Afternoon prowl: Reaction to the Nate Robertson trade
by BigAl on Mar 30, 2010 4:20 PM EDT
in Detroit Tigers News
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PrintWith Kurt waiting for his emotions to simmer down before he posts (Trust me on this. Here's Kurt's words about his feelings at the moment over today's events in a short email, "it's complete disgust"), let's see what the rest of the baseball world has to say about Nate Robertson being sent to the Marlins, and Dontrelle Willis' elevation to the starting rotation.
John Lowe at the Free Press has the reasoning behind the trade from Dave Dombrowski, along with thoughts on everyone involved:
On the trade: "We knew we had to make a decision as far as the starting rotation. We’ve had three guys battling for two spots, and even though we were prepared to put one of them into the bullpen if we needed to, we felt it would be better if (the pitcher that didn’t make the rotation) went out and pitched.
"All three of them continued to throw the ball well, and clubs were watching."
Rogo from the aptly named DesigNate Robertson has mixed emotions about his blog's namesake leaving Detroit:
In other words, he sucked. And he is namesake of this blog due to being so terrible, yet almost universally loved by Tiger fans along with Brandon Inge and Clete Thomas.
However, Robertson was capable of eating innings and at times showed signs of being a decent middle-of-the-rotation starter. Nate was always described as a great guy off and on the field.
John at Tiger Geist makes arguments for the trade:
Bonderman is the only pitcher who has a chance at being with Detroit in 2011; so he wasn’t going to be traded. I felt he could have been decent in the bullpen while the team figures out whether or not Robertson or Willis could actually pitch. Detroit probably feels that Eddie Bonine is better in this role.
Samara at Roar of the Tigers looks back at Robertson's career (and facial hair) with the Tigers:
Nate Robertson has been traded to the Marlins. Pretty sure this means Bondo and Dontrelle are in the rotation. PAWS PRESERVE US.
Nate has given us plenty to remember him by: Gum Time, the Pitching Goggles of Great Majesty, a certain tendency to overfeed gophers, the many varieties of facial hair, etc. He’s been with the Tigers since 2003 and I am sure there will be some Tigers fan, somewhere, who will deeply miss him.
More reactions, after the jump...
Mike at The Daily Fungo says the trade makes sense...looked at in a certain way:
Bottom line? The Tigers were going to get bubkus in a trade for Dontrelle Willis so they moved the most marketable major-league pitcher they had. In that regard, this trade makes sense.
Of course, now the question is: Will the 2010 model of the D-Train be a local or an express?
At ESPN, Rob Neyer doesn't think Willis is going to amount to much, and says Voss' upside is as a LOOGY...in 2-3 years (as if the Tigers don't have enough of them...):
What's a little odd is that Robertson's outpitched Willis this spring, at least statistically. In 20 innings, Robertson's struck out 19 and walked seven. In 15 innings, Willis has struck out 10 and walked eight (both of them have plunked two hitters).
I certainly wouldn't suggest those numbers are particularly meaningful. But considering Willis' recent history, you'd like to see a little more progress in the walks column.
So I suspect that Bonine (and eventually Armando Galarraga) will get more than a dozen starts this season.
At Mlive, Rob Otto calls the deal a smart move:
Bonderman has been solid enough to lock up one spot, and with Willis showing signs that he can be a decent option in the final spot, there was no room for Big Nate.
Beyond the Boxscore gives the Marlins POV, saying they may have found themselves a good reliever in Robertson. Hmmmm...
But today, I think that the Marlins may have landed their next quality short-term relief option in former Tigers left-hander Nate Robertson, assuming that the Tigers are covering the vast majority of Robertson's 2010 salary. Robertson started off his career in Florida and was dealt to Detroit in the 2003 Mark Redman deal, and his solid work earned him a three-year contract extension after the 2007 season. In his first two seasons since signing the extension, he's posted a 6.14 ERA in 218 innings, with a poor 1.59 strikeout-to-walk ratio.
But Robertson has continued to do one thing well throughout his career, and that's dominate left-handed hitters. Robertson has faced over 1,100 lefties in his career, posting a 3.34 FIP and 3.49 xFIP against them, compared to 5.21 and 4.72 marks against righties, respectively. Against left-handers, he misses more bats, walks less guys, and induces more groundballs, making for a significantly better pitcher all-around.
Expect Kurt to chime in late in the day. I'm as curious as you are to read what he has to say!
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Quick take
Three bad options now down to two bad 4 and 5 pitchers. I laugh at all those who jump to Robertson’s defense now that he’s gone when before they couldn’t wait to get rid of him. In the end, both spots in the rotation will probably see a bunch of different pitchers this year.
I root for the Tigers, Pistons, Red Wings and yes, the Lions.
Me in 140 characters
I have been on the Robertson In The Rotation bandwagon all off-season.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
I've been driving.
You’ve been riding shotgun.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
and it's my car you're both in
wait, I gave a college kid my keys?
by Kurt Mensching on Mar 30, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm gonna run over DD with it
Hope you don’t mind.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Can I have a window seat?
I want to watch it happen while being a part of it.
In a long distance relationship with the Tigers--and, yes, we're doing fine.
Sure
Keep in mind, I drive like a woman.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I consider myself a good driver
so i won’t take offense to that.
In a long distance relationship with the Tigers--and, yes, we're doing fine.
And we just dealt away one of those other pitchers.
Complete and total horseshit.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
If Willis Can regain some confidence....
…..he has also been an innings eater…..i think hes had 3 season with over 198 innings pitched.
by BennieBladesFan on Mar 30, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
And exactly
57.2 in the AL in 2 years.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
Yup....
….thats why I said if he is healthy from his injury he got in his 2nd start in detroit and pitching with a healthy body and mind he may be able to get back to near those numbers.
by BennieBladesFan on Mar 30, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
It wasn’t just injuries. He couldn’t stop walking people in florida, either. 306 K’s and 170 BB’s (1.8 K:BB ratio) in 428.2 IP. He doesn’t get enough ground balls when healthy to offset the lack of K’s he gets.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
Nate And Dontrelle Career Whips and the winner is......
……..Dontrelle…..Isnt that the most important stat?……Nate 1.467 Dontrelle 1.396
by BennieBladesFan on Mar 30, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, that’s not the most important stat, but you’re including a two year start to Willis career that is trumped by the remaining 5 years that obviously is closer to the pitcher that he is. Even if you include his great 2005, his WHIP is 1.427. 06-09 it is 1.569.
Robertson on the other hand from 05-09 is 1.459 and 06-09 is 1.492.
WHIP still takes into account luck/defense (in terms of hits falling/not falling based on randomness and the quality of the defense behind you).
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
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Ok....
….I think its the most important stat to look at for starters….But hey thats just me.
by BennieBladesFan on Mar 30, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is fine. No harm in disagreeing!
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
CAREER Whips?
No, that’s not the most important statistic. It’s skewed by Willis’ first few years in Florida. The fact of the matter is, Dontrelle is not that pitcher anymore.
Don't know what happened there...
As I was saying:
I don’t see why dealing away one of a half-dozen AAAA arms matters that much. Robertson is not now and has never been (but for 2006) anything to write home about.
The best case scenario for this season has always been Bondo finds his form and holds down the #4 spot, and the 5 doesn’t kill us. And anyway, the real issue with the rotation is Porcello’s sophomore season and Scherzer being at least 90% as good as advertised. Those are bigger question marks than we think, at least as far as I can tell.
by crwi on Mar 30, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
We’re foaming at the mouth about who is/isn’t the fifth starter on a team that is probably a year or two away. To think this makes or breaks the season is laughable. They’re are questions all over the pitching staff that probably can’t be solved until some of the prospects come up.
Also, I agree on the Schezer and Porcello issues. Do we really know what we’re getting from those two?
I root for the Tigers, Pistons, Red Wings and yes, the Lions.
Me in 140 characters
Dontrelle is my boy.....
……so you all know how I feel…..I just think that nate was the only guy that would get us a guy in return if we made the trade so thats why they made the deal.
by BennieBladesFan on Mar 30, 2010 4:42 PM EDT reply actions
Hanging, firing squad, or electrocution...
you’re still dead…
by dakine2004 on Mar 30, 2010 4:47 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I Love
That now that he is gone everyone acts like Robertson was an allstar, or even a productive member of the rotation. Willis isn’t a good option, but neither was Robertson, stop being so overdramatic.
by rif23 on Mar 30, 2010 4:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I will agree with that....
….both guys are pribably average at best….So lets root on the D Train.
by BennieBladesFan on Mar 30, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Robertson’s a better option that Willis, no?
No one’s campaigning Robertson for the hall here, this is about the decision making process of the front office. At least, to me it is.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
by Mike Rogers on Mar 30, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think anyone knows who is the better option neither of them has pitched worth a bent you-know-what for a long time. Neither of them really blew anyones socks off this spring either. Anyones guess is as good as mine as to who is going to be better this season, but for anyone to claim they “know” one way or another is silly.
Nate's periphreals are better
D-Train still has the yips. Imma go with Mike not being silly.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Just in general.
Take a look at 2008 even:
2006: 137-67 K-BB, .278 BABIP
2007: 119-63 K-BB, .312 BABIP
2008: 108-62 K-BB, .343 BABIP
Lifetime, he’s at .307 BABIP. His K rate, while deteriorating, is still passable for an innings eater in the 4 or 5 holes. His injury most likely messed with that K-BB ratio and led to him being hittable (you know, if the giant BABIP didn’t). He’s a better pitcher than D-Train today, and will be this year, barring a miracle.
Start praying.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont disagree that Nate has been marginally better, but maginally better than Willis is still pretty bad and at least we could get some return for Robertson. I don’t expect Willis and I wouldn’t have expected Nate to make more than 10-15 starts. Bottom line this isn’t something to start getting the pitchforks out (or threatening to commit vehicular manslaughter) about
Marginally?
Willis can’t stay on the mound to throw strikes.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
we essentially got nothing in return...
we ate basically all of his salary and got LH reliever in return.
Yeah, we don’t have any left handed pitchers.
My Music: Some Sorta Giant
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Another thing I would point to
is his insistence on pitching inside even as his fastball velocity dropped. He finally stopped doing that when he came back as a solid starter down the stretch last season.
by StringTheory on Mar 30, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Nate’s been better every year since Dontrelle came into the Tigers organization, including this spring which had some sort of bearing on the decision (no way does Willis get this job if he has, say, a 6.00 ERA and the same K/BB numbers).
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
Inge
Over the last 4 years in which Inge has played over 120 games he has averaged 21 HRs and 78 RBI’s year to go along with an above average glove at 3rd.
Sure he strikes out a lot but it is not like the Tiges are looking for him for be a 30 – 100 guy.
Personally if he can play 140 games this year and deliver a 20 – 80 along with his above average fielding at 3rd I will be more than happy with his performance.
I never expect much from Inge offensvily.....
….he seems to get a bye with the fans for being a .230 .240 hitter with some pop……Its his glove that we need.
by BennieBladesFan on Mar 30, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
We’re all tantalized by the Alex Rodriguezes and such out there, the superhuman third basemen with gaudy numbers and so on. Hell, our perception of what shortstops should hit like were thrown off by Cal Ripken in the ‘80s (and later A-Rod before he switched positions)… so our third baseman doesn’t hit .320 with 45 HR year after year. Whose really does other than the Yankees and maybe a couple of others, anyway? If he holds his own and is above-average defensively, that’s good enough for me.
by frisbeepilot on Mar 30, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I expected it
Prior to today I would’ve been for Willis and Bonderman. Then Willis had a not good outing today. Still I will own it and stick with it and say they made the right choice.
Opposite side says that if they got most trade action from Robertson they probably traded the best regarded pitcher of the bunch.
That’s what bad decision and big contracts leave you is situations like this.
just sneaking a peak at this on my phone at work
Sorry if this has been answered, but are the Tigers eating Nate’s contract as well?
by rock n rye on Mar 30, 2010 5:07 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Florida only pays the league minimum for Robertson.
by StringTheory on Mar 30, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
So What!!
Goodbye Nate! Teams concerned with $$$ end up in last place!
by Marcmargolis on Mar 30, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
So we're paying 9.6mm
For him not to play for us.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
would rather give nate to try
instead of waiting for Dontrelle to fail
Welcome to Detroit, NO sissies allowed
On the flipside, we're not playing him to beat us either
We don’t play the Marlins this year.
by SabreRoseTiger on Mar 30, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I Wish They Would HAve Traded Him To The TWINS!!
Nate is awful!
by Marcmargolis on Mar 30, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
If you don't think this trade was financially motivated on the Tigers end...
You’re fooling yourself.
that's one heck of a way to save 400k
by Kurt Mensching on Mar 30, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
This
Kurt, you still fuming?
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
yes
and it’s not fuming over Robertson. It’s fuming over the guy in charge making the same forms of decisions repeatedly and having them fail every time.
by Kurt Mensching on Mar 30, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
He's a good GM
He just sucks when it comes to extending players.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
decisions that have gotten him to the playoffs 0 times since 2006
despite the highest payroll in the division and one of the highest in the MLB
by Kurt Mensching on Mar 30, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
way to miss what I said
and try to minimize it with a straw man argument.
They spent $140 million to finish last in a weak division, too. They’ve managed to continue spending upwards of $120m to barely get above 80 games and watch other teams win the division.
by Kurt Mensching on Mar 30, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this is a hangover from his Marlin days
Couldn’t extend anyone there, so now he has to keep everyone here. At least, that’s what I hope it is.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t miss what you said I just think the we spend more money so we should be in the playoffs every year argument is way too Yankee for my taste.
so you just purposely tried to twist what I said?
constructive.
by Kurt Mensching on Mar 30, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I assure you i didn’t twist anything purposely. I am sorry that you feel that way. I don’t even think I created a straw man, if you want to get technical. That said I disagree with you in that I think DD is a good, if not very good GM. You obviously feel differently and you are entitled to your own opinion.
Maybe I'm wrong...
(And I probably am) But isn’t Robertson the cheapest one to get rid of? Cutting Bonderman or Willis would have cost them more, right?
Don't cut any of them?
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough.
I certainly would have preferred that. But if they wanted the roster spot, isn’t Nate the cheapest option to rid themselves of?
No
Thomas is pretty f*cking cheap.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
and just why do they need that roster spot so importantly right now?
by Kurt Mensching on Mar 30, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
We must get Eddie Bonine on the roster!!!
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
he's already there
this puts them at 39.
by Kurt Mensching on Mar 30, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Just purely salary wise, you're right.
Nate makes 10, while Bonderman and Willis make 12.5 and 12, respectively.
by StringTheory on Mar 30, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
By the time you replace Nate with Bonine
paying Eddie the minimum $ 400K, that savings is gone.
And Voss gets a minor league salary to replace Bonine’s minor league salary.
No savings at all in this deal.
What also bothers me is that we had no rush to make this trade today.
This decision was made while both Robertson and Willis had the chance to make two more spring starts. The fact is, all we have to go on at this point is spring training stats, and while they do not reflect how each will be during the regular season, it can at least show who has the ability to throw the damn baseball over the plate.
Gallaraga is Fifth Starter if Dontrelle Flames Out
Who cares about the fifth starter if Verlander, Porcello, Scherzer, and Bonderman have good seasons! If the Tigers get eight wins out of the fifth spot and the others play as advertised the Tigers win the division.
That's a lot of if's
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
3
Porcello, Scherzer and Bonderman.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Hell yes
Porcello has a sophomore slump, Scherzer has the shift to the AL and health issues. Bondo is a zombie.
Nate had questions too, but 4 pitchers with questions is better than 3.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I was just counting the word "if"
:)
In a long distance relationship with the Tigers--and, yes, we're doing fine.
I don't think Mando gets it...
probably Bonine.
My Music: Some Sorta Giant
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
I am so upset right now.
Literally have fought off tears three times now. Way to kill my baseball buzz, powers that be.
In a long distance relationship with the Tigers--and, yes, we're doing fine.
Nate Robertson is a HOF Candidate?
Maybe he will be in the HOF next to a long HR ball!
When Willis flames out
And it is When, not if
there are three or four in house options that can fill in just as well as Nate would have
I guess it pisses me of cuz
All three could co-exsist. Put both Willis and Robertson in the rotation and let Bonderman pitch long relief. I guarentee in due time one of the three would pitch there way off the roster. If not than great.
The move saved a whopping $500k. Just release Thomas, he wasn’t that impressive to me anyways!
For the first time in a long time we had depth at starting pitching. With Bonine, Miner and even (long shot) Galarraga as insurance policies. You also put a ton of pressure on Bondo and Willis now.
It’s not that I’m a BIG Robertson fan, he was the lesser of the evils though.
by JAYRC on Mar 30, 2010 5:39 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
This
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
A comment thread had to be deleted
and a reminder “shut the hell up” is never acceptable and you only get one warning.
Not much there...
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Not much at all. I did manage to tease out some tendencies from the stats at hand. Above-average GB guy, but that might be more due to the level he’s at, who knows.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
Yikes, settle down, everyone
Take a deep breath. I think this is getting blown out of proportion just a little bit. It’s not like we traded Justin Verlander for a bag of baseballs (while taking on his entire contract). Nate is not going to win the Cy Young. He is not going to the Hall of Fame. He would have been a free agent anyways at the end of this year. The team’s long-term fortunes have not been sacrificed. Would he have made a better 5th starter than Willis? Probably. Is it a bad trade, considering we’re up to our eyeballs in lefty relievers? Probably. But in my estimation, it’s not worth the energy to get worked up over. If the season comes down to needing Nate Robertson, well, we probably don’t deserve to win the division with him, either.
by SabreRoseTiger on Mar 30, 2010 6:07 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
He may solidify the back of our rotation enough to help us win the Central.
So I think the anger is partially understandable.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I think much of the mood is set because DD didn't seem to get anything for Robertson.
Another reliever, of which we have many, and paying Nate’s salary. We could have at least asked for Andrew Miller back… tee-hee.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
Bingo.
Generally when you pay all of the salary, you get a better return. Call me naive, but if Robertson is worth just a LH reliever in Double-A if cost is no option than I don’t know anything about anything.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
It's better than just a straight up release
I’m honestly surprised we found a team that would give up ANYONE for him, let alone a lefty reliever. Can’t ever have enough left relievers in your system. Plus cutting ties with Sheff worked out just fine in my book. This is basically a release with something in return
I really doubt the Marlins were the first or only team DD called.
We heard about these trade rumors several days ago. I’m sure the offers just weren’t there.
People who are angry need to calm down
Look- They felt Dontrelle pitched well enough to give him that last spot. He’s going to be on the shortest leash we’ve ever seen though. It isn’t like they’re going to let him go out there and mess around for 3 months. 3 starts and if he looks horrendous Bonine just takes over the 5th spot. MAYBE he comes through, pitches somewhat decently, and becomes a nice little comeback story. If he doesn’t? There’s no guarantee Nate would have stepped in and done any better.
I’m just saying if Dontrelle doesn’t pan out, it isn’t like they’ll let it go on for an entire season. In all honesty I’d rather give Bonine a shot over Nate anyways.
I also think it was kind of a nice gesture on our part to deal Nate to a team who really wanted him and would use him as a starter. Instead of making the guy suffer in the bullpen they moved him to somewhere that he could have a good shot at making a comeback of his own.
Well, we won’t know if Nate could pitch better than a failing Willis or Bonine since we didn’t give him the chance when he’s back healthy. Who do we turn to after willis fails and when Bonine shows he’s a swingman at best in the majors? Galarraga? I think the verdicts in on his talents for the most part.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
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Possibly
Who knows man. Galarraga got sent down to figure his stuff out. Maybe he does? Maybe someone else in the system shows that they can be capable of coming up and holding it down for awhile. Even a mid-season acquisition, there are a number of possibilities that make this not as big of a deal as I’m seeing right now
Mid-season acquisitions haven’t really worked out at all for the Tigers under Dombrowski (can’t think of a good one. Then again, we haven’t been good that long to be making the acquisition rather than trading away talent).
Again, though, for me it’s the processes behind the move rather than the move itself for me.
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I was going to say him.
His homer is still one of the most beautiful images in my mind.
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You just never know
Washburn last year was just ridiculous. None of us or Dombrowski for that matter could have witnessed that coming. It doesn’t exactly have to be a trade either… you see these older guys who wait it out and then sign on with a team come mid-summer. Maybe that has to happen, who knows. I’m just trying to get at that dealing Nate isn’t the be all end all, and I’d be a little bit scared if we really had to rely on Nate Robertson that badly anyways
I did.
I didn’t like the Washburn deal when it happened at all (though, he was unluckily bad, as well).
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I saw it coming.
Watching Washburn on the Angels and the Mariners for years made me want no part of his shiny ERA.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
All this over Nate Robertson?
Any respect I had for the writers at BYB has been thrown out Kurt’s car window. Fact is Nate was as valuable as a AA Loogy named Koss. Get over it.
You guys need to redeem yourselves somehow. Good luck with that.
Thanks!
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when a longstanding member of the team is traded
people get emotional. it’s not like he was someone we got last year or anything. he had been with the tigers for over half a decade, so losing him, even to a trade like this, is hurtful.
I Like Pie
by mrsunshine on Mar 30, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You are absolutely correct
I apologize for being an ass.
I can't be the only one who finds it hilarious that people seem more upset about this
then they were about the loss of Placido Polanco, Curtis Granderson, or Fernando Rodney. All players who produced at a very high level for us. Nate’s value over any dime a dozen lefty is somewhere between minimal and non-existent. I honestly think Eddie Bonine could produce at a higher level Nate would have.
People were up in arms about Granderson and sad about Polly.
Rodney sucks and will always suck. I’m glad he’s gone.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
not offering arby to Polly pissed me off
losing Lyon and Rodney was awesome
at least we got a good return for grandy n e-jax
by JAYRC on Mar 30, 2010 6:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
At least we got stuff for Granderson
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Thats pretty ridiculous
And hopefully not serious… of course you’ll get a return on an All-Star CF in the prime of his career. A past his prime years, sometimes hurt, often ineffective starter isn’t exactly a hot commodity that people want to part with young talent for
I understand that
Perhaps that is why I was against trading robertson (even if he is mediocre at best) for yet another lefty reliever.
Seriously don’t we have enough prospect bullpen talent yet?
I mean damn, Weinhardt Satterwhite Schlereth Rainwater on and on and on
by JAYRC on Mar 30, 2010 6:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Cant ever have enough young talent
Especially in the pen… and especially when all of those guys might not pan out. Or maybe he’s expendable in another trade down the line.
Yes we can
We have prospects literally overflowing our AAA bullpen (when I get around to the depth charts again, I’ll show you- they’re coming). At some point you have to consider the health of the rest of the organization.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
were you around when those players left?
there was a sizeable uproar. For polanco and rodney, most people knew they were leaving anyways after the season. Granderson will still have a lot of tigers fans for his class and his glove, but we got a lot of promising players in that deal.
The Robertson trade is pretty sudden and towards the end of spring training, not the beginning of the offseason. people are going to get a little emotional now that the baseball blood is flowing again.
I Like Pie
You guys sure put a lot more faith in Voss as LH reliever in Double-A.
Or, just are letting bad, hurt Nate influence your thought process. When healthy, he’s posted a bit below-average FIP’s — more than passable in the 5 spot/bullpen.
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This
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Was it a good trade? No.
Was it necessary? Probably not.
Will it ultimately make one iota of difference in the Tigers’ end result? I really doubt it.
Should we be this upset about a fringe starter? Absolutely not.
If you’re all this broken up about a middling lefty, I have good news.
Jarrod Washburn is still available!
I just vomitted when I heard the name washburn
by JAYRC on Mar 30, 2010 6:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the scariest part is that Dombrowski could be licking his chops at that!
by Kurt Mensching on Mar 30, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd take him
For $500,000 plus incentives.
"[M]aybe he’s hoping we’re distracting each other while he elopes with pie. I’m on to you Kurt."- madpoopz
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
by David Tokarz on Mar 30, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't
I’d rather put all the names in the Mudhen rotation in a hat and pick one
or get John Smoltz, or Pedro, or let Everett pitch, since he can’t hit
Be realistic here
For as bad as he was here, the guy was LIGHTS OUT in the first half of the year. We all hate him for what we saw of him, but he absolutely dominated us when he was pitching for the M’s. That 7+ ERA he logged in Detroit is not reflective on what type of pitcher he is
Actually it is pretty indicative of what he was
His peripherals were a combo of luck, home ballpark, and the Mariners phenomenal defense. Jarrod Washburn was definitely going to trend downward when the Tigers got him, DD was probably hoping it wouldn’t be that severe though.
by ozymandius1024 on Mar 30, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree
Yeah he over performed in the first half, but there isn’t any way he is as bad of a pitcher as what we saw. Yeah he’s not an ace or anything but he’s always kind of been a solid 4-5 guy.
He isn't as bad as we saw
But, that doesn’t mean he’s good, either.
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I really think that's overrating him
His BAbip was 50 points lower than his career levels in Seattle last year, and he was leaving 75% on base (compared to 68-70%). He’s more like someone like Armando Galarraga than a solid 4-5 guy. Let’s get totally excited about that FIP (or xFIP, if that’s your cup of tea) around 5 annually.
He’s got name value from his days with the Angels. That’s about it.
by ozymandius1024 on Mar 30, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
No, sorry
I refuse to agree with that. You’re basing that solely on what you saw from Washburn last year
I'm not.
Washburn is a 4th or 5th starter at best. I’d rather use in house options than signing Mr. Dolphin.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
Im not wanting to sign him
Don’t take my argument as me wanting him on this team. I’m ready to use in house options as well
His performance in Detroit is worse than he was.
But he was never that good to begin with, so his first half numbers were smoke and mirrors. Washburn was never good, just serviceable.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
Most importantly, we got to control where Nate Robertson went
Had we released him, he could be pitching for KC or Cleveland or another rival. Getting him to Florida was the best case scenario for where ended up.
Truly the trade had to happen. The Tigers don’t need another lefty in the pen, whether it be Nate or Dontrelle.
But it didn’t have to happen at all. If Dontrelle fails, he probably just sits in the bullpen anyways like Nate would’ve. And if he fails you just eat the deal and release him. I’d rather give both the shot than just decide one isn’t good enough already and ship him out of town.
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The Tigers Need To Make One More Move....
Fire Lloyd McClendon, Lloyd is the worst hitting coach in MLB. Chuck Hernandez was awful and after the Tigers got rid of Chuck the pitching staff looked much better last year under Rick Knapp! If they Fire Lloyd and hire someone who knows how to hit to all FIELDS!!
Reading this thread I get a few things out of it....
First being that this was a bad move. Why get rid of a guy that’s been pitching pretty good so far this soon for essentially nothing while eating all but 400K of his salary? Really you could just cut some other guy off the roster., keep a decent pitcher, and more importantly keep some competition for those rotation spots. Give one of the 3 of them the chance to pitch themselves off the roster. If no one does, than we win right?
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By whatever criteria they were using
He didn’t make the rotation, and they clearly didn’t want him in the pen.
you prove my point...
this trade is that dumb. You don’t just condemn a guy who is pitching well, let alone trade him for basically nothing.
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Heres why i like the trade
The reason i like this trade is if Willis pitches horribly after say the first month send him to the bullpen and start Coke or Ni.Or could we see Crosby this year instead of next year.And really as a 5th starter if he goes out and pitches say 5 innings our pen wil lbe fresh because of Verlander Porcello Scherzer and possibly Bondo going 6-7 innings per night and if you look at it the 5th starter could possibly get skipped 8- 10 games this year with rain outs and off days so having Willis as the 5th starter is not really that bad.And if JL puts a solid defense around him it could be a great thing.And has Laird ever caught Willis.If he has not how much of a impact could Laird have on Willis.
If Dontrelle implodes (again)...
it’s probably gonna be Bonine getting the starts.
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