Bullpen management invites debate, or does it? Mariners 5, Tigers 4
by Kurt Mensching on May 26, 2010 10:22 PM EDT
in Detroit Tigers News
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I'm guessing there's going to be some second-guessing going on for this game.
The Tigers led 4-1 entering the bottom of the eighth inning. Jeremy Bonderman, with 93 pitches, six strikeouts and five hits allowed under his belt, looked like he was set to go back into the game.
Instead, Jim Leyland made the signal to the bullpen to call on Ryan Perry.
You saw the rest, or have at least heard about it by now. Perry gave up five hits, including four in a row. One was a home run to Mike Sweeney. Another was a double to Rob Johnson. Josh Wilson drove in a pair of runs, too.
Two notes should be added before we move on. One, the Mariners are not particularly adept at scoring runs. Maybe that's being kind -- they're last in the American League. Two, the fifth through eighth batters were the ones to beat Perry around.
A classic case of Jim Leyland over-managing, right?
Maybe not.
For me, it comes down to this. The Tigers' bullpen had an ERA of 2.33 entering the game. Perry had allowed just three base runners across his past five appearances. Jose Valverde's ninth-inning numbers are so blindingly good they barely need mention. Detroit was 19-0 when leading after seven innings.
If you were Leyland, would you leave Bonderman out there in the eighth inning, or would you hand the game over to a near-automatic bullpen?
Me, I give it to the bullpen.
It didn't work out. That happens. It probably won't happen often, but it happens.
And it did.
Bullets!
- Unlike Al, I'll use bullet points -- I tease!
- Brennan Boesch is awesome.
- Magglio Ordonez had a single, a double and a home run. Just a triple shy of the cycle.
- Boesch also had two hits and a double. Not a bad day!
- Batting third and playing first base, Ryan Raburn went 1-for-5. I do not quite have the same faith in him as some of my co-authors on the site, I must admit.
- Perry's ERA went up from 2.41 to 4.26.
- Adam Everett had an RBI-double and got his average up to .203. Impressive, huh?
- The Twins lost two games today. So Detroit is just 1 game out of first place. The starting pitching seems to be righting itself a bit, and Bonderman did well. All good things.
- I'm content with things overall.
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I was fine with bring Perry in.
Leaving him in after the homer, after the single, AFTER THE DOUBLE…not so much.
by rcpratt on May 26, 2010 10:28 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
that's what i wanted to say
but wasn’t quite sure how to word it. Well done.
Welcome to Detroit, NO sissies allowed
by Detroitchik on May 26, 2010 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Completely Agree
My problem with Jim hasn’t been when he puts guys in. More to do with when he doesn’t take them out.
Big question was why leave Perry in?
But ya gotta love what Bondo’s doing.
My Music: Some Sorta Giant
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
i'd need to rewatch the inning
but I think the time between the home run and the double to see for sure if anyone was up in the pen ahead of time, but if not it was probably not enough time to get a pitcher warmed up.
by Kurt Mensching on May 26, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
grammar fair
i’d need to rewatch the inning
to see for sure the time between the home run and the double and if anyone was up in the pen ahead of time. But if not it was probably not enough time to get a pitcher warmed up.
by Kurt Mensching on May 26, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah.
that’s the problem with not being able to see the games.
My Music: Some Sorta Giant
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
Coke and Zumaya were up
8th inning, 3 run lead, new pitcher, he puts a guy on base you automatically need to have a guy or two up. That is another issue I have with Leyland. I don’t know when exactly Zum and Coke began warming up, so a relook at the inning is warranted, but for god sakes Jim L. it’s ok to do things by the book once in a while.
I could not believe this game...
Bonderman pitched an absolute gem and then Perry comes in and blows it all to pieces, makes me sick.
If this was last year, I probably wouldn’t be as mad though, considering this happened every other game, but our bullpen isn’t suppose to be blowing games at all this year.
But they will, because they aren't going to be perfect
They are 19-1 when leading after 7 innings. That’ll extrapolate out to 66-3.
Honestly, if the bullpen only blows 3 games where they are given a late lead and maybe a handful more where they are given a tie, I’ll take it.
It sucks to watch a great game from Bondo get blown (and Perry better be buying him a nice dinner this weekend) but its going to happen. The trick is to limit how many times it happens, and the Tigers relievers have done a great job of doing that this year.
Games like this will happen...
….over the course of a season…I mean how many times have we made other teams SB nation sites blow up like this this year after all of the late inning comebacks we have had….This stuff happens…That being said I didnt get to watch this game and cant say for sure what the feel was going into the the 8th…Did it look like it was a bet your house on it were going to win?…Lets take care of Oakland!!!
by BennieBladesFan on May 26, 2010 10:56 PM EDT reply actions
lamont
There is a time when age does come into play concerning coaches and managers. Being old may be a handicap for a manager, but at least has the benefit of having time to ponder whether to yank a pitcher, put on the hit an run, or other game strategy decisions. BUT, at third base, the coach has only a second or two to make critical decisions. And process a lot of information in that one or two seconds. How good is the outfielder’s arm? How fast is my baserunner? Did he get a good jump? Who is on deck? How critical is the run? Maybe Lamont can’t do this so well. I was just behind him today . The pivotal indicator for a coach is if the outfielder has the ball in his hand before your baserunner hits third, you probably should not wave your arms around windmill fashion. Today, with the ball in Ichiro’s right hand and Raeburn still chugging toward third, Lamont went into his wave. Overwhelmingly predicatable outcome. Out by 10 feet.
.
I'm a big fan of sending the starter back out there...
and then going to the pen if someone gets onboard.
What I don’t know is if Bonderman was happy to come out at 93 pitches, or if Perry prefers to start an inning wit no one onboard.
I would have liked for the Tigers to win one of these two games, and I hope its not indicative of the way that they’ll play against these upcoming “lesser” opponents for the next four weeks or so. With JV, and the new Bondo, and the improving Kid Rick, and the AAA version of Max, I’m feeling better about the starting pitching.
"All aboard!"
Boesch Bandwagon Conductor
Did Zoom pitch yesterday?
Why not bring him in?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
I'd have left Bonderman in the game
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!
Every time you change pitchers, there is a chance that you’re bringing in a guy that won’t be on his game. Ol smokey doesn’t seem to factor this into his pitching changes. Yes, this is overmanaging, folks. No reason whatsoever to pull Bonderman out. Otherwise, why not pull him out an inning earlier? Or two innings?
Leaving Perry in is just par for the course with Leyland. Most fans see things as they are and ask “why”? Leyland dreams things as they should be and says “why not”? He manages for the ideal situation. Every player has his role to play, and, dadgummit, he’s gonna put them in those roles to sink or swim- and he’s gonna stick with em! He won’t panic and yank em out if things start to go sour. They have to be able to work out of trouble. Even if they’re obviously in the process of blowing the game, as every fan can see.
On the bright side, I’m very encouraged with Bonderman. He’s our second best pitcher at the moment, and Porcello seems to be righting the ship, while Scherzer seems to have figured something out in Toledo. This Tiger team will live or die by their rotation, and today’s game is encouraging from that standpoint. I think the bullpen, including Perry, will be fine going forward. With JL’s management style, it needs to be.
There’s no other way to put this. The Tigers have an easy schedule for the next month. Still gotta win em, but we should have Miggy and Guillen back in the lineup.
So, who gets cut? My guess is Worth, but the obvious thing to do is to release Everett.
Agree
Here is a question, if Leyland is quick to pull Bonderman, why doesn’t he use the same philosophy to pull a guy when he obviously doesn’t have it. It makes no sense to me. I think Sparky did a masterful job at working the bullpen. They called him captain hook. 8th inning bring in a guy and he walks him (cardinal sin) and Sparky would yank that guy. Leyland? He lets a guy give up 5 hits and 4 runs (too late) before he pulls him, with 2 other great arms ready in the pen. Unbelievable. Leyland misses on some of the more obvious baseball moves. Sparky once said, managers win or lose 1 run games. Yesterday was on Jim. Some say it’s only one game, no big deal. One game huh? How would that have helped us last year?
Instead of focusing on Perry sucking today
Lets focus on Bondo putting it together.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
Human nature, Mike!
The box score says we got one in the L column tonight, and that’s the bottom line, so it’ll be dwelt upon in the aftermath. If the Tigs had managed to pull it out, the focus would be on how to work an extension for Bonderman. This thing is gonna come down to rotation, rotation, rotation, and from that standpoint, tonight was a good night. So there!
Haha, I know.
I just felt like being positive and I think I love seeing Bondo succeed more than any other Tiger I’ve ever rooted for.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
I find an increase in the L stat quite interesting to be honest.
It’s a good indicator of whether a team is failing or succeeding.
My Music: Some Sorta Giant
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
BONDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I’d post Samara’s “Jeremy Bonderman is better than you” picture, but I can’t find a copy I can embed here.
Either way, Jeremy Bonderman is better than you. And by you I mean everyone.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on May 27, 2010 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm really happy that Bondo appears to be back
If only because it allows me to continue talking about my elevated Bondorphin levels.
by ChrisDTX on May 27, 2010 12:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
At least the Tigers got the #1 Web Gem both days in this series?
Who needs to win games when you have web gems.
The Mariners . . .
. . . are a better team than their record would indicate, what with Gutierrez and Figgins coming into the series each hitting below .200. That’s not going to continue.
Leyland thinks too much
He left Verlander in one inning too long the previous night. So, he doesnt want to make the same mistake again, and takes Bondo out. Blows up on him again. Just doesnt seem to have a good feel of the staff.
or he was unlucky twice
Verlander is quite capable of working through difficulty, even in later innings. And he probably figured that with a pretty fresh bullpen, he’d take Bonderman out after he had performed extremely well, and a decent bullpen should be able to hold the lead as well as they have most of the year. Perry hasn’t made a habit of blowing games – and maybe things spiraled out of control too quickly to get someone else warmed up before the lead was lost. It happens to every team a few times each season.
Perry picked a bad time to have a bad outing, though. Poor Bonderman. :(
"While there's life, there's hope." --Cicero
Science nerd and proud of it!
You're using a couple games out of the season to prove a point....
But history says the exact opposite of what you said. Up to this point in the season Jim Leyland has managed to effectively pull his starters and put in his relievers at the right points and thus has a positive win-loss record to prove it.
But if it’s two games you’re going to focus on lets find the difference, and to me there is one huge difference. Justin Verlander is a legitimate ace, Jeremy Bonderman is not. You trust JV at this point a hell of a lot more than you trust Bondo at this point no matter how consistent Bondo has been. I’m also going to venture out and say that Justin Verlander probably has a few more CG victories than Bondo.
So now add in the generally effective bullpen and you get your well thought out plan.
on another note: I wonder if the Tigers are being a little careful with Bondo’s arm? He’s basically been not pitching for a couple seasons now so I think it’s possible they might be treating him with some kid gloves.
My Music: Some Sorta Giant
My Blog: Strike Three Mechanics
Missed point again
It’s not whether to take out a starter or not, it’s about why on earth a manager would leave in a reliever to give up 5 hits and 4 runs with capable guys warmed up in the pen. Idiotic, and that is being nice.
So on Friday in the 9th, who does he go to, the same guy who struggled the last game. What happens, the guy loads the bases. Oh and guess what, Zumaya is fresh and he brings him in 2 batters too late again.
Very poor managing. He will cost us a chance at a division title once again.
The Tigers seem to have a decent amount of fans whenever I go to Safeco.
Seeing the Perry-Choke in person blew goats though. Especially having to endure Rob Johnson actually hitting a ball.
Oh, and Raburn’s out at the plate in the first was infuriating.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
You missed the point
The point was not whether or not Leyland should give it to the bullpen, it is why in the world would any manager leave a guy in for that long who is getting peppered. It is beyond comprehension to see Perry getting lit up for 5 hits when Zumaya and Coke are ready in the pen. This is remedial managing and Leyland failed. Some say he is a very good to great manager. I believe he does a lot of things very well. Other times he makes me scratch my head. Yesterday was one of those times. It is the simple obvious things where managers cannot afford to make mistakes, and should not miss. Leyland did that yesterday. It is inexcusable in my opinion.
Play your strength
Bringing Perry in was the right move, but when it becomes obvious that he is blowing the game, and you are blessed with the deepest bullpen in the league, you try someone else. Many teams only have one or two safe relievers, but we seem to have five or six. It is the only area where we are the best, so we should take advantage of it.
Pulling Bondo was probably the right call
He’s been doing great, but let’s not forget he hasn’t pitched much over the last two years. With as good as he has been, it’s important to keep him healthy and not ask him to go too deep in games, especially early in the season. Who could have known Perry would be that off?
A lifelong Tigers fan
Meh.
I was all ready to get out the flamethrower to char Perry and Leyland… and then I saw the highlights.
Sweeney gets out a driver, picks the ball low-and-outside off the ground and pulls it over the LF wall.
Wilson gets out a 3-wood, picks the ball low-and-outside off the ground and pulls it into left-center for the go-ahead single.
Really, it’s not like Perry just didn’t have it yesterday. He threw two good pitches and got beat on both of them. I think that’s why we didn’t see much negative reaction out of the clubhouse after the game. Stuff like that happens.
Fangraphs article
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/ryan-perrys-implosion/
Not all that enlightening, but whatever.
I was listenening in the car during said implosion
and didn’t really want to go back and watch once I got home, so thanks for that. I had a feeling it was just a bad day for him. He wouldn’t have been left in there if his stuff was all over the place.
Director of the 2010 Free Casper Wells campaign
No Run Support
FWIW
I have zero problems with how this was handled. What, exactly, has Perry done that would lead you to believe he would give up a 4-spot? Sometimes guys just don’t get it done. The logic was sound, the results weren’t.
by ChrisDTX on May 27, 2010 10:57 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I have to agree
Perry has done a great job so far, as has the rest of the ‘pen. I don’t think this was over-managing at all. I think it’s a case where Leyland wanted to get Bondo out with confidence high and he had a fresh bullpen that is the best in the league. It didn’t work, but it was still the right move to make.
Track record doesn't matter.
After the home run, you yank him. Bringing in Perry is a fine move, but you have to pull him when he takes a dump on the mound.
Even after the HR
He was set up for success against the bottom of a crappy Seattle lineup. Righties, too. He stunk. It happens.
by ChrisDTX on May 27, 2010 11:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
IMO, this loss (or any loss, for that matter) is just exacerbated by the day off.
"All aboard!"
Boesch Bandwagon Conductor
Stupid comment
You don’t let one guy, any guy give up 4 runs in the 8th. After the 2nd or 3rd hit you go to one of your other capable guys who might have it that night. Obviously Perry did not. You guys obviously don’t know baseball.
Outside of the box thought
Joe Torre does this, and so does Larussa at times. When the heart of the order is coming up in the eighth (yesterday, the 3-4-5 batters fro Seattle), why not use your closer for that one inning? If he is your best reliever, shouldn’t he have to face the best hitters?
It's not a bad idea
the closer might bitch about losing a save opportunity. I don’t know why more managers don’t do this.
by handsomerob1 on May 27, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
See
I say our best reliever is Joel Zumaya- and I’d even say there’s a strong argument that the Big Potato is only #3 or #4 on the “best relievers” list. Which is exactly how I want it- Valverde is good enough to shut guys down for an inning at a time, and that’s all you need from a closer.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on May 28, 2010 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions
any way you slice the pie after , perry gives up 2runs should switch pitchers absolutely, bring in either zoom or coke with a one run lead.Remember , last year , 163 between the Twinkies vs Tigers for the central division crown ,we know what happened Tigers lost the game xtra inning 6-5, so, very important to win games whether it is beginning or middle or end of the season. Now let’s say, summits either zoom or valverde coke for perry at least we have lead , good point raising by Detroit4Lyfe, Valverde’ is the closer, rest my case, anyway, tigers shouldnt have lost the game simple as that.
by '' spiderman '' on May 27, 2010 2:54 PM EDT reply actions
WTF!!!!!!!!!.....
Good pitching by Bondo and our hitters did a good enough job with out Cabrera!!..BUT RYAN PERRY! WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!….we lost games when we had a chance to be ahead in AL Central..cuz the Twinkies are F’n UP TOO (excuse my french)….I think Leyland should of taken out perry before the damage was done…
Semir
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