Bonderman: why are we banking on him?
So pretty much everywhere I look the Tigers starting rotation looks like this:
3. Max Scherzer
5. Oh god please no
Am I the only one who is more than a little nervous about putting Bonderman in the rotation?
Lets recap Bondo's career a little bit:
|
Year |
JB ERA |
AL ERA |
JB WHIP |
AL WHIP |
JB SO/9 |
AL SO/9 |
HR/9 |
AL HR/9 |
JB IP |
JB ERA+ |
|
2003 |
5.56 |
4.52 |
1.549 |
1.385 |
6.0 |
6.11 |
1.3 |
1.11 |
162.0 |
77 |
|
2004 |
4.89 |
4.63 |
1.310 |
1.416 |
8.2 |
6.45 |
1.2 |
1.15 |
184.0 |
91 |
|
2005 |
4.57 |
4.35 |
1.354 |
1.362 |
6.9 |
6.16 |
1.0 |
1.07 |
189.0 |
93 |
|
2006 |
4.08 |
4.49 |
1.299 |
1.40 |
8.5 |
6.71 |
0.8 |
1.12 |
214.0 |
112 |
|
2007 |
5.01 |
4.43 |
1.382 |
1.40 |
7.5 |
6.70 |
1.2 |
1.05 |
174.1 |
91 |
|
2008 |
4.29 |
4.35 |
1.556 |
1.39 |
5.6 |
6.64 |
1.1 |
1.00 |
71.1 |
105 |
|
2009 |
8.71 |
4.45 |
2.323 |
1.40 |
4.4 |
6.86 |
3.5 |
1.11 |
10.1 |
53 |
|
162 G AVG |
4.78 |
4.46 |
1.395 |
1.393 |
7.3 |
6.51 |
1.1 |
1.09 |
200 |
93 |
Overall it's not looking too great, below average ERA (not that that means much), almost exactly average WHIP, average HR stats, a below average ERA+; pretty much the only good thing are his strikeout numbers which are better than average.
Alright lets give Bondo a break, he wasn't ready for the big leagues in 2003, anyone could see that, so lets remove those stats from his averages:
|
Year |
JB ERA |
AL ERA |
JB WHIP |
AL WHIP |
JB SO/9 |
AL SO/9 |
HR/9 |
AL HR/9 |
JB IP |
JB ERA+ |
|
w/o 2006 AVG |
4.63 |
4.45 |
1.365 |
1.395 |
7.569 |
6.59 |
1.06 |
1.065 |
- |
- |
A little better, WHIP slightly better than average, about 1 K/9 better, and pretty much average on HR/9.
Obviously his career year was 2006, where he was a solid pitcher and workhorse. In 2007 he was pretty average with a crappy ERA, an okay WHIP good strikeout numbers and too many home runs. He was doing pretty well in 2008 before his blood clots cut his season short. 2009 as we know didn't go too well: One disastrous start and then a few unremarkable bullpen appearances. Coming out of the bullpen he looked okay, his fastball velocity was still down but his slider was okay. He had more control issues than normal with more walks than strikeouts. Of course all of this is meaningless since the sample size is so small. I'm just not confident that we'll get the 2006 or pre-injury 2008 Bondo, I think it's more likely that we'll get the other Bondo which is average at best and flat out bad at worst.
As I wrote this I found that I warmed slightly to the idea of Bondo as a 4th starter, because after all 4th starters don't need to be great, you just want them to be average. But I still have a lot of doubts, he could very well go nowhere and then where is our rotation left? Do any of you feel comfortable with 40% of our rotation being filled with:
Zach Minor
Armondo Galarraga
Because I don't.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.
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What they know and what they SAY are two different things
They’ll be saying that Bonderman is ready to go. They said that last year. They’ll say he’s worked hard, that he’d pumped up, that he feels better than he did in years. But then, listen to what they say about Nate Robertson, Dontrelle Willis, and Armando Galarraga. Same thing, then pass the salt.
I give Galarraga an equal, if not better chance, at having a successful season in the rotation as I give Bonderman. Those odds are evened up by the fact that the Tigers will be giving the other guys first crack because AG has an option left, and the others are making 10 to 12.5 million bucks.
Bondo doesn’t have to set the world on fire as a fourth starter. AG picked up 6 wins in 2009. I figure that there will be a drop off from Jackson’s 13 wins in ’09 to what we get from Scherzer in his first season in the AL. In fact, the fact that DD blew a few more holes in what was already a bad lineup may drop the W totals for all starters. The 4- 5 spots in the rotation were none too steady last season, and should be able to improve on the 2009 win totals, IMO.
Im not worried.....
…..if hes healthy he will be fine.
by BennieBladesFan on Jan 26, 2010 3:04 AM EST reply actions
Why he is counted on . . .
. . . unlike Robertson or Galarrega, he’s never stunk without being hurt, and he seems finally recovered from his injury.
Galarraga's numbers just sort of tanked all of a sudden...
something happened and it wasn’t just plate adjustments. As far as I’m concerned Galarraga has only ever stunk while hurt as well.
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Bondo will be fine.
That’s my gut feeling on the matter.
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Whether or not it is Bondo
8 guys to fill 2 spots, that seems like decent odds to find something serviceable, and serviceable is all you can really ask for at 4-5. Look at this collection of 4 and 5s for the two world series teams last year Chad Gaudan, Chin Ming Wang, Sergio Mitre, Jamie Moyer, Antonio Bastardo. Chan Ho Park*….not a solid list.
Numbers don't tell the whole story
Look at Bondo’s 1st half numbers for 2006 and 2007, if he’s healthy he’ll be a solid 4 or 5 starter.
I dunno
I look at this in two ways:
1) From 2003 through the first half of 2007, JB improved in most measurable categories each season. He kept getting better. It was slightly after the ASB in ‘07 that the injuries hit the fan. Remember, he was nominated for the Last Guy In or whatever they call it for the All-Star Game that season, sporting a 4/1 K:BB ratio (3.48 ERA). He really looked like he had morphed into That Guy. Then injuries. ’08 and ’09 were just a waste on account of health. So there’s that.
2) The type of surgery he had pretty much ended Kenny Rogers career and caused Hank Blalock to become a 1B, as he could no longer make the throws from 3B. So will Bondo ever recover? He is still only 27 (amazing, no?). I’m all for giving him a shot to see if he can get back to where he left off. The fact that he’s still owed $12 million or whatever it is probably helps – may as well try and get some value in return.
This
And the health problems may have been dogging him in ‘07 too… didn’t he hit the DL?
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by David Tokarz on Jan 26, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
In terms of pitching...
you need to look at the type of pitcher Kenny Rogers was and the pitcher that Jeremy Bonderman is. Basically they’re two different pitchers.
Kenny Rogers relied heavily upon strategy. Meaning relied heavily upon location, pitch selection (Kenny had alot of pitches to choose from), and changing speeds on those pitches. Looking at his pitch type values we can see that really his pitches weren’t extraordinary by any account but plate discipline against Kenny was pretty comparable to Bondo’s. In 2008 though you can see that hitter were making better contact overall.
Now the surgery is a very plausible reason for this. Considering the underwelming nature of Rogers pitches up to this point in his career, an effect on the velocity of his fastball would have an effect on the nature of his changeup overall. The changeup was one of Kenny’s better pitches so effecting it effectiveness could ruin a career.
Now the reason Bonderman shouldn’t be affected so much by similar surgery is because his most dynamic pitch (his slider) generally comes at the hitter at the same speed as his fastball. Bondo’s success will determined not by regaining velocity on his fastball but by maintaining the bite on his slider and maintaining good control.
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Basically his 06-present numbers are better than average across the board, save for ERA — and that’s not a surprise given we haven’t exactly be throwing gold glovers in the field every year.
Also, I’d like to see him compared to the average AL ERA if you’re going that round. 4.50 in the AL is way different than the NL Central.
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Wow. Disregard that last part. I was thinking it said ML AVG and not AL.
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Also
I don’t know how much we can really glean from ‘08-’09. 81 innings = small sample size (sorry, I had to do that solely to piss off Kurt).
Agreed. To me, Bondo will never be fully valued for what he is because I don’t think he’ll ever have an ERA under 4.00. Kind of like a poor-man’s Javy Vazquez if that makes sense. Someone that gets a good amount of K’s, has a very good K:BB ratio, limits homers, but for some reason his ERA winds up more in the league average despite above-average peripherals.
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But
With the exception of ‘06 he hasn’t limited homers since 2006 he’s be noticeably above the AL average for HR/9, and thats with half of his starts coming at Comerica. I agree with you about the ERA, it doesn’t really matter, but his WHIP has never been that great either. Pretty much his only good aspects are his K/9 and K/BB, which could very easily be gone if he’s lost his fastball velocity and still hasn’t developed a third pitch.
The velocity loss would be the biggest thing. He had those good K:BB ratios without a 3rd pitch, so why would that change?
He has been league average since 2006 in HR/9, according to the chart above. So, is that no limiting homers? And his WHIP has been above average. I’m not sure what you’re looking for. He’s not an elite-level ace akin to Tim Lincecum, but he’s consistently been above average in K’s, BB’s, (and, thus, WHIP) and league average in HR’s allowed.
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honestly, I don't know if we can really read stats as tea leaves on this one
since mid 2007, he’s been injured. Pitched through an elbow injury that started bothering him in july in 2007 he said. Then 2008, pitches with a shoulder and circulation problem and has major surgery. Then just isn’t ready in 2009. I don’t know what the stats can really tell us under those circumstances.
we’ll know right away in March what to expect based largely on the velocity of his fast ball, as Mike noted. If he’s back to normal, I’d expect closer to this career norms, adjusted for age a bit.
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 26, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah, I know. I don’t want to give that impression (though re-reading it, I did give that impression). As far as the velo goes, I’m just looking for something like 90-92 with the heater so long as he has the movement he had when healthy. His fastball always had great diving action in on RHH and his slider can be lights out, so if that has the bite it used to, I’m not THAT caught up in the velocity.
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I wish
I had video of this start. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen more FB movement than what JB was featuring this particular afternoon. Unfortunately, as you can tell by the K/BB numbers, neither the pitcher nor the hitters had any idea where the ball was moving to. Nonetheless, if he’s got anything like that going on in 2010 I’ll be giddy like a schoolgirl.
I looked at Bondo back in the summer through PITCHf/x. The movement wasn’t quite there on the heater but it still had good arm-side run.
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It’s cool man. I hear that. I’m not counting on 180 innings of vintage Bondo. For me, anything we get out of Bondo/Zumaya/Willis (long shot) is all gravy. For me, I think Nate Robertson’s the one to keep an eye on because I think he’ll rebound in 2010.
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Yeah, The Bespectacled One could be a bounceback candidate
He’s kind of the forgotten man, but was once held in enough regard to start Game 1 of two separate playoff series. And again, before “dead arm” set in on him in 2007 he was nails. 2008 he was unpitchable, though.
Don't look at me
I’ve been saying we should trade him since the off-season started. For some reason, everyone has rose-tinted glasses on when they think about Bondo.
that makes no sense
if he’s no good as you claim, who would trade for him?
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 26, 2010 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
You could probably get *something*
for Bonderman as a reclamation project, with his age and everything. You’d probably have to kick in a bunch of cash, but I could see some team taking a flyer on him. Willis, Robertson…not so much.
which might make sense of the Tigers had a surplus of starters he's blocking
but since they don’t, makes more sense to audition him themselves like the rest.
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by Kurt Mensching on Jan 26, 2010 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, that's really why we're banking on Bondo
cause there isn’t anyone else worth banking on.
The time for reckoning has come, and we already have the answer
A National League team, or some other risk-taking club.
I’m not saying he’s horrible, I’d just rather put Galarraga, Robertson, Miner, Coke, and/or Dontrelle ahead of him.
We can get something for him, and since we have an abundance of middling starters, why not?
by metatron5369 on Jan 27, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
Erm
I’d pencil in Armando ahead of Jeremy, but not the other four. That said, we can get more for Bondo than we could from any of those four.
by metatron5369 on Jan 27, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
If you can get more for Bondo doesn’t that say more about Bondo’s talents vs. the others?
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Carlos Pena
What?
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by David Tokarz on Jan 28, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Scrap Heap
It may be a scrap heap, but at least it is a talented scrap heap that provide the potential for the Tigers to have ML average starters in the #4 and #5 holes.
How many teams would kill to have the what the Tigers have in their pitching staff? Aces and/or legitimate potential aces at #1 thru #3… ML average or average plus starters at #4 and #5, and a bullpen brimming, overflowing with young, live, cheap, interchangeable arms.
Pitching will not be the downfall of the 2010 Detroit Tigers.
and don't forget a plethora of LH pitching.
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Or CF
Or LF… or DH… or 2B…
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by David Tokarz on Feb 1, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions




















