that’s sooner than you think. I have been wondering about all of the same things myself. My biggest concern being is I can’t help but think there is a huge gap straight up the middle, but I am willing to give the rookies a chance before I condemn them (not saying anyone’s doing that) Not happy about our SS, but hopefully, he’ll be able to find the ball with his bat this season. LF is going to be interesting. I predict if Carlos plays there every day he’ll be on the DL within a month or two.
I highly doubt they’ll let Maggs option kick in for 2011. 135 starts or 540 PAs in 2010. i doubt if they will let that happen. They are going to try and tie up Verlander with the money they would spend on Maggs in ’11.
lighten up?
for what, trying to shed some light on a post? you lighten up.
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 16, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
So sorry for that...
…just thought the host could be a bit more restrained in his retort. This Valverde thing is really working up the BYB regulars. Having no great attachment to Grandy and no major problems with the GM, I’m looking to the positive. In reality, none of us have a clue how it’s gonna work out, I’m hoping for the best in January.
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by StorminNormanCash on Jan 16, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
Actually Kurt...
you do come across a bit ‘heavy-handed’ some times. Not worse that most commentors but as the host, it seems a bit unseemly. StorminNormin’s been a pretty easygoing guy and the ‘you lighten up’ remark is a comeback that the host should probably avoid. Just my opinion.
by WirelessG on Jan 16, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't actually care what you think about me
I am not here to serve as a party host — have another martini, sir? If you’re looking for that, go find an AP article to reply to.
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 16, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
nice attitude
Great way to keep people giving a crap about what you say. Agree with me or I get rude! Seriously. Grow up and respectfully disagree . . . . that’s why people come to these sites. I don’t care if you disagree, but I do expect it to be done respectfully.
by tigerfan37 on Jan 17, 2010 1:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
HE DID RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE
Look, I know I don’t have to defend Kurt- but all he did was offer a counter-response in the original post. For which he was labeled “rude” by you and told to “lighten up” by StorminNorman. Thin-skinned much. Besides, you’re forgetting something big- he promoted something he disagrees with very much to the front page. That alone should speak volumes.
If by respectfully disagreeing you mean that those who oppose you and your opinions should roll over, I’d suggest toughening up- because nobody around here pulls punches. Its not like we mind you disagreeing with us (“royal we” referring to Team-not-Valverde), but you certainly have no right to challenge a man on his own turf… erm, blog.
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by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2010 2:16 AM EST up reply actions
Really
“for what, trying to shed some light on a post? you lighten up”
“I am not here to serve as a party host — have another martini, sir? If you’re looking for that, go find an AP article to reply to.”
His original post was fine these replies are not respectful. His response was not labeled as rude by me. His original post – I agree with some, not so much with some and that’s fine. These type of replies are not respectful. As far as toughening up. Toughness has nothing to do with how you act and react in interpersonal situations. I go a LONG way with that, but I will leave it there. Bottom line is I enjoyed the original post, Kurt’s original response was ok (I even agree with most of it), the replies were out of bounds. And I don’t care who you are or where you are, treat peoople respectfully. Come to my house and you won’t be treated rudely, and if you are, I hope someone calls me on it.
if someone tells me to ligthen up for making a post
I am not going to smile and take it. Like I said, I don’t care what you guys think. Tough.
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 17, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
da cold winters of da u.p. have made Kurt a hardass, eh?
That’s what I like about ya Kurt. But than again, you don’t care what I think.
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If we disagree, I’m probably going to tell you why if it’s a new topic. And I’m going to bring it with as much certainty as the original comment or post did.
There’s plenty of people here I disagree with on Valverde and I could very well agree with on the next debate and everyone has fun and goes on with their life.
But if someone comes to my blog specifically to tell me my opinion doesn’t count because I am not a GM, I’m going to be pretty suspicious of why they’re even here. If someone comes here to tell me to "lighten up" for replying to a post, I’m going to be pretty annoyed with them.
And goodness knows, I am not one to hold my tongue. And if someone has a problem with that, I don’t care.
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 17, 2010 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
You need to care, to an extent
It’s your blog, you’re setting the tone of it.
The reason I came to BYB when I started hanging around sports blogs was because the tone was less, shall we say, caustic than other places I checked out.
I am a casual fan, if that’s what not caring too much about having my wOBAs and BABIPs lined up means (although, I’m getting infected by that bug, wasting far too much time trying to figure out how to make baseball-reference, or ESPN’s stats show me what I’m trying to figure out). And at the same time, I probably stopped by for about 75-80% of last year’s game threads, which means I’m not just a ‘casual’ fan.
Right now, partly due to the disagreements over the merits fo the Valverde deal, there seems to be more hostility towards that ‘casual’ fan.
Just as an example, you made a comment a couple of days ago where you disagreed with an argument. The way you put it, “doesn’t matter what you think, because statistics show they’re not,” just comes across really badly.
I know your style from interacting on here the last year and change, and I know you weren’t making it personal, but that’s what it reads like. That pissed me off, and like I said, I know how you operate. What’s some newbie going to think if they come to a blog, and see the boss man going off on a peon like that, telling them “it doesn’t matter what you think”?
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by ahtrap on Jan 17, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
The stats tell the story, that’s all I’ll say. And you can click the little rainbow at the bottom of the page to see them yourself.
We didn’t just have a one-day spike, we have seen sustained numbers and a huge number of comments. Which, to me, is kind of the point of having a blog. There are a lot of readers, and most of them aren’t commenters.
I am not Ian, I said that up front. He’s a very sedate host. I am going to be me. I am going to get more involved. I am going to come at it from a sabermetric angle, because when you take the time to learn how to use the stats you see they actually are pretty good predictive measures.
We have a lot of baseball interaction going on and very few complainers, that remains to me the most important thing.
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 17, 2010 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
and by the way
This is way too off topic, and further concerns should be emailed to me. Otherwise put your efforts into talking about Packey’s post.
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 17, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Kurt can be a hard-ass at times
But this is not one of those times. He made a well argued, well made refutation to something he disagrees with. Telling him to lighten up is not a serious response, and not even appropriate (here).
Plus, just because he’s the editor doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the right to express an opinion. If anything, he’s got more right than any of us to express his opinions.
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by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2010 2:10 AM EST up reply actions
wow, wasn't expecting to get bumped, but thanks
SS — Maybe some fans were optimistic for his success!? Gee, one look at his offensive stats would tell you that’d be silly. When we signed Everett last year I don’t remember many people griping about it because he was good defensively and we just went through a year of poor defense (and hitting) with Renteria. Everett was cheap and, for most the part, an upgrade; thus not much of a negative reaction from fans. But what do I know, I was never around any Tigers fans.
I only brought up Granderson because Everett’s bat stands out and looks worse now because we don’t have Granderson compensating and making everyone feel all cozy inside. Fans weren’t and shouldn’t have been optimistic about Everett’s bat last year, but they probably were optimistic about the surrounding Tigers compensating for his bat. Now that Granderson is gone everyone is starting to freak out about all the holes —including SS when last year it wasn’t much of a concern. Believe it.
What’s funny, and this is more just for entertainment purposes, is I went back and looked at the comments here on BYB when Everett first signed in 2008 — keep in mind there were only 12 total comments and some didn’t address the signing at all: 2 completely ignored it and said they wanted to trade/sign for a closer (one more said it — his bat — scared him, but liked it because it was cheap and then said the Tigers should next sign Kerry Wood or Fuentes!). Three expressed that they liked it because of his defensive abilities (although one admitted his bat would be ugly) and only one said he/she absolutely hated it. Not a very big survey there, but it’s pretty funny that the majority liked the Everett signing/wanted a closer.
CF — Correct, but that doesn’t change the fact that the Tigers bought into Jackson, hence the trade. Going out and getting a CF that would make you and everyone else against that trade feel better (even just a little) would have made acquiring Jackson pointless. Now many have said that the Tigers should have just traded Jackson for Scherzer — but that’s not what the Tigers did. They clearly think Jackson is going to be the guy to fill in for Granderson, whether it’s next year or in 2011 and feel Granderson’s production was going to taper off. I don’t know how the CF ‘hole’ could be addressed with the $7 M spent on the Valve.
My guess is if the Tigers think that, say, Russel Branyan can help (who I have grown to think would be a nice fit) they can and will still try to get him and the $7M they spent on Valverde isn’t going to affect that. If they don’t get him, we’ll never know if it did or not, because DD will never come out and say, “we can’t get anyone else because we spent $7 M on Valverde.” It’s just perceived that way because the Tigers decided to gobble up the all-star reliever first before the journeyman, 34-year old, lefty bat. I really don’t think they’re done and anyone that they could have gotten before Valverde is probably still in play.
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If Austin Jackson strikes out in a quarter of his at bats...
Then he’ll be able to replace Granderson in one aspect right away. Thank you, I’ll be here all week.
well played, sir.
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 16, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
The idea about Valverde and his agent having a number they weren’t going under is problematic. No one is implying it’s an eBay auction, but if a FA’s number is too high for your tastes, you don’t sign him. Much like you don’t trade a player for a sub-par return.
Now, the price evidentally wasn’t to high for Dave Dombrowski, but in my opinion (and many others — again goes back to the philosophical divide of those who believe the closer is a necessity and those that think it’s on par with RBI’s) it was too much money.
Kurt said what i was going to say as far as the positions.
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This whole arguement is about the money assumption...
Whether you believe in Santa Closer or not, whether you just think adding another decent arm in the bullpen is a good idea, the fundamental issue in all of this is $7M. And that’s pretty much it…a few folks are worried about a perceived stunting of the emotional growth of Zumaya or Perry, but basically it’s the number 7M (or maybe 14M if you’re a visionary).
The money assumption is based on the impression that is money that is now not going to someone else. This may or may not be the case…we simply do not know. We do not know if this is just checking off the ‘bullpen’ line item in the budget and now it’s time to move on to the ‘LH bat’ line item. Only a few people in the organization know this and they aren’t telling you. They may say stuff with microphones jammed in their face or at chicken dinners in Toledo, but that’s just a bunch of talk and I wouldn’t take it as gospel.
No one knows what the real 2010 budget is (despite what DD might say to the papers)…historically Mr I has been rather mercurial in that respect. You never know when he might change direction …up or down.
Some people are just against spending 7M on anyone in the bullpen. And that’s fine, but again, that’s mostly an arguement about the allocation in respect to the whole. It’s true that there are limited resources, but it’s very hard to argue over their allocation when we don’t know what the ‘whole’ is and we don’t know what the individual line items are until the season starts…and it ain’t started yet.
Branyan gets on base
Hits for power, hits lefty and at least strike outs reduce double plays. He’s an offensive upgrade in most respects.
weak line-up
I agree with Kurt. It’s a very poor line-up. They have good pitching and they play in a weak division but they have weakened themselves offensively and defensively this off-season. They needed a reliever but I don’t think signing Valverde significantly increases their chance of winning a division title. I’m not worried about them spending money on Valverde but I’d rather they kept the draft pick.
Lee
EXTREMELY weak line-up
With all the complaining about our weak lineup, I think most fail to state the SEVERITY of the weakness. Really, beyond Mags and Cabrera, is there ANYBODY you’d really expect to hit higher than .260? OK, maybe Guillen IF he stays on the field (doubt it). Sizemore has a MINOR league track record of better than .260, but can we really expect that in his rookie year?. And then you have Laird, Inge, and Everett grasping to hit .230. Beyond, Mags and Cabrera, I see the rest of the team avg no better than .250. And their OBP won’t be much better. Ughh.
This
I have faith in Guillen and Sizemore, and maybe Inge.
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by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
While I have faith in these guys we have to remember the reality...
With Guillen we’re hoping he can stay healthy while maintaining an outfield position. I believe he promised to be the everyday LF, a scary thought for a guy who is made of glass. Whether that promise is up held remains to be seen. If not the question would be if Guillen could keep his unhappiness from becoming a clubhouse issue?
Sizemore while productive in the minor leagues is an unknown. We can hope he just adequately fills the big helmet that Polanco left behind. (seriously, the guy probably just converted a large mixing bowl into a helmet), but a lesser Polanco is still alot for an unknown commodity to live up too. You can throw Austin Jackson into this description as well. Unknown looking to fill in at a position that was before maned by a major fan favorite, if not the fan favorite.
Inge to me is a bigger unknown because his career batting numbers say that we cannot expect anything at all from him offensively. But heres where the unknown comes in. During the first half of last season, Inge was not the Inge we were used to. He could hit as well as defend. But than the injuries came. So the question is whether or not he returns healthy and whether or not the first half of last season was a fluke. In my experience it is best to assume the worst.
Laird is gonna suck. That’s the reality. The question is Avila and can he hit and be a good Major League backstop? The outlook based upon your FanPost is yes, and based upon what I saw is yes. My outlook at this position is that catcher is one position we don’t have to fret to much over. We’re pretty set here.
Just to tie this in with Packey’s post…these are the holes. Too many unknowns in a lineup, some just as much defensively as offensively, backed up by players who probably will not be able to fill the holes for a long term basis in case of injury. Plus lets add in the fact that of the holes I’ve mentioned, only one is gonna be an everyday left handed bat for us unless Lord Avila eventually edges Laird in playing time.
Plus, lets remember that there are two spots open within the starting rotation.
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by TigerFanInCleveland on Jan 18, 2010 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
Pitching, Pitching, Pitching
Well, it looks like most of agree on here, the bad bloated contracts that we havent utilized because of injuries has haunted us. I believe this going to be a make or break year for Bondo & Willis. I dont forsee the Tigers paying these guys a 3rd year in a row making over 10 mil taking up a roster spot. If they dont make it out of Sping Training they will be gone. I still believe we can get a least one steady starter out of Robertson, Bondo & Willis. At this point, my money is on Robertson. I think Bondo can contribute in some fashion as well. I thought maybe they would try him at (GASP) Closer. Willis? Unless he’s done something about getting out of his own head during the off season, Sorry, goodbye. I still think we can get 5 (if healthy) decent starters out of. Verlander, Porcello, Garalaga, Bonderman, Willis, Robertson, Miner, Bonnie, and the new guys we acquired. Thats why we didnt sign a starter straight up. PLAY BALL!!!!
Great article
Exactly what I’ve been thinking. I don’t love spending $7 million on a reliever, but our circumstances dictated this as being perhaps the best improvement available, relative to our roster needs and the current market.
A lifelong Tigers fan
Most level headed comment I've read so far
Finally, someone who writes without bitterness or heart break. Most people are just looking for reasons to underscore the Tigers. We have some of the best players in the league, so those holes shrink pretty fast when we got guys who flat out dominate and carry the team by themselves.

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