There's an Elephant in the Room!
The greatest need that the Detroit Tigers have this off season is for a starting pitcher, and moving Phil Coke to the rotation doesn't answer any questions. The Tigers had the 12th best pitching staff in 2010, with a gaudy 4.30 team ERA, in a 14 team league. The Tigers had the 11th ranked rotation ERA, with a lofty 4.46 posted by their starting pitching.
This is not to minimize the issues that Dave Dombrowski will face in finding replacements for Johnny Damon and Magglio Ordonez, or in finding some protection in the lineup for the world's best RBI man. The point here is that all the focus in the media that follows the Tigers has been about the lineup. It's been about "A middle of the order bat". Fact is, they need two bats just to break even, but even that does nothing to address what was the Tigers' single biggest problem in 2010: Pitching.
If anyone thinks that the Tigers had an adequate rotation once Max Scherzer and Rick Porcello got themselves sorted out in Toledo, think again. No question that Mad Max and Rick both pitched much better in the second half of the season, but it wasn't enough to save what was a dismal rotation, dragged down by two gaping holes at the back end. The Tigers were no better after the All Star break, posting a 4.31 ERA in the second half. Opponents hit .262 against the Tigers for the season, .263 after the break.
While Verlander and Scherzer delvered a solid one- two punch after the break, with dual WHIP rates of 1.14, and ERAs of 2.89 and 2.47 respectively, the back end let the team down. Porcello posted a second half ERA of 4.00, even while putting up a WHIP of 1.16. With a K/ 9 rate of just 4.97, and only allowing 16 BB's in 92 innings, too many runs were scored. Bonderman and Galarraga were even worse, with ERA's of 4.52 and 6.50, and lofty WHIP rates of 1.36 and 1.61. (WHIP is essentially the number of base runners allowed per inning, excluding errors). In his lone start, Phil Coke gave up an ERA of 5.40 and a WHIP of 1.59, which proves nothing, except my point.
While we read and listen to various reports in the media regarding the Tigers' plans for this off season, all the focus is on V Mart, Crawford, and Werth. That's all well and good, but what about that huge elephant in the living room? He's smelling up the joint and shaking the foundation of the team. The Tigers should not bet their playoff hopes on Phil Coke solving the problems in their rotation. Moving Coke to the rotation only guarantees one thing, and that is they'll need a second reliever for the late innings to set up Valverde, since Coke was the only reliable one they had in 2010. With some $ 34 million allocated to starting pitchers that are no longer on the team, the Tigers can afford to invest in the rotation. In fact, they can't afford not to upgrade the rotation.
So what are the options?
Free agents: Cliff Lee is obviously the premier starting pitcher on the market this off season, and there's no close second. However, he'll cost upwards of $ 150 million for six years if the Tigers want to make a run at him. And he'd cost a first round draft pick, but if they were in line to land Lee, that wouldn't be an issue. It looks very much like the Yankees are going to throw their financial weight around and out bid all other teams for Lee's services. Like his daddy before him, little Hanky Steinbrenner figures "if you can't beat em, BUY em!"
After Lee, you can count on one hand the number of free agent starters that had a decent season in 2010.
- Hiroki Kuroda is 35 years old and might be had on a two year deal, but the perception is that he's probably the next best starting pitcher with a 3.39 ERA and a 1.16 WHIP in a very thin market. He could get a raise on his $ 13 million salary, but may be worth it if he takes his nice numbers to the AL.
-Carl Pavano is a Type A free agent, meaning that if the Twins were to offer him arbitration, Detroit would reward their rivals by giving them the best possible compensation they could get for losing Pavano- the No. 19 overall draft pick. I don't see that scenario happening, but if Pavano were available no strings attached, I'd go after him hard.
- Jon Garland logged 200 innings for San Diego with a respectable 3.47 ERA and a 1.32 WHIP. The former Angels and White Sox starter had success in the AL before switching leagues.
Well, folks, that's it for free agent relievers with an ERA under 4.00. Jake Westbrook is potentially a No. 3 or 4 guy with a 4.22 ERA and a pedestrian 1.34 WHIP ratio. Andy Pettite figures to go back to New York or retire. There is Vicente Padilla who is effective when he isn't on the DL, and there are reclamation projects such as Brandon Webb, Ben Sheets, and Erik Bedard, but the odds of any of them lasting a season, if they pitch at all, might be 50/ 50.
- Jorge DeLaRosa looks like the best of the lefties for those that are fixated on which arm a guy throws with, but he looks like the next Oliver Perez to me. After winning 16 games just two seasons ago, DLR pitched only 121 innings in 2010, and posted a 4.22 ERA with a 1.32 WHIP. All of the above are looking for multi year contracts with the exception of the basket cases, who may take an incentive laden deal in the hope of improving their value in a year.
That leaves the trade market, which is led by a group that I call the G men. Zach Greinke is the leader of this group. With two years left on his contract, the Royals don't figure to be able to keep their former Cy Young winner long enough to do anything meaningful on the field as a team, and he's expressed a desire to get out of Dodge. He'd probably cost Rick Porcello plus Jacob Turner, which is too high in my book. Jeremy Guthrie, Matt Garza, and Gio Gonzalez are pitchers that may be spun off by their current clubs because of salary and arbitration concerns. All are as good, IMO, as any free agent starter other than Lee, and I think that the Tigers have to get active- very active in pursuing one of these pitchers. These same clubs all have other players that might be available in a package deal: Guthrie + Luke Scott, Garza + Bartlett or Zobrist, Greinke + David DeJesus. They won't come cheap- proven pitchers never are inexpensive, but if the Tigers hope to have any chance of contending in 2011, they need to upgrade their rotation.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.
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Nolasco, Josh Johnson if they're available, sure!
Make it Hanley plus Nolasco, and I’d play another game of pick six with the Marlins. Any six minor leaguers that they want!
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Agree completely!
I think the Tigers are a contender with their current group of offensive players if they can add bullpen help and a very solid #2 or #3. And by very solid, I mean Greinke or Lee. (I think we can still contend by adding someone like Guthrie or Garza, but it will also take offensive help.)
Here’s my team that has added Lee or Greinke:
CF Ajax
2B Rhymes
RF Raburn
1B Cabrera
LF Wells
DH Boesch / Streiby
SS Peralta
3B Inge
C Avila
SP Verlander
SP Lee / Greinke
SP Scherzer
SP Porcello
SP Coke / Armando / Oliver
While the lineup doesn’t look all that great (and the #5 and 6 spots are a wide open competition among the entire organization), I think we’re probably good enough to score runs. The bottom is a lot better than we started 2010 and the middle might be as good if Raburn can hit when given regular AB’s.
Meanwhile, the rotation is pretty stout #1-3. That’s 60% of your games where you might not need to score more than 3 runs to win. Beyond that, I’d hope we’re certainly in the game with Porcello at #4 a decent #5 starter.
Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.
my take:
the tigers have the opportunity to be contenders but without the proper offseason moves will end up about .500 again. And signing a big name is what it’s going to take just to maintain that .500, so I need to see some stuff on top of it. The way the team went .500 during a transition season is a nice start though.
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 9, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
Porcello should be considered a #4 starter
Rick might make the leap next year, but if he is the tigers 3rd best starter, then the rotation has problems. We need an established, predictable starter who fits the #2 / #3 slot: Jered Weaver or Adam Wainwright types of players (not that those could be easily had by trade).
I'd say a nice number three
Kuroda is appealing, as is De La Rosa.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Nov 10, 2010 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
DLR scares me.
A career ERA above 5.00, although it’s inching down each season
Only 121 IP in 2010, so there is a health issue
A WHIP never below 1.30, although that’s been going in the right direction also
I’ve always cautioned against picking up players on a two year decline, but at least DLR’s numbers are going in the right direction apart from the drop off in the win column from his 16 Win season in 09. He could be a real find, or he could be the next Oliver Perez.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Yep, not one to rely on
In my opinion, if you sign DLR as a #3 and he get injured or blows up (both of which are much too likely for my taste), you’re in trouble. If you sign him as a #4 or 5, you can probably fill the void with Coke, Galarraga, or Oliver.
Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.
I'm very confused
I have no idea why Greinke’s name keeps coming up. Yes he’s available, but there is no way we would be able to acquire him. The Royals will not want to face their former ace 4 times a year for the rest of his career. Even if we were in talks to get him, it’s going to cost more than just Porcello and Jacobs. I think way to many people are hoping for this and it’s really not going to happen.
With that said, I think we will go out there and acquire a No. 2 or No. 3 starter. Who that may be is beyond me, there are plenty of names out there, but I think we will get one for sure.
by Let's do this! on Nov 10, 2010 11:40 AM EST reply actions
this i agree
like cliff lee you can dream but about 0.1% chance.
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 10, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Let face it pitching wins Championships.
Lets use are minor leagues and TRADE for quality pitching.I don’t want to give up Oliver or Turner but there are some others that we could trade Furbish,Vilreala,Gallaraga maybe even Porcello. But I want one outstanding pitcher Grienke,Garza or Arroyyo and maybe a fitth starter.Leave Coke in the Bullpen he’s a better fit there.Then ad two other relief pitchers.That way when our starter go’s 6 innings the bullpin can close out the game remember 2006 we got to the World Series because PITCHING.
Nobody's mentioned Oliver, have they?
He could come up and put up decent numbers this season.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
There's possibilities and then there are probabilities
Do you want to bet your playoff hopes on Andy Oliver?
I’d hold one spot for Galarraga, Coke, Oliver, etc, and chances are that one of the other four (assuming DD does his job and gets another 3- 4 starter) won’t go a full 33- 34 starts, so two of them will have to step up. But Andy showed no signs of being able to command his off speed stuff sufficiently to pitch in the majors. I think he will be a good one, but I’d rather they let him earn a job than thrust him into a starting role out of need, as they did briefly last summer. If and when he does get command of his secondary offerings, I think he’s probably a 3 PDQ.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Where did I say we should pin our hopes on Oliver?
All I said was that he needs to be considered in the rotation calculus.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Nov 11, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Andy will take a spot when he's ready. I just would not count on him, or on Coke, and pretend that the problem is solved.
The future looks much brighter if you consider Oliver and Turner arriving and reaching anywhere near their potential. It’s that one or two seasons in the interim where DD needs to step up and fill in the gap with a bona fide major league starting pitcher. If Andy puts it all together, that’s great, but I just would not count on that in 2011.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
My question is:
if we are going to trade for a pitcher, why settle for a #3? Why not go for a #2 or better?
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
they should get the best available that they can afford
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 10, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
will there be a huge price difference?
i think if you are going to get something, you might as well get the best you can get
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
Cliff Lee might take a six year, $ 150 million contract or more
Hideki Kuroda may get two or three years, total $ 30- 45 million, but there’s a big drop between the two, talent wise.
A couple others may get 10- 12 mil for 2- 4 years, each at that rate, but they’re No. 3 or 4 starters.
A trade for a primo pitcher like Zach Greinke would take a couple of premium players near major league ready with a ceiling of Greinke. Think Porcello and Jacob Turner or another prospect.
A trade for a No. 2 or 3 starter, which I’d favor, might cost Andy Oliver and a Sizemore or Boesch, and they you have to pay him $ 5 million until he is a free agent.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
actually yes
I have the money to buy a nice fast all wheel drive car with a turbo engine. But if I did that it would screw my budget and give me little margin of error going forward.
The Tigers need to get the best player they can that doesn’t put the future at risk. Don’t put all the eggs in one basket.
If they can get a frontline starter, they should. If doing so means you have to hope he doesn’t get injured or drop off during his contract or they’ll be inflexible to do something about it, then I don’t want him.
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 11, 2010 6:23 AM EST up reply actions
Yep, that's the risk
I think that the long-term contract is what to avoid here. Obviously, the team has money to spend this year and even more bad money comes off the book next year with Guillen. I wouldn’t mind spending big this year and next year, but to tie up the money in 2013 starts to get risky because we’re already committed to JV and Cabby for big bucks. Also, our needs might change over that time frame and we’ll be on the market for 3B and SS. There really needs to be a long term plan in place. I’d like our signings this year to be two or three year deals, but I also realize that it will take a 4 or 5 year deal to get Werth, Carwford, Lee or VMart. I’d still like one of those, but adding two would lock up our payroll for 4 or more years.
Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.
And Gammons was talking about four or five years for V Mart?
NOT!
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
My hope for VMart
I’d love to get him for 2-3 years 13M annually. He’s going to want 4-5 years at 20M annually, but I don’t think anyone will bite. He’ll have to accept lesser years or salary. Maybe the Tigers can overpay a bit for a shorter contract.
Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.
He can't even dream of $ 20 mil per year.
If you scan the market for catchers, you can see that they don’t make that much. Catchers that can hit like V Mart are rare, but catchers just don’t get that kind of money. The highest contract ever was Piazza’s 13 mil per year for 7 years. Mauer is starting to make 23 mil next season, then you drop all the way down to Posada at 13 mil, and it drops very sharply from there. 12- 13 mil puts him way up on the pay scale, and if he’s mainly DH’ing, you could argue that’s too much.
He just happens to have a great bat, and isn’t purely a DH, so he stands out among the bats that are available.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Oh, I agree he won't get it
But I think that’s the initial asking price. 80M/4yr or 90M/5yr. Naturally, that will come down as the off-season progresses.
That Posada deal would be a decent comparison. After 2007, Posada was 36 and coming off a very VMart-like season. Actually, Posada 2007 was better than we can probably expect from VMart. However, VMart has a better history of doing it consistently. Posada gets 52M/4yr, so there’s your yardstick.
Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.
Now the Rangers join the Red Sox and Tigers chasing V Mart
Uh Oh! If the Rangers have the check book open for Lee, and get blown out of the water by the Yankers, they may throw a bundle at V Mart.
Posada got a horrible contract, and he got Yankee dollars. You can’t compare Yankee contracts to human contracts. Catchers just don’t get over $ 13 million per year, with the exception of a gold glove batting champ like Mauer. $ 12 mil for 3- 4 years is where he probably lands.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
That's what you get for watching the Lions and "night of the living dead" on the same weekend!
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
oh goodness no
I would never watch the Lions, no way no how.
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 11, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
They get you subliminally
You don’t even know you’re watching. I canceled the Sunday Ticket to get away from them and they still creep in! I wake up in a cold sweat with images of Greg Landry and Tommy Hudspeth zombies dancing in my head! But I believe the images of elephants were subliminally transmitted by Fox during the world series.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Now that was fun
I hadn’t seen those videos before. Let’s warn Heather Nabozny
Lets not get stuck with bad long term contracts.
If a lot of other teams want to over pay and sign these top free agents to insane long term contracts let them.We need to be smart with are money and yrs of contracts.Have we all forgotten all the bad contracts we have just gotten rid of the last few years.I would rather over pay on a one or two yr deal.I think are best plan is to make a couple big trades with all the minor leauge talent we have now.Lets start shopping Porcello,Rayburn,Boesch,Wells,Schealrath,Sizemore,Worth,Galaraga,Guillen every body but Oliver and Turner.And see what kind of deals we could get remember last years trade.
Kuroda to sign with Dodgers for only 8 mil?
Via MLBTR
Free agent right-hander Hiroki Kuroda is on the verge of an agreement with the Dodgers, reports Japanese site Sanspo.com (as translated in this tweet from NPBTracker). The contract would be a one-year deal worth approximately $8MM.
Who is this guy’s agent? Doesn’t he know that he is the second best free agent starting pitcher on the market? One year? Only $ 8 million? DD- get on the horn and offer two years, $ 20 million. It’d be a steal!
The Dodgers have already signed Lilly
Pettite will only go to New York or retire
The Yanks and Rangers will offer megabucks to Cliff Lee
Now Kuroda signs for a $ 5 million pay cut? That’s insane!
That also leaves little to nothing on the free agent market for good starting pitchers.
de la Rosa, Westbrook, Padilla, Garland……. won’t be long until Bonderman is the best one left!
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Gonna be time for DD to test the trade waters for SP
I really don’t like the waiting and uncertainty though. I just hope he does something about the starting pitching this offseason.
by ozymandius1024 on Nov 14, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
Pavano, de la Rosa, Westbrook, and Garland are really all that's left
Lilly’s gone, Kuroda’s gone
Padilla, Webb, Sheets, Harden and Bedard are the walking wounded
Vazquez, Millwood, and Garcia are mainly washed up
Correia, Suppan, Moseley, Duke, Maholm, and Harang don’t interest me
Pettite will play in New York or retire
There’s Bonderman, and Chad Durbin
Then, there are the possible trade candidates:
Greinke, Garza, Guthrie, Gio Gonzalez, Arroyo, Wandy Rodriguez, Zambrano, Nolasco, and Meche are on the list
The Black Sox might move a starter, such as Buehrle or Edwin, but not to Detroit
The Stroh’s aren’t going anywhere in 2011 and Wandy has a year left. If they don’t lock him up, he would be a nice pick up.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
I think DD will do the right thing.
Anyone who can get the Tigers Coke/Schlereth for minus has to go to the head of the class in my book. Keep in mind, however, that those foolish teams wanted our player. That’s the best kind of deal. Turner and Porcello are stars in the making, with some evidence. Wilk/Furbush/Oliver/ Villarreal/Weber/Figaro/L.J. Gagnier are 1/2 a season away. Hopefully the panic will end when Spring Training begins.
by StephenGrosberg on Nov 15, 2010 2:55 PM EST reply actions
We need to trade for pitching ASAP
If we can Trade for a proven young # 1 or 2 starer we need to make the trade.So many young prospects never make it or are just average at best.If we can pull off a young proven major league stater let do it now.I would like to keep Turner and Oliver but they might not be major league ready yet.We still have a lot of trade chips Schlereth,Wilks,Furbish,Villareal,Figaro and Gallaraga.Hows this for a rotation Verlander,Garza,Scherzer,Porsello,(Oliver or Coke).Id rather have Coke in the bullpen.Then sign a couple free agent relievers so our stater can go 6 innings and game over.

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