Boesch v. Stanton - Comparing Prospects
Much has been made this year of the influx of shiny new talent in the major leagues this year, and young players
such as Jason Heyward and Stephen Strasburg have been the talk of baseball since April. Other prominent phenoms
have recently joined their parent clubs with nearly as much publicity. Overlooked by most of baseball has been the
rise of the Tiger's rookie Brennan Boesch, who, with little fanfare, was named AL rookie of the Month for May, and
has continued his torrid hitting pace well into June.
Not only has Boesch been largely overlooked, his performance has been scoffed at by the saber-metrics police as an aberration, a nice story, but a guy not considered by the "experts" as a legitimate prospect. Boesch has been
barely noticed by prospect raters, and most consider him at best a mediocre MLB prospect, certainly not a sure
thing future star like Heyward and Florida's Mike Stanton.
Critics note Boesch's age (25) and a number of minor league stats (and the proverbial "hole" in his swing) as
worthy of dismissing him as a potential star. The statistically favorable comparisons to Jason Heyward against
real major league pitching are again dismissed as a good story, but, alas, unsustainable.
Another young star-in-waiting has reached the Major Leagues recently, Florida OF Mike Stanton. Stanton is
considered in the same class as Heyward, a can't-miss prospect with the saber-metrics pedigree to match. But let's
look at the numbers a bit and try to determine what makes a can't-miss prospect, using Stanton and Boesch's
full 2009 AA minor league stats for comparison:
At Bats
Stanton 479
Boesch 527
Runs
Stanton 76
Boesch 89
Hits
Stanton 122
Boesch 145
2b
Stanton 24
Boesch 26
3b
Stanton 5
Boesch 7
HR
Stanton 28
Boesch 28
RBI
Stanton 92
Boesch 93
SB
Stanton 03
Boesch 11
BB
Stanton 59
Boesch 33
SO
Stanton 144
Boesch 127
BA
Stanton .255
Boesch .275
OBP
Stanton .341
Boesch .318
Slugging
Stanton .501
Boesch .510
OPS
Stanton .842
Boesch .828
As you can see, their stats are remarkably similar over the course of a full season against similar levels of
pitching. So, other than the age factor, how do the experts so easily label one player (Stanton) a future star,
and doom the other (Boesch) to mediocrity at best? Are 25 year olds beyond the age of growth as a ballplayer, and
conversely, do 21 year olds always improve? Could it be that Boesch is simply a late bloomer and Stanton is a, er, early-bloomer?
I put together this little piece not as a statistical "gotcha", but as a friendly reminder that rookie ballplayers are just
that--rookies--meaning that they are unproven and untested until they are, well, proven and tested.
Based on what we've seen far, most Tiger fans will happily take the 25 year old kid with the hole in his swing and a flair for the dramatic.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.
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First Fanpost
Be easy on me, guys!
Baseball Geek
by StorminNormanCash on Jun 21, 2010 12:33 AM EDT reply actions
Couple things
1. 25 year olds are at or nearing their peak.
2. Don’t underestimate that 20 point difference in OBP- 20 walks over a season can make a big difference.
3. You can’t ignore the hole in his swing so easily, either.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Erm
#3, contd.
Stanton has problems with K’s, but that doesn’t stem from a mechanical issue, which means he could potentially fix it- therefore he’s hyped. Boesch, after several minor league seasons, probably can’t do much better.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I need some sort of mechanism to prevent you from commenting on Boesch posts
Director of the 2010 Free Casper Wells campaign
No Run Support
I'm sorry
But somebody’s got to be a pessimist.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I just hope you aren't doing your best Cassandra impersonation.
Because if Boesch falls back down to Earth this Tiger’s line-up gets more sketchy than a boardwalk caricature artist.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
I... don't get the reference?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
David's criticisms are valid, within the overall scope and context of prospects/development in general.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
oh I know they are, I'm just giving him shit
Director of the 2010 Free Casper Wells campaign
No Run Support
Thanks
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
You should make fun of his last name more.
Because I think it is slang for drugs.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
Like I haven't heard that one before
Friends, enemies, professors.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't understand
the “hole in swing” analysis on Boesch. Where is this hole? If bloggers know about it, how have major league pitchers and catchers not found it?
I understand the concept of having a hole in your swing, but Boesch has had an extremely successful last 1.5 seasons, and no one outside of the blogosphere seems to have found this giant, gaping, Boeschmobile-drive-through hole.
I need to see opposing batteries start recording many more outs and giving up many less home runs against the young man before I can entertain talk of “holes in the swing”.
A lifelong Tigers fan
The BABIP of close to .400 isn't enough of a clue?
Look, the homers are going to be there- he’s got good power. But the contact rates are not, and when those drop, expect the quantity of homers to as well (though the rate should be the same). Plus you can even see him struggle with inside fastballs- he’ll pop them up or strike out. And he has a tendency to chase low pitches.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
There he goes again
Boesch is 2-2 tonight, another 400+ foot HR and 3 runs scored…how much longer before all you math geeks stop looking at silly SABR numbers and just enjoy the game of baseball. Maybe your mommy will buy you a new pocket protector if your good.
by HonoluluBlueJohn1978 on Jun 22, 2010 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Um, FYI, they are enjoying baseball.
Your comment is not only off base with what sabermetrics is about but also just the kind of demeaning crap folks who analyze baseball through numbers have had to put up with for ages.
You really need to examine your own biases and maybe accept that different people have differing ways of enjoying something.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
I don't enjoy baseball
That’s why I spend hours a week analyzing scouting reports and watching video of players.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 22, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of baseball work
i better get to work on the recaps and Andy Oliver profile.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 22, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Psh
I don’t need a pocket protector… who needs pens when you have a netbook. Get with the times, both when it comes to your geek attire and your understanding of baseball statistics.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 22, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks to you guys...
I know what baseball stat’s are! (and I’m grateful. especially for being introduced to pitchf/x)
Follow my Mechanics blog and music on Twitter
Who here ever said he's just going to turn into a scrub?
All people are saying is that he’s probably not going to be able to sustain the pace he’s at, and that he’ll settle in as a decent little player. Why do people have to have to be nerds or folks who don’t enjoy the game because they don’t think he’s going to be a legend or a superstar just because of an excellent couple of months?
But by all means, continue living up to a stereotype and hurling petty insults. It’s quite productive.
by ozymandius1024 on Jun 23, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
There's no hole in his swing-complete BS
The Wake Forest dude complains about plate discipline and low walk rates which means he swings at everything, which is true but then he also has a “hole” in his swing. I hate to be the one to break it to you but that is a complete contradiction, the guy swings at everything at everybody is comparing him to Vlad, he swings at balls the higher % in the league. Nobody will throw him a strike on the first pitch. Its ludicrious to think he has a hole in his swing but major league pitchers can’t find it and just throw him balls and he even hits the balls.
Actually It’s absurd + old info from two years ago, obviously he has closed the hole or he would be batting about 140 right now considering he hacks at everything, or maybe the hole is he can’t hit pitches more than a foot out of the strike zone. How about stick with one thing and make it not old news. I think he swings way too much but I’ve watched a lot of baseball, this guy fouls off pitchers pitches 9 inches off the plate, if he learns plate discipline he’s legit, lets just leave it at that. The minor league stats are neat and all but there are hundreds of players who defy their minor league stats, both good and bad and this guy raked last year so you are talking about his stats in a pitchers park when he was 23. Check our Chase Utley’s stats, same age , same league.
Have you seen him swing?
He has problems with pitches on the inside of the plate- notice that his swing is very violent and stiff- it also seems a bit long (much like Brandon Inge’s- good for power but not much else).
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 28, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
The proverbial "hole"
Look, I agree with others who believe BB will not sustain a .340 AVG. But if the boy settles in around .275-.290/.330/.515, I will be happy with that.
The “hole in the swing” analysis just doesn’t hold water to me. Some people swing or pitch or run in unconventional manners (Gary Sheffield, Mickey Tettleton, Max Scherzer, Mark Fidrych, etc.). Just because they are different does not mean they are inneffective. The “stiff” swing has been getting to the inside pitches just fine so far.
His stance position is a part of that. BB stands so far away from the plate, those inside fastballs just don’t jam him that much, and his reach allows him to get to those outside pitches.
In short: Boesch likey the inside pitch:
http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9243911
http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9192685
http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9068463
http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=8922181
I guess it’s official: I’m on the Boeschmobile!
A lifelong Tigers fan
I question whether he'll hit .260 let alone .275
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 28, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
He's also overperforming in BABIP
And his ISO is something like 70 points higher than in the minors.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 29, 2010 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
BABIP
tokarz – have you seen an analysis that asks if “good” players have better BABIP? just wondering if it sorta amounts to something like batting average, or if all players converge to a “normalized” BABIP
by redwingxviii on Jun 29, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
There's some truth to this
The more line drives and ground balls a player hits, the higher his BABIP is. Players like Ichiro and even Austin Jackson will have better BA’s because their swings are tailored to hit liners. Players like Miguel Cabrera also have the bat speed to drive that number higher.
But there’s tools you can use (xBABIP calculators from the Hardball Times for instance) that can predict what a players BABIP should be. Boesch hovers around league average (which is .300). Jackson sits at about .340 on average (which is why cutting that K rate down even a little is such a big deal for him- his hits will fall in even faster than a normal player).
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 29, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
If he can get a little discipline he will have an OBP of 330
and slug close to 500. I still don’t get the inside pitch thing, the majority of his outs he swings at balls, he gets jammed on balls inside -OFF THE PLATE. He doesn’t get out much in the strike zone besides pop-ups, Crain got him tonight with a good offspeed pitch on the 9th pitch on the outside half. I would think if he had a hole he wouldn’t be able to last that many pitches against 95+ all the time.
I do agree he needs better disipline but 25 year olds make adjustmens all the time, minor league stats are good indicators but about a third of a time they are wrong, which is far from perfect. There would be a 100 all stars if you could just translate all the stats, the odd thing is you are ignoring last year’s except for OBP. I don’t think he is going to hit 333 either but he does have good hand eye coordination and the ball makes the sound you rarely hear so I don’t know why the BABIP would be such a mystery. He’s been robbed of a homer, how many of the extra base hits he has do you think normally would have been caught, I can’t think off too many. He will walk plenty if he just gets a little patient, it is obvious pitchers don’t want to give him strikes to hit so if he’s patient and takes some walks he will get more strikes. He has to make an adjusment and that is what baseball is all about but he has played over 50 games now so the league has a book on him and the hole things just is a fantasy. His hole is swinging at balls.
i don't know if he'll hit .275.
I think .270 or lower. I’m also not sure that his SLG will be .515 in this case. If he hits .290 with a .515 slg that puts him, basically, in Alfonso Soriano territory. Right now, he’s basically in Ryan Braun territory in terms of his peripherals. I don’t doubt the power, but even if he does get down to where I think he might settle in (around the .265/.325/.490-ish, he’s still a valuable bat.
Basically, it depends on how great you think his power is. I think he’ll be around a .230-.240 Isolated Power (SLG minus BA), which is basically HanRam, Utley, Worth, Ludwick territory.
He is fun to watch swing.
P.S.: regarding his swing, I’ve talked with Steve Carter who writes for Project Prospect about Boesch and he said he does a ton of good things and reminds him kind of a Justin Morneau swing in their key components.
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Now I write at Bless You Boys.
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by Mike Rogers on Jun 30, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Now I'm hearing good things about his swing
From multiple sources. Has everyone waited to trash me? Jeez….
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jul 1, 2010 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll post what I've got from Steve in the fanpost bumped to the front page.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
Decided against it, as I still may use it. Just got to find the time and energy to get around to it.
…Says the kid up at 3:30 AM.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
I think you're a bit low on the "peak"
I know the studies are inconclusive but I think most agree its’ several years past 25. On No. 3, it remains to be seen, as ewild said. MLB teams have had 190 plate appearances to look at and they don’t seem to be getting any better at finding it.
Now I do think the second point has validity.
But in the end I really do think Boesch has a shot at being at worst an average corner outfielder and probably a bit above-average one.
by Kurt Mensching on Jun 21, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I've heard 27-30, but that's physical maturity
His development is probably locked in- it’s not like he’ll learn much more in terms of plate discipline
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I was going to say: I've heard 27 being the start of a player's physical peak.
In Mo Vaughn’s case, it was when he discovered you can wrap everything in bacon and deep fry those suckers.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
He'll be in the 2000s bracket
matched up against CC Sabathia.
by Rob Rogacki on Jun 22, 2010 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly
This is a D4L post waiting to happen. I’m going to need to do some research.
by Rob Rogacki on Jun 22, 2010 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
D4L's Semi-Annual Baseball Buttocks Bonanza
A showdown of derrières of epic proportion!
Ryan Raburn antagonist.
I still maintain (for whatever its worth) that Boesch's propensity for swinging at everything...
is helped by the fact that Major League pitchers have better control than those he faced in the minors, and with the ball closer to the plate, Boesch is excelling.
Vlad Guerrero swings at alot of pitches, and that seems to have worked out for him.
Additionally, I think we’d be remiss if we didn’t acknowledge that Boesch is also batting between Miggy and Carlos Guillen, so I guess he’ll see alot of strikes, and alot of fastballs.
"All aboard!"
Boesch Bandwagon Conductor
David will be on this but before he is
Vlad Guerrero is similar to Greg Maddux in that almost no one can compare to him. It is truly ridiculous to see the plate coverage he has. There is no way to compare someone to Vlad. He tomohawks 95mph fastballs at his shoulders and 79mph sliders 8" off the plate.
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by JoelZumayaKegStand on Jun 21, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Vlad loves hitting in Arlington.
The move to Texas has seemed to squeeze more out of him.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
Didn't mean to compare Boesch and Vlad...
or to imply that Boesch will be another Vlad. Only that Vlad swings at everything and succeeds, so maybe Boesch can do a little of that too now that he’s in the Major Leagues and pitchers are theoretically around the plate more often.
"All aboard!"
Boesch Bandwagon Conductor
Lots of comparions lately.
Seems like Boesch is getting a lot of love and thats great. Just wondering why we are comparing him to Heyward and now Stanton? All are going to be great players. Never saw any of these comaprions with ajax on here? Oh Well. Love Ajax and Boesch. GO TIGS!!
by BennieBladesFan on Jun 21, 2010 10:16 AM EDT reply actions
the age thing should be less relevant
i get where it comes from, but some guys are late bloomers.
pujols, sort of.
carlos pena (who was the latest of bloomers, i think)
it happens.
boesch might not be the greatest OF of all time. but he might be pretty good. it’s getting harder to believe this is totally a flash in the pan though – agree that he’s not going to hit .300+ forever, but is his “ceiling” really a platoon? because he’s 25 with a propensity to strike out?
I don't know how many people are calling for him to be platooned
He’s hit lefties really well so far, but it’s a really small sample (in 500 career PAs in the minors, he had a .658 OPS against them).
I just don’t see why people have to insane about him on either end of the spectrum. I don’t think he’s going to continue this pace, but I don’t think he’ll completely crater either. I think he’ll settle in at around a .270 or .280 avg (simply because he puts so many balls in play), and put up a SLG around the high 400s (over .500 isn’t out of the question). Now obviously that kind of production isn’t going to net you a superstar, but he doesn’t need to be.
If he turns out to be a lefty Marcus Thames that plays decent defense in the OF, then I’ll be totally fine with that (lefty Jose Guillen would be cool too). I’ll enjoy the hot streak while it lasts though.
by ozymandius1024 on Jun 21, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
He struck out 120 times in AA.
He walked 33. He has 37 strikeouts in just under 200 PA’s now, and 13 walks, which means he’s on pace to have about the same rate. That’s a lot of plate appearances where the ball is not put in play.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
without doing research
there’s many similar guys in the major leagues. (though i base that on watching players like inge, laird, avila, raburn, etc…)
i’m not exactly sure where you come out on boesch, david, and my guess is likely less educated than yours, but i think he’ll start for this team the rest the season, and i would go as far to say that he’ll probably start next season
by redwingxviii on Jun 21, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay
What players strike out over 100 plate appearances, walk in around 35 and either hit for average or on base percentage?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
what kind of player are you trying to turn him into? an all-star who does everything?
fact is, he contributes run-scoring to the team and will continue to do so even if he does strike out 20% of the time.
by Kurt Mensching on Jun 21, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Ozymandius made the claim that he'll have a high average
Redwing thinks he’ll be a starter. I say neither- here’s what I wrote about him in the depth chart.
Boesch can bash. Now that we’ve gotten the bad pun out of the way, it’s time to evaluate this favorite of the Tigers organization. Kid can hit moonshots- his power is some of the best in the system. Baseball America, however, is skeptical, and worries that Erie inflated his power numbers. His swing is long and stiff- which doesn’t bode well for hitting for contact, something Boesch has a problem with. He also needs to walk more. I’m skeptical of Boesch’s ability to produce anything other than home runs, and I would like to see him repeat the power display in Toledo next year. Boesch may become the 2011 version of Marcus Thames, but it’s tough to see him doing more than that.
Again, I’m not questioning his power. I am questioning his ability to sustain his contact and OBP skills which are required to make him a viable starter in the major leagues. So, no. I’m not trying to make him out to be an all-star that does everything. I’m asking somebody to show me another player at a corner outfield position (I’d settle for 1B or 3B, but somewhere similar on the defensive spectrum) that strikes out 20% of the time, walks around 6% and still puts up a good average or OBP.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and a LD% between 15 and 18 percent.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
ok here's a list
again, i have no horse in this race, really. it’s just my guess that he’s going to start for us. that doesn’t make him good.
but anyway, guys that hit for ok average, good power, but never walk and K a ton.
Based on the 2009 season:
Bengie Molina
Brandon Inge (i knew he’d be on here)
Marlon Byrd
Alfonso Soriano
Mark Reynolds (knew he’d be on here as well)
Matt Kemp
Ryan Ludwick
Adam Jones
Mark DeRosa
Kendry Morales
Justin Upton
Ryan Howard
Nelson Cruz
Aaron Hill
Michael Cuddyer
Raul Ibanez
Ryan Braun
Again, I’m not really saying a whole lot about Boesch, other than I think that he’s starting for us this year. If Boesch sucks, I’m saying the other guys suck worse, I guess.
But the point i am making, i think, is that plenty of guys K about two to three times more than they walk, but they can still be solid contributors. I’m guessing there is at least ONE guy on that list that Boesch will be better then (hopefully not just Inge), and that makes him a fairly viable starter, I think.
by redwingxviii on Jun 21, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
looking at a few of those more closely
which is what one has to do, really.
but who on this list is a somewhat reasonable “good comparable” for Boesch?
I like Ludwick. Somewhat of a late bloomer too… right?
by redwingxviii on Jun 21, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
couple more, with stats
Shin Soo Choo (151K, .300 BA / .394 OBP)
Brad Hawpe (145 / .285 / .385)
David Wright (140 / .307 / .390)
Evan Longoria (140 / .281 / .364)
Matt Kemp (139 / .297 / .352)
Justin Upton (137 / .300 / .366)
Now of course the field is littered with guys that strike out a ton and have a terrible average - but doesn’t this suggest that boesch can strike out a ton but still produce?
by redwingxviii on Jun 21, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds good
Lets go through the list- remember, I asked for a 20% K rate, a 6% BB rate and a 15-18% LD rate from either an outfielder or someone close to corner OF on the defensive spectrum. Those are essentially Boesch’s numbers in 2009 and 2010 in both the majors and minors. I found the following good comparable players for 2009 in the BA and OBP categories (I’ll discuss the importance of his slugging later).
Marlon Byrd: a very good comp. But a ton of his value is tied up in his legs (defense and steals) so he’s not a great one. The BA is good, so I’ll give you him.
Alfonso Soriano:The 2009 version is a good comp. The 2009 version also hit .240/300 in batting average and OBP.
Ryan Ludwick His walk rate and line drive rate are a little high, but I’ll give him to you. His average and OBP: .260/.329
Adam Jones: He’s okay too, but remember that he also plays CF and so has more value.
Kendry Morales: He hit .300 and had an OBP about 50 points higher, but also had a slightly elevated BABIP and walked a little more.
Boesch right now has an ISO of .280, which is also probably unsustainable (his ISO in the hitters park that was Erie was .240ish, so I’d put him at around .200). My comp for him, Marcus Thames, still walked more (though he struck out less) with the same ISO. In the end, I think Boesch has power potential, but the lack of walks in particular will kill him. I can live with a low batting average if the player is replacing them with another source of OBP. But otherwise, he shouldn’t be a regular.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought marlon byrd was a weaker comp, actually
if boesch turns out to be ryan ludwick 2.0, isn’t that better than marcus thames?
by redwingxviii on Jun 21, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
meaning
i don’t expect boesch to be marlon byrd, at all. i’d take ryan ludwick on our team though, at least i think i would.
by redwingxviii on Jun 21, 2010 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
If he gets lucky
I still don’t see it.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
the who is the best comp to boesch could be a thread of it's own
but remind me how stats work real quick.
you say morales “walks a little more”
if his OBP is 50bp higher than his AVG, doesn’t that mean he walks 5% of the time?
by redwingxviii on Jun 22, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
No
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 22, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
ah
Since walks aren’t official ABs, my quick math doesn’t work. the real walk rates are all higher than i was thinking. i should use fangraphs more.
by redwingxviii on Jun 22, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
No worries
It makes intuitive sense.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 22, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Brennan Boesch reads your posts
And tries to prove you wrong. So if you increase your criticism, he may become an All-Star.
Hell
If that’s what happens, then I’ll be thrilled.
It’s not like I don’t want to see him do well, it’s just that I think he’s playing well over his head.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 22, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
No man
If you’re not actively fellating him, you obviously hate him.
by ozymandius1024 on Jun 22, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
i will be back with research later tonight!
have to meet with the boss soon. i don’t know what i will turn up.
by redwingxviii on Jun 21, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Albert Pujols wasn't a late bloomer at all.
157 OPS+, 4th in the MVP voting at age 21. He apparently had a bad body in JuCo ball but the talent was there. There were also questions about his age as he’d moved to the states to live with his dad in NYC and then moved to Missouri to live with relatives where the crime rate was lower.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
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fair enough
i just remember him being a very late draft pick. i’m going with boesch as a ryan ludwick type player. thames seems like a really low ceiling to me.
by redwingxviii on Jun 23, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
Age-wise, he was young and a stud, but it is fair to say he was out of the ordinary in that he wasn’t on anyone’s top-prospect radar, which, to me, is the more important point. You don’t have to marked and anointed as a “top prospect” to become a baseball legend.
A lifelong Tigers fan
He was on the radar though
Pujols was rated the 42nd best prospect in all of baseball before 2001. It’s not Jason Heyward hype obviously, but that’s not some no name that no one has heard of either.
by ozymandius1024 on Jun 23, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
But its relatively un-hyped for what he's become
He’s among the greatest hitters we’ve seen in the last 50 years, if not all-time.
by Rob Rogacki on Jun 23, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh definitely
But it differs significantly from Boesch because Brennan wasn’t even ranked in the Tigers top 10 prospects at all coming into this season by Baseball America.
But the point that you don’t have to be a “top” prospect to be a legend is completely true. For every Chipper Jones or Alex Rodriguez, there are plenty of Jeremy Reeds and Andy Martes.
by ozymandius1024 on Jun 23, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
While this is true.
Hype for prospects now versus 2001 is entirely different. It’s gotten so much more widespread and hyperbolic. Given all the information presented at the time, though, 42 was likely a reasonable projection.
Consider his draft position, level he was at, some age questions (some I believe still even popped up a couple years ago with whispers he’s 2-3 years older than he’s listed at). I think had he spent 2001 in the minors like 99% of other mortals that attempt to play baseball, he’d be a top 5 prospect. For retrospect, Heyward was ranked 28th before the 2008 season and that was after being the 14th over all pick.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
by Mike Rogers on Jun 23, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I know, the hype is out of control
Jesus Strasburg would have made a couple headlines 10 years ago, now he’s a regular feature on Sportscenter on his off days (though with the way he’s started, I can’t blame ESPN too much). While part of this may stem from the fact that I was 13, I don’t remember any hype whatsoever surrounding Pujols until after he started performing at the big league level.
I think we get too caught up in glorifying what these prospects could become (and what they won’t become) and forget to enjoy what we have sometimes.
Don't worry about it.
There wasn’t a lot of info back in the late 90’s on why guys dropped. I only knew the bad-body thing from this article that tried to track down everything on the situation. Good read.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
by Mike Rogers on Jun 23, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the feedback
What prompted this post was those in the baseball media who use stats to affirm their belief in the talent of a young player, but dismiss similar stats of a player they consider mediocre. It’s really about the selective use of stats to project a young player’s future.
I have no qualms with people believing Stanton or Heyward have a much higher ceiling than Boesch, particularly if that belief is based on athleticism, feel for the game, mental toughness, etc. I don’t think Boesch is in the same catagory as either of those two players based on what I have read and seen. But analyzing minor league stats is a poor tool for judging talent in the long run.
Rarely do players perform at their minor league levels statistically. Some hit for higher average, some lower, some find their power stroke over time, some fail miserably. Projecting major league performance via minor league stats is not even close to a scientific method.
My gut feeling is Boesch will be a streaky, sometimes frustrating power hitter with middling batting average, and improved fielding as he settles in at an outfield position. He’ll be around for a long while, but he won’t hit .340! And the kid certainly has flare!
Baseball Geek
by StorminNormanCash on Jun 21, 2010 2:29 PM EDT reply actions
Actually, it is part of the scientific method.
What you’re looking for is: concrete prognostication. Intangibles like “athleticism”, “feel for the game”, “mental toughness” are completely subjective with zero definable assets and are reduced to the point of view of the person talking about such. Those categories are even less tangible than minor league statistics.
However, seeing a player and watching how they play does have its role in predicting how a player will play in the major leagues. It is the other hand of the two handed matrix that is predicting a player’s career path. Of course people can never be 100% sure because of factors like injuries and sudden skill deterioration.
Many sabermetricians have a chip on their shoulder precisely because older baseball people kept saying: “oh, stats don’t matter”. The street goes both ways.
Dontrelle Willis apologist.
+1
Statistics most definitely matter and scouting reports matter even more when dealing with minor league players.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 21, 2010 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
Scouting and Stats are both equally important. And people have chip’s on their shoulders, not just stat nerds. I find some of the more abrasive, condescending people are the ones that dismiss advanced-stats altogether without even trying to discuss or learn about them.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
Quoting Mark Twain quoting Benjamin Disraeli:
‘There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.’
Boesch doesn’t have the kind of upside, but neither does he have the high expectations, which might account for a more relaxed presence in the batters box. (?)
He doesn’t have to be the next Ted Williams—I’ll settle for a solid corner outfield player with some left-handed pop. He seems to be doing what Aubrey Huff couldn’t do for us last year.
Boesch and Ajax Similar.
Both will be playing in the tigers OF for many years.
by BennieBladesFan on Jun 22, 2010 10:58 AM EDT reply actions
There were questions about Stanton's K rate in the minors.
It wasn’t widely vocalized, but he was K’ing a ton in the low-minors which isn’t always a good thing, but he’s gotten it to a level that I think he’ll be fine making contact in the majors.
My main thing with Boesch isn’t that he’ll K a lot – you can K in over 20% of your PA’s and still be an effective ball player. You just have to supplement your high K totals with either great BB rates (not Boesch’s forte in the minors/majors), elite power (Definitely something Boesch possesses) or well above-average defense (he’s been better in LF than I thought he’d be).
I don’t want to say I’m coming around because his contact rate/BABIP has been unsustainably high. I think he’ll settle in 260/.310/.480 range which still gives him a great Iso (a.k.a. great power), but highlights a lack of walks and contact rate.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
I question whether that's starting outfielder material
The SLG is nice, but the total lack of OBP is killer. Maybe if he’s batting 7th for you.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 22, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Right now he's starting OF material
Unless you want Damon’s noodle arm in left field. I’d argue that he’s about equal with Maggs defensively, but I’m also no scout. The other guys on the roster and in AAA are either not good enough offensively (Raburn, Kelly) or unproven so far at the Major League level (everyone else).
by Rob Rogacki on Jun 23, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
And I hate that
Long-term, he’s either a bench guy or trade bait to me.
To be truly honest, I still think Mike is being generous with the contact/walk rates.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 23, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
It's possible.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
I agree with this.
I’m not advocating taking him out of the lineup at all. I’m not normally someone that says to “ride the hot hand” because I believe that’s fools gold in the long haul, but he’s shown no reason to move him from the OF.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
Oh totally
I’m just saying that we could get more value out of him by dangling him to other clubs. If we could pull a SS (either a young one or a prospect) then it’d be worth it.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 23, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I would be ok with that
if we were >7 games off the pace for the Central. But Boesch has been huge in the middle of our lineup, and losing him would greatly hinder our playoff chances. Plus, he has become a huge fan favorite, and is energizing the fan base.
There is just no way the front office could/should/will trade him at this time.
A lifelong Tigers fan
Eh. I don't buy into the notion that GM's are fooled by hot streaks.
While yes, his on the field, statistical value could be at it’s peak right now, I doubt that even Dayton Moore is sitting around going “ooh, that Boesch kid looks like an HOFer” as much as I wish he would. I know I give a lot of flack to GM’s from the comfort of my couch and laptop, but they’re, for the most part, smart businessmen that know to not put a ton of stock into the last couple of months.
I don’t think Boesch’s value to other clubs is as high as it is to the Tigers right now.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
by Mike Rogers on Jun 23, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Me too
I would argue that Boesch is more valuable to the Tigers than he would be to other teams because of the hype he’s generated among the Detroit fanbase. Tickets, jerseys, it’s just more revenue for the franchise.
I can hope, can't I?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 24, 2010 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
But to be honest
I’m hoping some of the non-SABR GM’s are banking on Boesch maintaing a decent average long-term and seeing average OBP and massive power being worth something more than he actually is. Probably won’t work (see Marcus Thames) but I can dream.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 25, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Him
Or Brian Sabean. Or Ned Colletti.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 25, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Look it up
25 years ago a guy named Jose Canseco wasn’t exactly tearing up the minors until one big year. Not saying Boesch is a 40-40 guy but I’ll take most of Jose’s career.
Do you really want to use Jose Canseco as a comp?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 26, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
And steroids.
Did you forget the steroids?
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jun 27, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess a better comparison would be Jayson Werth and Corey Hart. Both tall sluggers. Werth took a few to develope and Hart a bit inconsistent but both solid and I’ll take that.
Werth walks about twice as much as boesch.
And Boesch probably has more power than Hart (though, Hart’s power has spiked this year with his HR barrage). So some combo of the two, for sure.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
by Mike Rogers on Jun 30, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Jason Grey's report on Boesch...
The following is from Jason Grey’s scouting report on Boesch, via ESPN. A good statistical confirmation of my take on “holes” in his swing. You can read the whole article here: http://insider.espn.go.com/sports/fantasy/blog?name=grey_jason&id=5340859
‘First, there’s the report that he’s hitting the ball no matter where you throw it. This is backed up by Inside Edge data. Inside Edge produces scouting reports which break up the strike zone into nine squares, and identifies them as “hot,” “average” or “cold” zones based on the batter’s production on pitches in those areas. All nine of the areas in Boesch’s report are hot zones, which is even more rare than you might think. That assertion is also backed by an advance scout from another team, who simply said, “No strikes, anywhere.”’
A lifelong Tigers fan
You forgot to mention the shortening of Boesch's swing.
That’s the largest factor.
Ryan Raburn antagonist.
?
Not sure what you are driving at here… but that’s in the article, as well.
My point has just been that I don’t believe the talk about “holes” in his swing, because (a) scouts would have picked up on this and MLB batteries would pick him apart with it, and (b) he has been destroying pitches over the inside part of the plate, where the supposed “hole” is. In short, Boesch destroys strikes all over the zone. His greatest weakness is swinging at balls.
A lifelong Tigers fan
The holes in his swing was a direct result of his swing mechanics.
If he’s shortened his swing that would be the factor in Boesch’s improvement and the possibility of him being a good player.
It was because of his luppercut motion that he had parts of the strike zone that he couldn’t catch up on; right now he can foul them off.
Ryan Raburn antagonist.
My question is (and I can't see this since I'm not an insider)...
What did they use to determine “production.” If it’s just batting average, then I find that to only be part of the story. I’d like to see something like a wOBA (which ESPN has used in the past as they are hiring on some fangraphs writers and Tom Tango to write for them behind the paywall once a week or so) or even OPS.
Ideally it’d be a breakdown of 3 different graphs: one for contact, one for patience, one for power.
Here’s my plan, by the way. Harry Pavlidis is running basically the article I had been putting off on writing, Monday somewhere (I’m assuming at The Hardball Times), so since the tough work will be done, I’ll probably link to it, highlight what I find important and then include a scouting report I’ve gotten from someone who I trust as a swing scout that does it as a hobby.
My old blog is Tigers By The Numbers.
Now I write at Bless You Boys.
Like music? See what I'm listening to at my Last.fm account.
Sounds good
I’ll be waiting.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

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