Looking back at "The Trade"
One thing I like about the end of the baseball season is that sudden realization that the sample is complete. There's no more, "We'll see if he comes back down to Earth" or "It'll even out in the end". This is the end. All the things we were waiting to see are waiting to be seen. Yesterday, I found myself combing through Tigers on Fangraphs after making this realization and wondering what columns would present themselves and what hypotheses might be lying in the numbers.
Sometimes these things present themselves much more easily than others. This time, my simple question was to wonder how the Tigers' humongous, controversial trade shook out in terms of 2010 performance. Now, I know the thing that really made the trade controversial was giving up fan favorite Curtis Granderson. However, a close second was the suspicion that this was almost certainly a net loss in 2010. After all, how many rookies are able to produce at a level anywhere near the standard Granderson had set in his four seasons in Detroit? So many fans not only felt they were losing their Tiger, they also might be losing their contenders.
I think even most of the people who agreed the trade was necessary and the right baseball move made the assessment in terms of long-term organizational health. The story went that the Tigers had few valuable commodities so they used the ones they had to add some depth. When the season rolled on, though, an interesting thing happened. Austin Jackson was more than just a passable rookie on a transitioning team. Max Scherzer turned out - eventually - to be all we could have hoped for from a second year starter. Phil Coke was one of the more reliable arms in the bullpen, and even Daniel Schlereth made a little bit of a contribution.
So how did the big trade shake out in 2010? Let's take a look:
Tigers received:
Austin Jackson, .293/.345/.400, .333 wOBA, 47 BB, 170 K, 27/33 SB, 3.6 WAR
Max Scherzer, 12-11, 3.50 ERA, 195.2 IP, 174 H, 20 HR, 70 BB, 184 K, 3.7 WAR
Phil Coke, 64.2 IP, 67 H, 2 HR, 26 BB, 53 K, 1.1 WAR
Daniel Schlereth (AAA) 49.1 IP, 40 H, 0 HR, 34 BB, 60 K, (MLB) 0.1 WAR
Tigers gave up:
Curtis Granderson, .247/.324/.468, .346 wOBA, 53 BB, 116 K, 12/14 SB, 4.1 WAR
Edwin Jackson, 13-9, 4.47 ERA, 209.1 IP, 214 H, 21 HR, 78 BB, 181 K, 3.8 WAR
That's 8.5 WAR for the good guys and 7.9 WAR for the good guys playing for other teams. How many people do you think would have predicted a net gain in 2010 from that deal? Look, I know it's not that simple assessing a trade. The Tigers haven't "won" the deal yet. But if you're still skeptical, keep some other very important numbers in mind.
The Tigers paid the players they received about $2.725 million. The trade partners paid Granderson and Jackson about $10.1 million. That's not too bad when you consider Granderson and Jackson are only going to cost more as they gain seniority. Just looking at 2011, Granderson and Jackson will jump up to almost $20 million and the Tigers' part of the deal will stay pretty flat in terms of salary. More production, less money. I think we can all agree that's how a trade is supposed to work.
Now, depending on what kind of Tiger fan you are, you'll either spend the offseason dreaming of what saved money will bring or worrying about how they'll squander the opportunity. I'll be taking a hefty scoop of column A with a dash of column B.
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I have to do a mea culpa on this deal
I still firmly believe that the primary motivation for DD making this deal was to clear payroll so that he could add other pieces.
I never bought the notion that DD had to slash payroll, just had to juggle it to give him some wiggle room. He got himself into a bind with too many bad contracts on the books, to the point where he HAD to clear some salaries before even replacing the departing free agents. He made the best out of a bad situation, albeit one that he created.
As for how the money will bring, I think it’s already arrived. The trade not only brought Jackson for Granderson, and Scherzer for Edwin Jackson, but also got Coke and Schlereth, and enough left over to buy Valverde and make a down payment on Damon. If Coke can make an effective transition to the rotation, the net value of the trade will increase even higher.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
GREAT COMMENT!!! I’m looking forward to Dan Schlereth, especially after his OUTSTANDING last 4 outings. I remember when mattintoledo wrote immediately after the trade that Scherzer was better than Edwin Jackson. The Tigers got Dan Schlereth for 0. WATCH HIM DEVELOP along with Weinhardt. It’s great to have you here Matt. For those of you who have read t75n, aren’t we all fortunate to have him at BYB!! For those of you who never read his posts before, you’re in for a real treat!! I have most of his posts for over 2 years to prove it!!
by StephenGrosberg on Oct 5, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice post
Good to see a side by side comparison and that the WAR difference comes out at 0.6. Since Edwin spent 2/3 of a season in the NL, his value might actually be lower. I agree with TD that this trade likely had more to do with $ than performance, but we can also enjoy what turned out to benefit all parties.
im still not so sure it was
a salary dump seeing that granderson and jackson were hardly on the hook for maggs-type money or anything. i think DD saw a chance to acquire some young talent, and he ran with it.
No, not a salary dump at all.
That term, to me, means they’re just slashing the payroll to lower the overall amount. That was never the plan.
But the mathematical reality was that there was more money being added to the payroll due to scheduled salary increases and pending arbitration cases, than there was coming off due to the four free agents leaving. Illitch would not approve an overall increase, but didn’t demand any “fire sale”, either. DD just had to clear some room in order to even replace the departing free agents.
Without the financial reality DD put himself in, there’s no way Granderson gets traded. Edwin for Scherzer, absolutely. Five years of club control vs two is a no brainer, especially with Boras for an agent bringing Edwin to market.
But, faced with the financial reality of the payroll situation, DD made some shrewd baseball moves. This trade is up there with his best. I just never thought it possible to pay off so quickly. That being said, I still don’t trust him to make the right moves now that he has payroll to work with.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Is there a misprint somewhere?
How on earth could Edwin Jackson be rated higher than Scherzer? Scherzer completely dominated him in nearly every stat.
I never bought much into WAR or Fangaff’s articles, this just gives me better reason to ignore their foolishness.
+1
Agree On Fangraphs.
Gimmie BA HR Runs And RBI then I know what I got.
by BennieBladesFan on Oct 4, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It's good to know what they are talking about though.
WAR for pitchers is based on FIP, which is really just a glorified strikeout to walk ratio, with a penalty for HR’s, and a bonus for IP’s. How many hits or runs a pitcher gives up doesn’t matter one bit. Hits, runs, and inducing defensive plays is most of the game. Walks, K’s, and Homers only account for about 30% of the game, if I remember correctly.
+1
Aren't you the same guy who called BABIP a joke?
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Oct 5, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
It usually is.
You guys are right about 50% with your analysis. In my book that’s called random variation.
+1
actually I think we're right a lot more than we're wrong
but maybe you have a list to share that measures the two
by Kurt Mensching on Oct 5, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe
You do a very good job with your analysis. Perhaps better than anyone on internet. There are others though that can’t differentiate between a .280 BABIP guy from a .340 BABIP guy. They get stuck on the idea that the medium is .300.
+1
thanks
and that’s certainly true. People who do not understand how to use saber stats do a disservice to all of us.
by Kurt Mensching on Oct 5, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Austin Jackson is the main guy making the sabermetrics look bad
Most are calling his rookie season blind luck, which is what I don’t agree with. What’s funny is that over his entire career the low end of the spectrum for his BABIP is about .350 and his medium is about .370.
.369 in 2005 Rk
.355 in 2006 A
.369 in 2007 A,A+,AAA
.349 in 2008 AA
.390 in 2009 AAA
.399 in 2010 Majors
I calculate BABIP (H-HR) / (AB-HR-SO). I don’t count sac flies.
+1
Medium?
That’s twice you’ve referred to “medium” and I can’t really tell if you’re talking about the median (the one in the middle if you rank them top to bottom) or the mean (what most call the average). I apologize if that seems nitpicky; it’s a remnant of my math major days.
I think a common mistake with BABIP is assuming it’s the only variable. I think Jackson’s walks will improve and he’ll add power. The BABIP is certain to come down, but other things could make up the loss.
Thanks for letting me know it bothers you.
I’ll be sure to use medium instead of average or middle all the time now.
+1
Not just blind luck, but AJax almost has to be in for some regression due to the astronomical BABIP
His line drive pct is also the best in the league, tied with Mauer, and that will always produce a higher BABIP. To say it’s blind luck is to say that there aren’t hitters that can hit line drives better than others, and I don’t think anyone here is saying that.
We still have a hitter in AJax that hits well to all fields, and makes contact often enough that he’ll continue to hit at a decent clip. Just don’t expect another .300 season without some off setting improvement in strike zone recognition.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
In that case, kick back with your median fries and soft drink and enjoy the site.
by mattintoledo on Oct 5, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
WAR is only based on FIP on Fangraphs site
On baseball-reference I believe they use the traditional stats.
If you go by that, Scherzer ends up with a 3.3 WAR, and Jackson comes in at 1.7 (that’s a combined with AZ and CHW).
by ozymandius1024 on Oct 5, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
that sounds much more reasonable
Fangaff’s misses the mark in so many ways.
+1
The method used to calculate WAR on Fangraphs, and the reasons why they use it is explained here
I think that fans looking for the be all statistic to measure the overall performance of a pitcher or a batter are going to get frustrated by the flaws in any given statistic. There will never be a “one stat fits all” number for either pitchers or hitters, IMO. You have to take them for what they’re worth- extract the value of the information for what it’s worth. When you try to project a player’s value from one level to the next, or even sometimes from one league to the other, the task becomes that much more difficult.
I was not comfortable with the Tigers counting on AJax to lead off this season, primarily because of his K/ BB numbers and I was pretty sure that Damon would be leading off within six weeks of opening day. I thought that Sizemore was a possibility to bat second, but WTH do I know?
We all seem to have AJax penciled in No. 1 for opening day, but stranger things have happened than a second year drop off in avg and OBP that might put him at the bottom of the order. If DD decides to let Magglio and Damon walk, and claim “upgrade” when he signs an “RBI bat” to protect Cabrera, there goes 2 and 3, and Miggy’s got nobody to drive in. We’ll see where the ride takes us.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Other than ERA, and K vs BB, I like Branch Rickey’s method K vs. BB, Innings vs Hits given, the bigger the # the better. I like what Will Rhymes does, namely BB close to K and a decent # of hits when they count. Also he hits LHP as well as RHP. Interestingly enough the Tigers can have 1-4 good hitting with Rhymes #2 and Raburn # 3. If Wells continues, yhey have 1—5. If Boesch returns to beginning form, you have 1—6. Peralta and Inge could return to form and Avila could hit and with the pitching benefiting from 2009, the Tigers would contend. For reserves, they have Santiago, the pitchers at Erie and Toledo, Ryan Strieby, Rawley Bishop, Danny Worth, and Brandon Douglas. With this as a base, they’ll be able to figure the next step. My biggest sleeper is still Adam Wilk, Work will tell though. Glad to see tht possibility of DD letting Ordonez and Damon walk. Raburn/Wells/Boesch/Dirks vs Ordonez/Damon—No comparison. The following year will be even better. That’s how you win Championships.
by StephenGrosberg on Oct 6, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
You got a lotta problems if you just rely on those numbers.
Ryan Raburn antagonist.
Scott Sizemore liberationist.
Don't forget
Scherzer spent a month being awful.
But what did he become!!! It’s what Ryan Raburn became, not what he did in the beginning. When they play him with confidence, they’ll see the results. For the ending long period, Raburn was one of the best hitters in the league.
by StephenGrosberg on Oct 6, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
needs
we better arms and steady fielders in the OF (insert Rayburn) ..dump Rayburn and get a solid catcher ho can hit!
mikeyboy62....
Ryan Raburn hit ALMOST as well as most of the high priced free agents when they started playing him every day vs. RHP as well as LHP. The same performance happened last year the same way. Alex Avila will do better too because he’s patient and he’s shown he can hit. They just have to play him.
by StephenGrosberg on Oct 5, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe that this trade will be Dombrowski's greatest when we look back on it
I believe that he saw that Granderson had plateaued with the Tigers (refer back to many comments from Leyland, Kaline and even DD about how they wished he focused on-field more).
I would be very afraid to be on the other side of the table from DD if I were another GM. He appears to know when to sell high and buy low and that trade solidified it in my mind.
Now, that skill does not seem to translate to negotiations with players/ agents. But that is another story for another time.
The Braves don't mind sitting across the table from DD
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
No, he was part of the Jackson/Granderson deal
Detroit didn’t get anything for nothing.
by ozymandius1024 on Oct 5, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
When Jackson matches up with Granderson, they got Coke for nothing. When Scherzer is better than Edwin Jackson, they got Dan Schlereth, great in his last 4 outings, for nothing or minus.
by StephenGrosberg on Oct 5, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
There's some logic there, as word was that the DBacks offered Scherzer for Edwin straight up, but DD held out
still, you can’t really say that you got someone for nothing, because such a deal would never be made.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Wasn’t the trade really Edwin Jackson for Scherzer and Schlereth AND Granderson for Austin Jackson and Coke. As far as I’m concerned, the Tigers got Coke & Schlereth for nothing. If no one gets hurt, this will be one of the best. CONGRATS DD!!!!! If they pitch Schlereth enough, he’ll be one of the best too.
by StephenGrosberg on Oct 6, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
wait till mext year
If you saw Schlereth at the end of the season, you know how nasty he can be. There has been talk that he could be a closer in the future. Also, let’s see what happens with Coke in the starting rotation. I see the possibility that next year this trade could look even better. DD will absolutely be remembered for this one.
AGREE!!! It was the last 4 outings for Schlereth. Potentially, the Tigers have the makings of 1 of the best Big 5’s of relief in Valverde/Coke/Schlereth/Weinhardt/Perry. I’d give Wilk/Weber/Oliver/Furbush/Villarreal/Brown enough work in Spring Training before deciding on Coke as a starter. Brooks Brown will show up in the AFL.
by StephenGrosberg on Oct 6, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Another
I also hope Seay can make it back to the way he was last year…
AJax may have been a little lucky with the bat . . .
But keep in mind Fangraphs WAR uses UZR to measure defense, when all the other systems had Jackson way higher defensively. He’s probably more of a true +5 to +10 CF defensively going forward, so that just makes the trade look even better.
Thanks!
An analysis of these trades had been looming in the back of my mind…I just hadn’t gotten around to doing the research myself. Truly gutsy on DDs part—he’s come out of it looking like a genius thus far.
I always said Granderson would have been more effective batting 5th rather than 1st—-because he has more Power than BA—-but now they have a legitimate lead-off hitter and it’s all history, so it no longer matters.

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