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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

All Sorts of Goofy: Max Scherzer

Originally I didn't plan on doing a post this soon because I wanted to do some more studying of pitching mechanics and provide some more in depth information for you guys.  But than NCDee requested Max Scherzer and I decided that he would be what I studied around and would be my next post.  So than I looked for a video, found one, and saw some...things.  Figured I'd tell you guys because this guy to me is interesting.  The things after the jump.

Star-divide

 

First off HERES the video.  It's actually a very nice one at that and shot fairly recently.


On to the analysis.

The Good:  Well, it's hard to explain what's good about this windup.  He seems to get a good wheel action with his throwing arm.  We'll just go to my next category...

The Goofy:  I can fill this one up with stuff because Max's delivery, well it's got goofy written all over it.  I'll bullet the goofiness.

  • He brings his glove over his head.  I know this is semi-common among pitchers but I have problems with it.  Basically it's unnecessary movement and such movements can mess with a pitchers timing and timing is pretty essential to maintaining the kinetic chain of the windup.  Now to explain kinetic chain simply (and badly):  it is essentially the series of motions that the body (and it's muscles/bones) go through to create velocity, control, and movement on the pitch.  So this unnecessary movement can become easily mistimed (rushed or slowed) and thus throw off the series of events needed to make a good pitch.  Having to bring the glove over the head and back down can lead to either breaking the hands to early or to late.  Too late being after forward motion begins, too early being before the leg kick reaches it's peak.  Ideally, forward motion doesn't begin until the hands break.
  • He swings his leg after the kick.  This is once again wasted movement.  There is no real good reason to swing your leg in your windup.  I feel part of the reason he does this has to do with the extra time it takes for him to get to the point where he's ready to break his hands.  By swinging his leg he isn't creating any forward movement at all but keeping his body at the start position essentially.  Again, a timing issue that could cause him to move forward before he's ready to enter the "wheel" motion with his throwing arm.
  • Dudes got two different color eyes.  That's just plain old goofy.  Nothing to do with pitching mechanics really, but goofy none the less.

The Bad:  Heres where I explain the bad stuff of the delivery.  These things are likely to cause injury due to unnecessary stress to various parts involved within the kinetic chain and/or cause lost velocity/control.

In the case of Max Scherzer the beginning and middle parts of his delivery are well...goofy.  Hands over the head, swinging the leg, multi colored eyes.  The end of the delivery however, reveals some problems that absolutely need to be fixed.  I'll number these points in order of appearance in the video.

  1. The first occurs with the plant foot.  One thing I've learned so far is that you plant your foot on a slightly bent knee and than have it straightened again by the end of the delivery of the pitch.  Looking at Max Scherzer it at first appears the the leg never straightens.  Which in it's self is a bad thing.  I mean really your just stopping your whole body from moving forward, which is the point of even stepping forward in the first place.  This is bad for velocity for one thing and too make up for the lack of velocity, it becomes very easy to try and use to much of the arm to try and add velocity to the pitch.  This puts undue stress upon the throwing arm.  If you watch carefully though you'll see that the leg does straighten, but it's more of a snap of the knee.  So now we have two problems going on here because the snap of the knee doesn't particularly address the issue of restraightening the plant leg and for anybody that has ever violently moved a joint before, you know that that quick jerk of the knee can't be very stressless.  To me this equals problem.
  2. This could be 1B really because both these events occur at practically the same time, but the glove hand comes back behind the body during/after the pitch.  Kinda defeats the purpose of all that other stuff involved in getting your momentum moving towards home plate.  Even though in the negative affect of this particular motion is essentially nil to the larger positive affect by all previous motions, it really shouldn't be there.  Combine it with point one and your just stock piling negativity a crucial point in the delivery:  the release.  Ideally, the glove gets tucked into the armpit and remains there until after release.  There really is no cause for injury alert here though.
  3. This one is very slight and the only reason I remember to check this is because Kurt posted a link one time regarding someones (might've been Max's) pitching mechanics.  And what I'm about to say is something they addressed in the video.  After the pitch watch the pitching arm.  What Max does is stop the arm and than swing it in front of him.  Basically the problem is this, you should never forcibly stop your own body while making a pitch.  It's why you continue to throw the ball when the batter steps out, it's part of why you restraighten your leg, it's why you let the arm move naturally after the pitch.  To stop anything from it's natural motion is to cause undue stress to the body.  At this point we're truly messing with the pitching arm.  Last I checked the pitching arm was important.  This may be small but it's unnecessary risk.

MadPoopz final verdict:  It appears that our newly acquired pitcher has some bad habits.  Fortunately these habits are very fixable.  Justin Verlander learned to bend his plant leg for the '09 season, I'm thinking that Max can learn to straighten his.  Based upon the fact that Rick Knapp had Justin learn to bend his leg, I'm thinking that Knapp has noticed all the things that I have just pointed out and will help Max accordingly.  The positive spin here is that these fixes have impact on things like velocity.  If people thought this kid had potential before, fix this stuff and than we'll really see what kind of potential is there.  Don't expect the goofy stuff to change though.  There are lots of successful pitchers out there with some goofy goings on in the windup...no real reason to mess with Max's.  After all, it's good to be unique.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.

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Oy.

It’s really not fair to compare the videos of Verlander and Scherzer because one is slo-mo, but all I could think of when I saw this video is the line from Bull Durham: “He f***ks like he pitches. Sorta all over the place”

I sure hope Dr. Knapp can work his magic. On his pitching, that is.

by NCDee on Jan 21, 2010 9:55 AM EST reply actions  

I know what you mean.

I did a “poor mans slow-mo” on the video by hitting play and pause really really fast.

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by madpoopz on Jan 21, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Three things

1) that is one f**ked up windup indeed!
2) Well played sir! An awesome refrence to a classic baseball movie!
3) don’t hate on the eyes. Kate Bosworth also has heterochromia need I say more?

Seriously though… Nice post

by JAYRC on Jan 21, 2010 2:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Not hating on the eyes, just pointing out the goofiness...

and tell me what movie I’m referencing? I’ve never watched a single baseball movie (except that one with Rosie O’Donnel).

Thanks for the complement. Now I just need to decide who to look at next. I"m thinking Phil Coke next since he’s our other new guy.

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by madpoopz on Jan 21, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

either Phil Coke...

or try to explain something like kinetic chain.

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by madpoopz on Jan 21, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed on all accounts — for me the braking of his arm on the follow through is what I don’t like.

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by Mike Rogers on Jan 21, 2010 4:16 PM EST reply actions  

Biggest thing for me

Is the disconnect between the motion of his upper and lower body. When Max reaches the top of his motion (when his knee is at its highest point) and he begins to shift forward his hands remain together. If you stop the video at about the 12 second point you can see what I am talking about. Think about what what would happen if you took a step, waited a second and then threw, nothing good. When a pitchers upperbody lags behind his legs he is forced to compensate. Max uses a combination of motion quirks (swinging his leg out to slow his stride) and extra effort to bring his upper body back in line. this extra-effort on the top end seems to result in a breakdown in his teqnique (the glove hand flying out) and the necessity of breaking his motion at the end (which i believe is what you identified in point 3. This breaking of his motion at the end is what the people at DrivelineMechanics identified as the reason for his DL sting in July of 08.

by rif23 on Jan 21, 2010 4:39 PM EST reply actions  

exactly...

there is a lot of unnecessary and dangerous things going on with this motion. But like I said a few things can be fixed easily which could help him fix things that aren’t so easy to fix right off the bat. Rick Knapp seems to be a pretty mechanics knowledgeable coach, he should be able to help Max out.

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by madpoopz on Jan 21, 2010 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

also...

I wish I could see how far back he’s bringing his forearm back right before release. I’m guessing he’s really bringing it back to a point of danger to make up for lost velocity.

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by madpoopz on Jan 21, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

b e a utiful.

Now theres something that doesn’t need to be changed.

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by madpoopz on Jan 22, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Good thing I'm in an office all by myself

so no one else could hear what I said when I saw that. Oh, Maxwell!

by NCDee on Jan 22, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

willis

i would watch trying to fix his mechanics. the marlins overhauled dontrelle’s mechanics and he has not been right ever since. the cardinals did the same thing with ankiel. the body gets used to that type of delivery, changing it can mess with his mind or could result in a injury.

by jeremy j on Jan 22, 2010 2:44 PM EST reply actions  

I don’t know if any of the things I talk about count as over hauls. The Goofy things are unnecessary for sure but they don’t really need to be fixed. Those are the things that don’t need to be changed. Teaching him the proper way to use his plant leg shouldn’t mess with timing at all since he technically does already do it properly in an improper way. It’s just a matter of eliminating that snap that he does with his knee by teaching him to keep it straight for a longer period of time.

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by madpoopz on Jan 22, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure about the arm braking.

He certainly does it on the third pitch, but on the first two, it looks like it “bounces”. It’s not bouncing off his body (like Justin Duscherer), but I think that gravity is taking over a bit, as a result of the angle his torso is at. He definitely does it on the third pitch, though. I’m a little curious whether the third one is a changeup…I could see a pitcher unconciously “taking a bit off” a changeup after two FB.

I’m also not sold on the glove thing being an issue. While momentum toward the plate is dandy, the reason his glove is behind his body is because he’s rapidly rotating his hips and torso. There’s maybe a little unnecessary flyout, but it really doesn’t seem too bad.

Good analysis, and thanks for digging up the video.

I don't want to hear any weak sh*t from Jason Grilli.

by cherub_daemon on Jan 24, 2010 5:47 PM EST reply actions  

Arm "Braking"

i thought the same thing on the arm motion. it seems to me like the first two were just natural “arm slowing down” motions, perhaps with some bouncing. the third was obvious and it looked like a changeup (check his right hand before he starts the wind-up – it looks like he palms it). so it may be less that he’s stopping it unnaturally as much as there’s just not as much momentum to carry it through.

i think that this isn’t nearly as big a problem as the knee, though. he “pops” that the wrong way, or even just takes a misstep trying to cover first on PFP and he’s riding the pine.

by GreatGooglyMoogly on Jan 24, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah...

I probably should’ve put the glove thing under “Goofy” because it’s more or less just unnecessary.

The reason I say the arm break is bad (it’s debatable whether it’s there or not. Easier to tell from a front angle) is because just stopping any part of your body is never a good thing. The velocity and strain that the pitching motion puts on the body can cause serious injury if the body isn’t allowed to do what it must naturally do to properly release the kinetic energy that it creates.

Scherzers motion does not properly distribute the energy generated by his pitching motion. If he used his plant leg properly the arm brake wouldn’t be as bad. It’s all kinetic chain. I know I didn’t do a great job explaining kinetic chains in the post above but if you’d like a better explaination, the “Pitching Mechanics” link in my signature will take you to an piece I wrote on it.

by madpoopz on Jan 24, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I forgot to say "thank you"

and it’s no problem. I like learning and this is definitely something fun to learn.

by madpoopz on Jan 25, 2010 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

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