Surveying the Tiger Farm: Third Basemen
To this point, I've been a little bit doom and gloom about the Tigers' system. Knocking on Tiger prospects isn't really my style, but I also try to be realistic. When looking at the Tigers' catching, first base and second base prospects, I have a hard time seeing a lot of guys who we can expect to have big league futures. True, I may get an email from their college roommate who thinks I need to get out and watch the games if I don't think his boy isn't going to play for the Tigers some day. But my job, as I see it, is to take the information available and make honest assessments. I don't feel bad about doing that as long as I don't take cheap shots at others' expense.
I admit, though, that it gets a little old to try to make honest guesses at what level of the minors various players will find is their ceiling. After all, we don't watch prospects in order to be there when they run into harsh reality. We do it in the hopes that they will break through the barrier between the minors and majors and establish themselves as useful big leaguers. For those of us who root for specific teams, we like the thought of knowing a star "back when".
That's why I'm kind of glad to have come to the Tigers' third base prospects. Going over this group, I don't know that the Tigers have a star but it's a lot easier to see that potential. That's especially exciting when you consider there was quite a long spell where the Tigers' most exciting third base prospect was chasing down minor league home run records.
Toledo
The Mud Hens' most common third basemen in 2010 were Jeff Larish and Danny Worth. Both players are out of position at the hot corner and Jeff Larish isn't even in the system anymore. I'm not going to cover Worth in this piece either because when you add in his time with the Tigers, he actually played more shortstop than third base in 2010.
Erie
Audy Ciriaco, .241/.264/.419, 251 PA, 8 BB, 49 K; Ciriaco's season was cut short by a bothersome wrist injury that didn't seem to allow him to stay in the lineup for more than a few weeks at a time. I did a bit of a contrarian piece pointing out a pattern of him playing pretty well for a couple weeks before tailing off and going back on the DL. It could just be a bit of a Rorschach test, though. Ciriaco's .264 on-base percentage was pretty well in line with his career mark of .271. Still, the power was real and though it seems like he's been around forever, he's still just 23. 2011 Outlook: Ciriaco is in an interesting place. He could probably be Erie's starting shortstop, but the Tigers seem to think he'll outgrow the position. Nobody's really blocking him at third in Toledo, but is he ready for Triple A? In a season where he desperately needs to show growth and good health, Ciriaco isn't going to be an easy man to place. My guess is a sink or swim assignment in Toledo.
Bryan Pounds, .281/.359/.438, 210 PA, 21 BB, 52 K; Pounds seemed like he was promoted to Erie more because options were limited than performance. After all, he went on the DL in May, rehabbed for a couple games in the GCL, and then spent just four more games in Lakeland before getting the call up to the Wolves. Interestingly, he hit better in Erie than he had in Lakeland. It was mostly due to a big uptick in power. He also continued to draw walks in one of ten trips to the plate, helping boost production even further and taking off some of the sting of striking out another quarter of the time. 2011 Outlook: At 25, it's hard to argue for Pounds as a prospect but he also seems like too good of a hitter to just let walk. He could give Erie some good at bats, and probably even push for Toledo if the Tigers aren't ready to challenge Ciriaco. I don't envy the Tigers when they have to divvy up the third base assignments next spring.
Francisco Martinez, .271/.330/.353, 374 PA, 28 BB, 71 K; Martinez provided another wonderful example why you shouldn't worry too much about GCL stats. He was dreadful there in 2009, but still drew a Lakeland assignment in 2010 when the Flying Tigers lost Bryan Pounds. At just 19, he held his own at Hi-A, putting up numbers that were right about league average. He wasn't exactly Frank Thomas, but he showed a pretty decent touch with the strike zone and also mixed in some speed. Baseball America had him as the Tigers' top position prospect behind only Nick Castellanos, and hopefully the push to be the Tigers' next starting third baseman will be a positive for both players. 2011 Outlook: A move to Erie would seem to be very aggressive, but the Tigers did send him to the Arizona Fall League. They seem to view that as somewhere between Lakeland and Erie, and that would clear the way for Gaynor in Lakeland and Castellanos in West Michigan.
West Michigan
Wade Gaynor, .286/.354/.436, 574 PA, 46 BB, 111 K; When the Tigers drafted Gaynor third in the 2009 draft and he fell on his face in Oneonta, I couldn't help but be reminded of Ronnie Bourquin. So it was good to see Gaynor recover nicely in West Michigan in 2010. He hit the ball very well, showing average, some power, and willingness to watch ball four. His OBP is a little deceptive considering he was plunked ten times, but I suppose that can be a skill, too, as long as you're catching them in the meat of your back. He also showed good speed, which may have to serve him well - along with a third baseman's arm - if guys like Martinez and Castellanos force him off third and into a corner outfield spot. 2011 Outlook: The natural choice would be to just bump him up to Lakeland, but that may depend on what happens with Martinez. If Martinez is in Lakeland, does Gaynor's time at third end already?
Connecticut
Josh Ashenbrenner, .260/.327/.339, 255 PA, 18 BB, 19 K; Ashenbrenner made a lot of contact in Connecticut but usually didn't get to go past first when it fell in for a hit. That left him as a touch below average in the NY-Penn, but a little better luck with BABIP could make him a serviceable hitter. Ashenbrenner was the Tigers' 18th round pick out of Lewis-Clark State, which may sound familiar if you're a fan of Brent Wyatt. 2011 Outlook: He was called out as a second baseman on draft day, and he might have to try his hand as a utility player if he wants to crack a full season roster in 2010. You may have noticed it will be crowded at third in the system's upper levels and Nick Castellanos would be a good bet to man third in West Michigan.
GCL Tigers
Javier Azcona, .256/.296/.403, 189 PA, 7 BB, 51 K; Azcona is a 19-year-old Dominican who had been a shortstop in the DSL. He was coming to the States at the same time as another shortstop import, Dixon Machado, so I was curious to see who would stay and who would go from the position. Azcona was the one to move, but since he's already 6'1" and 185 pounds, that could just be the Tigers trying to find him a new position before his maturation forces their hand. 2011 Outlook: Extended spring training seems like a possibility, but Azcona spent nearly as much time as a middle infielder (when you combine time at short and second) as he did at third. Machado may have moved him off shortstop, but could Azcona team up with his Venezuelan counterpart to form West Michigan's middle infield (even if not to start the season) next year?
Nick Castellanos, .333/.414/.417, 29 PA, 4 BB, 5 K; The numbers are only shown because they exist. The number that is more important when you think of Castellanos is the $3.45 million bonus the Tigers were comfortable giving their first round supplemental pick - a record for that round. It shows they likely viewed him as one of the top ten players in last year's draft and I'm sure they hope he'll provide some star power that is desperately needed from the system's position players. Thoughts on his defensive aptitude seem to vary, but there seems to be more consensus that he should be a plus hitter with doubles power and a chance to peak somewhere in the 20s in terms of home runs. 2011 Outlook: I've had him penciled in as the Whitecaps' third baseman in 2011 since August 15th.
Positional Outlook
I hope it doesn't seem like I was gushing too much about these players. I don't want to oversell the potential here. The truth is I'm not sure how many people who watch the minors as a whole are thinking much about any of these players besides Castellanos. It's hard to deny, though, that there is some potential in guys like Martinez and Gaynor. The scout types even get pretty excited about Ciriaco, and those are all thing you just haven't heard about this position in the past few years. If I'm a little overzealous, it's probably because this position has very quickly gone from being the Tigers' worst source of talent to its most promising.
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Haha
Funny how that can happen in one year. We go from being weak at the Hot Corner to being weak… well, everywhere else.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
No we aren't.
Just ask Grosberg.
I was for the Alexander trade when it happened, and I'd do 'er again!
by 77bestrookieclassever on Dec 21, 2010 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Another great piece, Matt.
It’s good to know that we at least have some potential somewhere in the minors at spots that are more than 60’6" out!
I was for the Alexander trade when it happened, and I'd do 'er again!
by 77bestrookieclassever on Dec 21, 2010 2:01 PM EST reply actions
Thanks
Thanks Matt. I’m not close enough to any of the Tigers minor league teams to see them play so I really enjoy and appreciate your assessments of the farm system. It gives me some idea of what the Tigers have. Thanks again.
Put Wade Gaynor on a FAST track.
He earned it based on continued improvement throughout the season. He just had difficulty with a wooden bat at Conn and West Mich. at first. If he hits at Lakeland, move him to Erie even if it’s OF or DH. Wake up Tigers, this is a potential star. His final #‘s were OK too. I still want to try Rawley Bishop at 3B. Bryan Pounds is worth a bigger look based on stats. If the Tigers don’t treat them better, they would be part of the package to KC if they traded me to KC as GM as someone suggested and wanted Greinke. I could do a trade with ALL non 25 man players.
by StephenGrosberg on Dec 21, 2010 3:21 PM EST reply actions
Nice article
Martinez was solid with the bat in Lakeland last season. It was nice to see that his numbers continued in the AFL. He’s worth keeping an eye on BUT the power numbers must increase IMO.
Stephen mentioned Rawley Bishop and I must agree. I only observed him play 3B a couple games in Lakeland but it wasn’t that bad. With Cabby holding down first why not shift Bishop to third at least for a trial? His bat was pretty solid and Id hate to watch him get stuck behind Cabrera if his development continues.
I am excited to see what Gaynor can do in Lakeland. He picked it up in the second half after a less than stellar output the first couple months.
We aren’t extremely deep but with Nick and a few other long shots things are looking up.
by JAYRC on Dec 21, 2010 4:14 PM EST via mobile reply actions
GREAT COMMENT ON BISHOP!!!
I’ve suggested it many times and it always comes up that he doesn’t want to play 3B, even though he’s played there before. The experiment has no risk. The key is to get him to Toledo as a Dh also if Strieby is not 100%. Bishop started slowly at both Lakeland and Erie, but came on strong. He’s my first up DH behind Strieby. Andy Dirks is also in the DH picture. As Gaynor plays well, they should promote him to Erie. The whole key is getting used to his wooden bat. The kid is a hitter. Nick should be on a decently fast track. Thanks for your comment on Bishop’s fielding. We’ll be looking forward to your first hand comments on seeing Lakeland. That includes Gaynor, Cole Nelson, Shawn Teufel, Matt Little, and Jeff Rowland, if he’s promoted. Sorry to get off the subject, but we should make use of “JAYRCinLakeland.”
by StephenGrosberg on Dec 22, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
Why DH Dirks?
Isn’t he one of your favorites? If so, keep him in the field so he can develop into a 2-way player.
The DH situation in Detroit will certainly not need help in 2011. VMart will be the primary DH…probably 90-100 games. I don’t expect injury from VMart; he’s been durable during his career and moving to DH should only help. Beyond that, our RF and LF (Maggs and Raburn) are both probably better off at DH than in the field. When VMart catches, I would move one of these two to the DH spot and give Wells/Boesch the start in the OF. Then, we might get Guillen back at some point…another DH candidate.
What the system needs to focus on this year is producing good defensive OF that can step in next year for Maggs or Raburn and allow us to trade Raburn / Wells / Boesch / Thomas.
Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.
our current lineup of DH's are not young unproven players and are clearly expendable.
and I’d argue more that getting better in the infield is a larger concern right now.
No problem in the IF with Worth/Santiago as the extras.
I use DH as extra AB when the fielding is excellent as per Dirks/Wells. The key with the Tigers is Boesch. Based on the conditioning for Worth and him this Winter, they could be surprises. The strategy is to test what you have to determine who is first up if a DL develops. Toledo is the goal for Bishop/Douglas to join Strieby/Sizemore. They will provide the depth necessary without FA and trades. Now let’s get to Spring Training. I’m betting on Worth vs. Kelly. By the way, Worth has shown he can hit LHP.
by StephenGrosberg on Dec 26, 2010 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
In that case, Wells/Dirks is what the Tigers should develop.
Strieby would get first up Dh if VMart goes DL. Next would be Dirks/Bishop. VMart gives them a great deal of flexibility since he and Avila share the catching thereby not needing a backup. I try to plan ahead to give the players added incentive. Wait till they eagerly await the “first ups.”
by StephenGrosberg on Dec 25, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
Too little too late
Verlander will be in Yankee pinstripes and Cabrera near the end of his contract before any of those guys are ready to break into the majors. Go get Beltre or trade for Moustakas. Tigers should be in a win now mode. But judging by this off-season (resigning Peralta and Inge and signing a backstop on the downside of his career and a reliever with a career 4.50 ERA) they are in “wait til 2013 or 2014 or later” mode.
That's my reaction too.
I was for the Alexander trade when it happened, and I'd do 'er again!
by 77bestrookieclassever on Dec 21, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
wait a minute
someone got MLive in my Bless You Boys
Blatant Twitter Promotion, rarely updated, occasionally funny
by rock n rye on Dec 21, 2010 9:59 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yes, because Adrian Beltre isn't in the downside of his career either
I’ve seen some negativity here, but damn.
by ozymandius1024 on Dec 22, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
Beltre is not the answer
He’s proven that he only post big numbers in contract years, showing a lack of motivation, not necessarily skills. If we can get him for a one year contract, then okay, otherwise, it’s a waste of money that could be better spent on a SP or bullpen arm
LOL
I don’t think Verlander will ever pitch for the Yankees. I doubt the Tigers will ever let him go unless they go into a rebuilding mode, then it would be via trade. Wouldn’t be suprised to see them ink him to an extension this year
Don't know if you got the memo
But Verlander already signed an extension, and he’s signed through 2014.
by ozymandius1024 on Dec 22, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
a backstop on the downside of his career?
Vmart is only 32 (almost) and has a whole lot of baseball left in him.
President & Founder of the "Bring back the Big Tilde in 2k11" Campaign
32 is on the start of old age for baseballs most demanding position.
he could easily catch for awhile longer, and will have the ability in his time with the Tigers more then likely. But the question is, will we want him to catch and will anyone else want him to catch when his time here is up?
Castellanos question
If the decision is eventually made that he is not a 3B, does he profile more as a 2B or a corner OF?
based on what I know about him I'd say outfield
by Kurt Mensching on Dec 21, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Outfield
It’d be his footwork that would move him out of the IF, so why move him to 2B?
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Dec 22, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
I'd bank on OF
or maybe a part time 1B/DH.. He’s 6’4 so 2B probably won’t happen
Rod Allen's humor consultant
That's OK
we already have Will Rhymes, and he’s scrappy.
I was for the Alexander trade when it happened, and I'd do 'er again!
by 77bestrookieclassever on Dec 21, 2010 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
Nice article
Sure you all saw Detroit news Instructional league Recap today but 3rd Basemen……
Francisco Martinez (20, 6-1, 180, 3B): “He’s got soft hands, good range, an accurate arm, and I believe he’s going to fill out and be a major league player,” Harrah said. “He’s just a baby and holding his own out here (Arizona Fall League). Good speed, hits to all fields. Pretty good idea of the strike zone. What a young player.”
Wade Gaynor (22, 6-4, 225, 3B, third-round pick in 2009): “Kind of like Alan Trammell — a kid with a blue-collar work ethic,” Harrah said. “Smart, hard worker, good feel for the game, real accurate with throws. He’s got power. Another one of the bright prospects.”
Nick Castellanos (18, 6-4, 195, 3B, Tigers’ first pick in 2010): “When I watch players, the tools are pretty obvious, so I look for players who have holes, because eventually you have to eliminate those holes, or when they get to the big leagues, they’ll explode big-time,” Harrah said. "You look at Nick and you see a guy who hits the ball to all fields with good bat speed, and when he centers it, it comes off the bat really well. And he runs surprisingly well when he’s on base — he’s got those long strides. He’s got a high ceiling.
From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20101221/SPORTS0104/12210329/Tigers-pitching-prospects—hitters-impress-in-Lakeland#ixzz18oaR36z8
"Always 1984"
Thanks Hack.
Many thanks on Gaynor and Castellanos. Positives help slow movers to move faster. It removes some of the slow promotion attitude.
by StephenGrosberg on Dec 22, 2010 11:00 AM EST up reply actions

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