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Around SBN: NFL Week One: Previews and Predictions for all 15 games

Phil Coke, and the Tigers' quest for back of the rotation answers

I'll be taking a closer look at each of the nine themes to watch as spring training progresses. I'll start with the pitching questions.

This much we know: Justin Verlander, Max Scherzer and Rick Porcello will spend spring training tuning up for the regular season, knowing their positions in the rotation are secure so long as they remain healthy.

This much we can assume: The Tigers are keeping a rotation spot warm for Jeremy Bonderman. So long as his arm strength is near to where it was before having surgery to deal with thoracic outlet syndrome in 2008, he's the fourth starter. Justin Verlander thinks he's fine. but February is the time of feel-good stories, so we'll see. Until proven otherwise, I think this is a safe assumption.

The fifth starter could be any of the following: Dontrelle Willis, Nate Robertson, Armando Galarraga, Eddie Bonine, Phil Coke or someone the Tigers trade for. I find that unlikely, but you can never rule these things out.

"You hope you have pretty good options"

manager Jim Leyland was quoted at MLB.com.

Well, you hope. But do they? It's tough to say. Every single pitcher competing for a rotation spot has done something pretty well in the past. Every single one of them has issues with their game. And several of them have dealt with injuries, leaving us absolutely no guess as to what will happen this season.

In other words, they're the ideal back-of-the-rotation candidates.

Star-divide

I'm going to use the projected FIP (using CHONE) from FanGraphs.com as a guide.

LHP Dontrelle Willis

CHONE laughs at the thought of Willis pitching. Willis admits he's terrible, and to deal with it he is refusing the Tigers' suggested treatment for possible psychological issues. Honestly, I'm just not going to waste much time on this one. I hope the Tigers don't either.

LHP Nate Robertson

Robertson started 2009 horrible and lost his place in the rotation. He had growth removed from his pitching elbow. He came back and pitched relatively well, then injured himself again and had surgery on his groin during the offseason. CHONE has him at a 4.81 FIP, which is actually an improvement over both 2008 and 2009. If healthy, he should do better than that. Maybe not greatly better. But I'd take a 4.50 ERA out of him.

LHP Phil Coke

Fangraphs' Dave Cameron does not like the idea of Coke starting and sees him more as a LOOGY, which is more or less how the Yankees used him. Of course the Yankees' starting pitching staff cost a fortune and Coke had no chance to crack it after starting in the minor leagues. Cameron didn't like Coke's splits in the majors. In the minors, Coke's splits looked a lot more like a starting pitcher. While it is true major league data should trump minor league numbers, I think it's a bit premature to rule out Coke as a starter. CHONE's expectations are a 4.16 FIP and the best K/BB ratio of the bunch.

RHP Armando Galarraga

Galarraga wowed the fans with a deceiving 3.73 ERA in his first season with the Tigers. He kept it up for the first month of the 2009 season. Then it all fell apart. With rather mundane peripherals and an unsustainably low batting average on balls in play in 2008, a step back was a given. But he took about three steps back and never again looked like a viable starter after April. CHONE thinks this is a likely scenario for 2010 and issues a 5.01 FIP.

RHP Eddie Bonine

Bonine might be the underdog-of-choice for some fans. He stepped up several times as a spot starter for the Tigers in big games. You might remember the story of traveling across the country to spring training with his mother, who was dying of cancer at the time and has since died. Or maybe you just like the Mohawk. CHONE, however, has no place for tugging at the heart strings (or Mohawks) and has him at a 5.04 FIP.

RHP Jeremy Bonderman

Bonderman tried a couple of times in 2009 to make a comeback but suffered from decreased velocity and control, giving his stats an ugly tint. If he continues to pitch like that, the Tigers are probably in deep, deep trouble, given the above projections. CHONE puts him at a 4.83 FIP (and an even-worse 5.10 ERA). I have to believe if he's healthy for the first time since 2007, he'll put up better numbers than that. Of course, counting on Bonderman being healthy might be the same as counting on Joel Zumaya being healthy, or counting on Carlos Guillen being healthy.

Conclusion

Anyone who is too high on the Tigers' rotation should probably be selling right now. Because after the first three -- all of whom also have a few questions after career highs in innings -- it gets a bit frightening.

But how bad is it really? It's hard to say what an average fourth or fifth starter actually looks like in the American League. An article at Hardball Times by Jeff Sackmann in 2007 (note: anything more recent, please tell me in the comments)  found the average ERA of a fourth starter to be 4.82 and the fifth starter to be 4.96. Obviously, these numbers would vary from year to year. But it seems to be intuitively correct. An average starting pitcher in the MLB should be considered the third starter. Below-average pitchers will be fourth or fifth starters.

The Tigers will likely be like every other team. Some pitchers will perform better than expectations. Some will perform worse. The tough task will be figuring out which of the above six guys falls into which category. If Dave Dombrowski, Leyland and staff do that well, the Tigers should be around average, anyway.

Still, it's not a pretty picture, is it?

So the Tigers really must see what Coke can do. Not only is he left-handed, not only does that open up a spot in the bullpen, but he appears to be the best hope. Maybe he is a LOOGY. But what if he isn't?

What have they really got to lose in finding out?

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Well

This is why four-man rotations are superior.

I know we’re not built for it, I’m just pointing it out.

by metatron5369 on Feb 19, 2010 12:26 PM EST reply actions  

I myself also...

believe teams should give 4 man rotations a try. They would be able to use a roster spot for another reliever, and this would allow the teams to make sure thier SPs don’t have to pitch too long into games.

With 4 SPs, teams would be putting thier best starters out more often and this should help win more games.

I read something a few years back by Bill James talking about this issue. He looked at some 4 man rotations in the 1970s and even one Royals rotation from the 80’s and found it didnt increase risk of pitcher injury.

Most studies show pitchers get hurt when they are pitching while fatigued. Like when they are trying to throw 99 mph after 120+ pitches. But with todays bullpens, plus another extra releiver available on the roster, managers could make sure thier pitchers don’t have to stay in games too long.

I personally think it would work.

by jpolut on Feb 19, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

What we need is a LTSOGY

The mythical Left handed twenty seven out guy.

Or maybe not so mythical, Randy Johnson fit that description, once up on a time.

I guess that makes Harry Leroy Halladay III a RTSOGY.

Anyway, as much say it surprises me to say this, I’m hoping Nate Robertson wins the 5th starter spot coming out of camp. He had a couple of frightful performances at the end of last year, but he also showed a few sparks out what got him that crazy contract in this first place. It’d be nice to know that those weren’t flukes, that injuryt aside, a semi-competant major league pitcher still exists behind that wad of gum.

Official BYB Juju Consultant...now accepting rally creature applications!

by ahtrap on Feb 19, 2010 12:35 PM EST reply actions  

Piggybacking

Is a strategy we used in 2008 with Willis and…someone. Robertson? That would be odd, since they’re both LHP. Anyway, I wish that we’d consider it again.

We’ve got a lot of this type of pitcher; sketchy swing-man types that may or may not give you 4 innings a game. The idea is to use bad starters for a shorter time to give them the ability to throw hard, and use as many pitches as necessary, without worrying about pace. But the “second starter” is just that. You’re in the rotation, just not in at the beginning of the game. Here’s how I would set it up:

True Starters:
1) JV
2) Porcello
3) Scherzer

Piggybacks:
4) Bonderman/Galarraga
5) Robertson/Miner

True Bullpen:
1) Valverde
2) Ni
3) Coke
4) Seay
5) Zumaya/Perry, or both, if you carry 13 pitchers.

Obviously, a LH-heavy pen, but it’s a RH-heavy rotation, so they’ll see work. I think you could justify putting Coke in as Bondo’s second, as well, so that you get a hand switch. I happen to agree with the assessment that he might be better off as a LOOGY. The idea in the piggybacks is to mix styles (hands if possible), to hopefully make opposing managers do odd things, and run them out of late inning options. It also requires some restraint with the True Bullpenners.

I don't want to hear any weak sh*t from Jason Grilli.

by cherub_daemon on Feb 19, 2010 1:34 PM EST reply actions  

I like that idea.

Leyland tried that with Galarraga

by linuxit on Feb 19, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Was the picture ever all that pretty?

Rotation depth is a good thing to have, especially with this bunch. Besides Verlander, we don’t have anyone who has thrown 200+ innings recently.

Bonderman had 71 innings in 2008 and 10 innings in 2009.
Galarraga had 178 in ’08 and 143 innings in ’09.
Scherzer had 56 and 170 innings.
Porcello had 170 innings in 2009.
Robertson had 168 and 49.

I think we’ll need all these guys to eat their share of innings, whether it’s as a starter or coming out of the pen. Not one of these guys will be working deep into games.

We need about 800 innings from all these guys.

by linuxit on Feb 19, 2010 2:09 PM EST reply actions  

This is a breakdown of starting rotation spots using tRA

http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2008/9/23/618821/rotation-slots-in-reality

For those unfamiliar with tRA+, you can probably just substitute ERA+ in these slots, instead.

  1. starter: above 118 tRA+
  2. starter: above 106 tRA+
  3. starter: above 96 tRA +
  4. starter: above 86 tRA+
  5. starter: below 86 tRA+

and the averages based on 07 and 08 data:

  1. STARTERS: 130 tRA+
  2. STARTERS: 112 tRA+
  3. STARTERS: 100 tRA+
  4. STARTERS: 91 tRA+
  5. STARTERS: 76 tRA+

Basically, our back of the rotation is a mess but nearly every other team has the same problem.

by Scottwood on Feb 19, 2010 2:55 PM EST reply actions  

Yup. Ideally you want 5 aces, but that — much like premiere offense from the SS position — is not plausible for everyone.

My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.

Now I write at Bless You Boys.

Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.

by Mike Rogers on Feb 19, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

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