An Investigation: Joel Zumaya
by madpoopz on Feb 12, 2010 3:46 PM EST
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PrintThe news as of late has been nearly exclusively about Johnny Damon. Frankly, I'm tired of that story (sign him already!). So I decided to think of something pitching related to once again lend some insight into. Looking over the Tigers roster I decided to investigate Joel Zumaya and the ever injured shoulder.
By investigation I mean I watched a few videos.
And by "ever injured shoulder" I mean I don't expect Joel to have a long healthy Tigers career.
The "investigation" after the jump.
First some videos to observe:
And a video from PitchingClips.com for good measure.
Investigation:
First I'd like to explain to you guys a term commonly used within pitching mechanics and often used within the mechanics themselves. The term is scapular loading. The link takes you to a great article explaining the term while showing you the right and wrong way to do it. I'm going to try and summarize what that says for you.
Basically it's all about the shoulders (see the connection to Joel?). Scapular loading essentially is that point within most pitching motions where the shoulder blades come together. Scapular loading is not necessarily a bad thing. As that article points out lots of successful pitchers do it and have long prosperous careers. Randy Johnson is a guy who has done it right along with Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens. And just because I like to use his name in my post's, Justin Verlander does a good job as well. Guys like Mark Prior and Billy Wagner do a pretty lousy job of loading their scapulars.
But what defines the proper way practice scapular loading? Much like a lot of things involving the throwing arm in pitching, the elbow is a key indicator of whether the act is being performed right or wrong. To keep it very simple: If the elbow is below shoulder level at the moment of scapular loading, than it is being done correctly. Anything else is wrong.
Now back to Big Bad Joel Zumaya. He loads his shoulders in the bad way that Mark Prior does. Not as extreme but like I said, anything other than the right way is inherently wrong. Zumaya's loading problem is hardly extreme. But it causes him to walk a fine line with the strength of his shoulder. Before that box fell on his shoulder there was a good chance that Joel would enjoy a pretty good baseball career and make his millions. But what I fear is that the injury to Joel's shoulder has caused him to permanently walk on the wrong side of that fine line. Unless he either stops the practice all together or practices it properly, he will more than likely continue to have shoulder problems in his career.
Heres to hoping that he proves me wrong. But than again, this is probably why we drafter Ryan Perry.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.
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Great work, Poopz
Mechanics are the root of all problems — lack of control and injuries.
Zumaya, unfortunately, has problems with both. And throwing at the force he does, doesn’t help either one.
In Zoom’s case, it can go to the start of his delivery toward home plate.
Here are screen shots from a Spring Training bully:
Shot 1: Nearly perfect, but a lot of pitching coaches prefer the glove be near the hip. Shot 2 and 3 will help explain why that’s the case.
You see, by shot 3, the ball in hand is still down, but his front leg is already near its landing position. That means he has to hurry to get his arm up into the throwing position — and having the whip to throw 100 MPH helps, but it doesn’t make it easy on the arm. (Never mind the fact that it appears he swings his front leg as opposed to the proper way of driving it forward, leading with the middle part of the heel. And it looks awkwardly straight).
Shot 4 (and I imagine what a shot right before Shot 4 would look like) is exactly what my man Poopz is talking about. His elbow is clearly above his shoulder, causing unnecessary stress on the shoulder as he fires off his 100 MPH fastball. He also seems to be a little more upright on that front foot than preferred, which could also be a reason why his elbow is so high.
On the follow through, he pulls his arm all the way… well, through, which is pretty obvious considering the fact he throws so hard, but there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of bend in that front leg which will help his back get into the proper parallel-to-the-ground position. For what it’s worth, Zumaya got a new ball from whoever was watching his pen (presumably his pitching coach), which suggests the result of this pitch was a wild pitch.
This all might seem like nitpicking, but these minor flaws are exactly why some guys get injured and some guys don’t. Of course, there are the rare breeds who never get hurt despite having awful mechanics, and the few who get hurt despite having perfect mechanics. I don’t have those answers, but I think Poopz is exactly right about Zoom. His mechanics, and the force he throws the ball, lumped with the unfortunate “box” incident are reasons why Zoom may never be fully healthy. Sadly.
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great screenshots...
i thought i was noticing that rush of throwing arm right before the GS foot planted but i wasn’t sure so i decided not to mention it.
i could nitpick this a bit more just by these screenshots but they are severly minor nitpicks so i won’t mention them.
just a quick question though…did you use any specific program to get these shots or did you just kinda use an old fashioned method?
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I don’t think there’s such a thing as nitpicking when it comes to pitching mechanics. I say nitpick away. There’s always something to tinker, especially when a guy is continuously getting injured or ineffective.
Very old fashioned & ghetto — play, pause, screenshot, and paste into MS Paint. Repeat.
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I may have an idea on how to make the screenshotting easier...
I’ll provide info if my idea works.
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OK Pack...
I found the solution….
Step 1: First you have to obtain the video. If you can just download it great but for youtube videos I recommend either a program called Miro (freeware) or a Firefox add-on called Media Converter. Personally I use Media Converter.
Step 2: Download and install VLC Media Player. It is a great video/music player with options to caputer screenshots from within the video. You can even slow and speed up video playback.
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Good stuff, fellas
If only we knew what Johnny Damon thinks of Zumaya’s mechanics…
by Ian Casselberry on Feb 12, 2010 6:02 PM EST reply actions
I'm sure he's a big fan of them
not to mention he’s long had an affinity for the White Stripes and Smokey Robinson…
Since he’s a relief pitcher, he might stay healthy for awhile, but it won’t even matter if he doesn’t develop a great secondary pitch.
When Trevor Hoffman was 24 years old he was a hard thrower much like Zumaya, then he tore his rotator cuff during the off-season diving for a football at a beach. He never threw hard again, but he learned to throw a devastating change-up. He then earned himself a closers job and ended up being one of the best at his craft.
Zumaya hasn’t had any rotator cuff or labrum injuries to the shoulder, so he could be healthy again despite his mechanics.
Here’s a list of his major injuries-
Non union stress fracture of corocoid process
Corocoid process
AC joint separation
Ruptured Tendon Middle Finger
The thing is
Zumaya does have a great secondary pitch in the curve videoed (is that a word?) above. He doesn’t use it enough on those occasions where he’s actually healthy enough to pitch. The fact that his fastball is straight as a string and he doesn’t have the greatest command in the world leads to him getting knocked around more than you’d like.
truthfully...
with Zumaya’s curve and a backed off fastball (not blow-guys-away speed), he could be remain very effective as a pitcher if he improved on his control. One thing he could do is increase his stride length with his GS foot. Basically it helps by just getting you closer to the batter at release.
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This is the one guy ive lost.....
……faith in….He just hasnt been healthy since Leyland over used him in 06…..Not sure he will be around much longer…..Hope he proves me wrong…..When he pitches im always more worried then when Rodney pitched.
by BennieBladesFan on Feb 12, 2010 10:52 PM EST reply actions
The Truth
Fact is, the guy’s hurt himself from sillyness, much more than mechanics. His “odd” mechanics have allowed him to throw the pill consistently faster than any human in history.
Reality is, that between “Guitar Hero” and riding ATV’s – err…“moving boxes” – the guy’s turned a potential legendary career into a “what if” one.
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his mechanics were causing him to walk a very fine line.
It’s obvious that a breakdown of some sort was going to happen at some point, especially in the shoulder area. He doesn’t have “odd” mechanics, he has “bad” mechanics. Proper pitching is all about creating a good kinetic chain. Doing such involves properly using all of the bodies muscles from the feet into the shoulder and arm and distributing the work load as evenly among those various parts as evenly as possible.
I’m not saying his recklessness didn’t help but these problems were bound to happen.
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i agree this is some great suff
i think we’ve summed up zoom’s past, present, and likely future well here. between his penchant for getting hurt through bad luck, bad mechanics and bad box moving, the guy is not someone we can count on. poopz’s analysis just gives more proof to that. would be interesting to see if there are any other bad mechanics on the club…anyone look at how porcello or perry throws?
I was thinking about making Perry my next subject...
seeing as he’s our back up Zumaya and all. Makes sense to move on to him next.
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do Perry next
This is really interesting stuff, Poopz – excellent work. I’m enjoying the discussion.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
mad poop story
didn’t know we had a doctor of pitching in our midst…how many years you pitch in the majors poopz? sounds like a john clayton article…super genious…zumayas problem is he needs to grow up and become a professional..no more video games, atv riding, motorcycle daredeviling…just be a pro, or its gonna be over soon.
not a doc and never pitched...
played 3rd and OF in little league though. I was a terrible hitter though.
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You forgot his mechanics
Those are also a problem.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Feb 13, 2010 1:54 AM EST up reply actions
agree with paul wall his posted comments toward madpoopz
venture , my guess is propertly a fat zero!
by '' spiderman '' on Feb 13, 2010 4:39 AM EST up reply actions
so because Poopz isn't a doctor
Zumaya’s mechanics are just fine? You don’t have to have a medical degree to know that throwing a baseball really really hard is an unnatural act that puts a lot of strain on the body, and you don’t have to be a doctor to have the ability to read about what are good pitching mechanics, what are the signs of bad pitching mechanics, and check out some video and compare them to the information you have learned.
Does Joel Zumaya need to commit himself to being a professional? That would help a lot – but if the way he throws puts so much strain on his body that he’s going to rip it to pieces then all the clean living and committed attitude in the world isn’t going to help extend his career because the muscles and ligaments don’t care.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
And ad hominem attacks don’t advance an argument, facts do.
Demonstrate why you think Zumaya’s pitching mechanics aren’t a concern for the future. You don’t even need to have a medical degree to participate in the discussion, either. :)
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
to be honest Baroque...
I really couldn’t tell if should’ve been offended. But thanks for defending my malpractice. :)
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wasn't sure either
but forget any of the skeptics, poopsz. we need this kind of analysis and insight. looking forward to your investigation of perry…..ryan, of course. (i’m assuming jim and gaylord must have had good mechanics – and spittters – because they each pitched for 50 years.)
heh
“You are wrong because of this and that” is fine, but “you are wrong because I don’t agree with you” is kind of pointless.
Besides, non-expert commentary is what all sports fandom is built on. Why else would anyone not actually working for a team’s front office be talking about who to get for the team, how much he should be paid, and where he should fit in the lineup? :D
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
FYI
The last two Tigers pitching coaches Rick Knapp and Chuck Hernandez never pitched in the Majors.
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Jim Leyland never played in the majors.
Some people are just better suited to do something else within baseball.
This kind of madness....
Is why I will follow Kurt through the gates of hell. Well struck my friend. Until the next time you bring the knowledge of baseball I will feel empty. Peace to all.
Mike Marshall
Teriific analysis! I agree with your assertion that Zumaya will probably have a short career and will never get a Verlander contract. Which is really unfortunate beccause the kid was electric in 06. He had it all, speed, no fear, and was a huge fan favorite before it all started to slip away.
I have often wondered why a team hasn’t taken a chance on the teachings of someone Dr. Mike Marshall, the one time Tiger, with a Phd in Kinesiology from Michigan State, who has written a book for parents with sons who are high school pitchers.
I’ve heard him as a guest on several sports talk shows and if I remember correctly it was only after making changes in his delivery (and ignoring pitching coach advice) that he became a dominant relief pitcher. If Zumaya crashes and burns again, why not have him work with Marshall and try some of his unorthodox, yet logical theories. There are excerpts from his book for parents of high school pitchers at the link below.
.
http://www.sbnation.com/account/reset_password/OWQSsoFB
good stuff
i agree the article was interesting, but at this stage of zumayas’ career, i think if you start messing with his delivery motion you end up with another dontrelle willis…the guy can throw 101, and consistently throw strikes…leave well enough alone, start messing with these kids now and you’re opening up a whole nother can of worms.I’ve done some coaching at the middle school level, and the biggest thing i would work on was their mindset and mental toughness.No offense mad…just don’t need another willis on our hands !!
I don’t recall too many consistent strikes lately. Maybe this is the perfect time to work with his delivery motion, before he messes up the shoulder any more than he already has and loses all the velocity he has and needs to try to become a junkballer because that’s the only thing he can throw any more.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
I'm a little skeptical
This scapular loading is a new concept for me. I wonder if Matt Mantei or Billy Koch had that type of mechanical problems before they flamed out. I’d like to see a study done on this, otherwise I’ll remain skeptical. I’d like to hear names other than just Mark Prior being the poster boy for this concept. Mark Prior’s problems started with his Achilles heal, then his elbow. His shoulder was the last thing to go bad. A good case study should have hundreds, if not thousands of pitchers. This would be a great assignment for somebody.
My thought was that if a pitcher with bad mechanics was used on a limited basis or on a pitch count, he should be able to have longer more productive career. I’d try to keep Zumaya to a 15 pitch per inning limit. Leyland really abused the crap out him. In Zoom’s last outing before he went on the DL he threw 36 pitches in a single inning. That’s just stupid management.
one point I made with Zumaya...
is that his first injury to his shoulder was not baseball related. One of my contentions is that the unrelated baseball injury possibly weakened the shoulder to where his pitching motion made injury a higher, and likelier risk. Before that first injury it was entirely possible that Zumaya have a perfectly productive career in the role that he was being used.
With Mark Prior I must harp on a point that I made in another comment here. Pitching well is all about executing a proper kinetic chain. Hurt one part of the body used in that chain and it causes the pitcher to overcompensate using other parts of the body (elbow, shoulder). While uninjured it is perfectly possible for these pitchers to have normal careers but because they constantly walk a fine line, a simple injury to one part of the body can easily turn into injuries too multiple parts.
If we add in Zumaya’s rush to get his pitching arm into the throwing position we increase the strain on that shoulder.
But I do understand your point. Two big names aren’t really enough to go off of to make this a full blown conclusion that scapular loading will destroy your career if improperly utilized. I think though that it is enough evidence to suggest that while it may not be Zumaya’s whole problem, it could be a major factor in his oft-injured state.
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overcompensation
You see it all the time in hockey. A guy tweaks his knee, and the next thing you know he needs to have groin surgery because he hurt that to compensate for his sore knee. Eventually it always comes back to bite someone.
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
Zumaya's Biggest Problem
Is between his ears! Joel needs yoga or a good pycho-analyst! Joel’s inner demens and lackof confidence o the mound kill him more than anything else. If Joel threw his curve more often and got his fastball in on batters more often, maybe even hitting a few, nobody would touch him. Nolan Ryan was the greatest fastball pitcher ever, but he left the game with a near .500 record. Joel needs to learn how to pitch to WIN!!!
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