From Buster Olney at ESPN.com
by trross1200 on Feb 2, 2010 12:03 AM EST
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PrintSomeone needs to share this with Gerald Laird and Alex Avila immediately:
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4876369&name=olney_buster
The Art of Catching
From Brent Mayne, more on pushing the pace of work:
"This is about the third 'Tip of the Week' where I harp on catchers to push the pace of the game. Am I crazy? Probably, but that's beside the point. Here's a question for you. From 2003 to 2009, can you guess who the five quickest working pitchers were? Just five schleprocks named Greg Maddux, Mark Buehrle, Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt, and Jake Peavy. I might be crazy, but I'll take that starting staff.
"Once again, let me reiterate that working quickly works. And I think it's important to understand and teach that the catcher (as much as anyone) is responsible for this facet of the game. How quickly you catch the pitch, get it back to the pitcher, and put another sign down will dictate how quickly a game moves. Here are the simple facts: Pitchers who work quickly are more effective. The defensive players behind a fast-working pitcher are more consistent. Hitters facing a quick pitcher are less effective. Girlfriends of pitchers who pitch quickly are happier. Short games are a thing of beauty.
"White Sox pitching coach Don Cooper on Mark Buehrle's pitching style: 'He sets the pace; he's attacking. He doesn't give the hitters time to think and regroup. He may get away with not making some pitches because he's on the attack.'
"Here's another fascinating thing about Buehrle's approach: he'll go through entire games without shaking off his catcher. 'Sometimes I don't pay attention to what a hitters' tendencies are ... my catchers see their tendencies, so I just go with what they say,' Buehrle said. Mark wisely understands that execution and location are far more important than the right pitch.
"From a hitter's perspective, here's what Darin Erstad has to say. 'You hate it. You're trying to be slow and calm in the box, and it feels like he's already let go of the ball.'
"I'll finish with this Greg Maddux quote on why he loved working with catcher Eddie Perez: 'Eddie got the ball back to me in exactly two seconds after every pitch. That allowed me to work at whatever pace I wanted.'"
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.
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I think it's more important that they work at the pace they feel comfortable at
Artificially increasing pitching speeds could completely throw some pitchers off.
Okay, but...
… Greg Maddux, Mark Buehrle, Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt, Jake Peavy, and Justin Verlander would probably disagree with you.
"their own pace"?
You could justify almost any bad habit in sports that way. For example, why “artificially” force Clete Thomas to shorten his swing?
Just because something is comfortable doesn’t mean it’s right. If one way is better, then develop it. This is anecdotal evidence, but I find it pretty persuasive.
Timing v. Pace
There is some confusion going on with this thread regarding the difference between the two. The actual post is about pace. Pace is getting the ball from the catcher, getting the sign from the catcher, and starting the windup. Pace does not involve the windup directly. What a quick pace does is force the batter back into the batters box sooner than normal as well as force the batter to get ready to swing sooner than expected.
Timing on the other hand occurs within the actual pitching motion. Timing is essentially the order of events that must occur for a good pitch to happen (breaking hands when forward motion begins, hip rotation before shoulder rotation…). If timing is off than location, velocity, and movement of the pitch can be affected.
It can be argued that quick timing can affect pace but I see them as two separate events for two reasons.
A) Most windups, starting with the leg kick and ending with the throwing of the ball, occur within a couple of seconds. This is a small enough time frame that it is essentially negligible to pace.
B) Hitters are usually set to swing by the time they see that leg kick up making anything that occurs after that motion irrelevant to pace.
So a quick pace is something a pitcher can learn and not risk affecting mechanics. When it comes to timing I’d rather see a pitcher work slow and comfortable than fast and uncomfortable.
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Agree with our last paragraph...
But I think the position of a few of us here is that maybe this can be a learning point for both pitchers AND catchers in the Tiger’s minor league system so that it can be incorporated into their development and eventually work to the point where it becomes natural for them all.
Is anyone arguing that most MLB batters are comfortable with a pitcher that works at a faster pace? I think the majority would like to work somewhere in the middle, where the pitcher isn’t too fast or too slow.
If it doesn’t work though, it doesn’t work. Yes, eventually a pitcher needs to be comfortable with the pace. But if this is a learning point through the minor league system, maybe Pitcher X can be comfortable with 10 seconds between pitches instead of 12.
The other point that hasn’t been covered as far as I can see is how this is all dependent on whether the catcher is calling the game, or if he has to look towards the dugout in order to be told what pitch to call for.
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that's a good point about the catcher...
so really we’ve worked pace down to a few factors.
1) How quickly the ball is returned to the pitcher.
2) How quickly the catcher can get down a sign.
3) Whether or not the pitcher shrugs off the catchers sign.
Basically pace falls entirely on the catcher and his game calling skills. If a catcher can’t think for himself than pace is slowed and if the catcher isn’t on the same page as the pitcher pace is slowed as well.
Most interesting discussion.
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I’m sure all of those pitchers would say that their talents in throwing a baseball far outweigh the pace with which they work.
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I don't know
Intuitively, there’s something said for working fast. It allows the batter less time to adjust to different pitches- it might disrupt his timing.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
But how many pitchers work fast? And isn’t there something to be said for being Steve Trachsel like in that you’re making the batter wait a long, long time while they’re in their stance (like making a ton of audibles at the line is said to be hated by offensive lineman in football)?
I think it’s a pretty minute part of pitching, in my opinion. I’d rather a guy work fast if that’s what he’s comfortable doing. If he’s not, I see no reason to speed up his time in between pitches just to throw off the hitter.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
the biggest advantage of pace comes within the mechanics themself...
like I stated below. That more or less refers to timing however. Quick timing = less time to screw up.
If I had to choose a guy who did a real good job of keeping batters off balance with the actual pace it would be Armando Galarraga. He’s a guy who will vary the time it takes him to go into his windup. He’ll sometimes go right when he gets the signal, other times he’ll wait. Mixing it up is his way of keeping hitters on their toes and is probably one of his more effective pitching weapons.
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We’re talking two different things, I think. I want a quick tempo through someone’s delivery — the first step to throwing hard is throwing with the intent of throwing hard (if that makes sense). What I’m talking about is working at a break-neck pace in terms of get the ball over the plate, get it back, get on the mound and throw immediately rather than taking one’s time between pitches.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
Pay no mind to the post above. It’s late and I’m out of it.
I still don’t think it makes that much of a difference at all whether a pitcher works fast or works slow or varies.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
It seems like this is worth a study at the very least.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
A study?
I’ll ask the gov’t for a grant, and take the year off traveling to various ballparks to watch baseball. More to follow.
government cares about whether players use steroids or not...
maybe they’ll care about this.
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This will take more of an argument to convince me.
My guess is that a catcher that work quickly has more of an indirect effect on the pitcher than a direct one by giving the batter less time to set up.
The fact remains though that pitchers who work quickly are generally more successful than those who don’t. The pace does more than keep fielders on their toes and hitters off balance. A quick pace (within the motion) leaves less time for mechanical error when pitching. Basically think of it like this, the slower you go the more time you have to screw up.
@Trysdor: I agree, while pitching at a higher pace generally leads to success, the comfort of the pitcher is more important.
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just ignore my first sentence
and subject. All that was pretty much said in the original post.
my attention span is fading.
My Music: Now on last.fm!!
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
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