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Jim Leyland's batting orders are slowly but surely killing me

I realize in some baseball circles it's believed batting orders don't really matter.

But even they would have to admit Jim Leyland batting Gerald Laird 2nd against the Mets, when he was batting (term used loosely) a robust .180 going into the game, was (Hold on....let me go to Thesaurus.com) asinine, brainless, dense, dimwitted, doltish, dopey, dumb, foolish, half-baked, idiotic, ill-advised, imbecilic, inane, irresponsible, ludicrous, mindless, nonsensical, pointless, senseless, unintelligent, and unthinking.

It was stupid, too.

 At least this was the first time Leyland has put Laird anywhere other than 7th or 8th in the batting order. I can only hope it was the last time.

All of this is my way of showing my continuing displeasure with Leyland's refusal to re-jigger his batting order when a player is rested, injured, benched, in the doghouse or when he insists on those goofy Sunday lineups. 

As bad as it was throwing Laird to the wolves in the 2 slot, we Tigers fans realize it's par for the nicotine addled course. If you watch  the Tigers with any regularity, you know Leyland sends out nonsensical batting orders on a near daily basis.

Star-divide

For example, let's take a look at Ryan Raburn's plate appearances this season. He has 65 PA in the 1 thru 5 spots, while only 47 when batting 6 or lower. Need I remind you Raburn is hitting all of .186? Yet the struggling utility man has more AB's at the top of the order than the bottom.

Then we have the case of Don Kelly. The 25th man on the roster is swinging the his wilted lumber to the tune of .214, but has 29 PA batting 1st or 2nd. The fact his OBP is over .300 (which I found surprising) shouldn't change the fact Kelly should NEVER be considered a top of the order hitter.

The poster child for my case against Leyland's inconceivable batting orders is he of the cult, Clete Thomas. In 2009, Clete had 183 PA in the 3 hole, with a BA barely making it to the Mendoza Line, at an even .200.

The fact Thomas was a semi-regular in the meat of the Tigers' order in 2009 is mind-blowing. You could even make a case it was one reason (out of several) the Tigers had to play game 163.

All because of Leyland's steadfast and mule-like refusal to adjust his batting order. 

I really like Leyland as a clubhouse guy, the way he runs the team on a daily basis is the best in the business. In fact, keeping order, running the team and making sure your players are happy is by far the biggest portion of a big league manager's job description.

But as a tactician? Leyland has an NL mindset while managing an AL team. He should be thinking of ways to maximize his team's offense, instead of refusing to juggle positions in the batting order occasionally.

His refusal to put players in a position to succeed by placing them in situations where they have trouble performing (such as Raburn hitting so high in the order) has long been my biggest issue with the Tigers' manager. 

Leyland's screwy batting orders place his role players in a position to fail.

Poll
Does Jim Leyland's refusal to adjust his batting orders place role players in a position to fail?
Oh my God, yes!
382 votes
Oh heck no!
53 votes
Doesn't make a difference!
142 votes

577 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 64 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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I think the quote I had read

somewhere was that he didn’t feel comfortable putting Danny Worth that high in the rotation…

In what sound, logical world is putting Laird that high in the rotation any more comfortable?

I don’t get it…. Really, it doesn’t matter what # they’re batting at after you get through the first inning. But it’s more about the ORDER of the players themselves. If Jackson gets himself on base, I’m going to trust Maggs, Cabrera, or Boesch to bring him in, not Laird.

Maybe Leyland is just a huge troll. The biggest baseball fan troll ever.

by anaaki on Jun 23, 2010 2:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Move everyone up a slot.

Why can’t maggs hit 2nd and so on and so forth, at least when damon is’nt in there, and bat damon leadoff if/when jackson is out.

by jlamb13 on Jun 23, 2010 3:05 PM EDT reply actions  

also, i’m tired of interleague play! such a disadvantage to the a.l. teams in thje n.l. parks.

by jlamb13 on Jun 23, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

A lifelong Tigers fan

by ewild on Jun 23, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

RE: the poll

I don’t think Leyland’s lineups put players in a position to fail. If anything, Laird hitting second is a spot to succeed in. Pitchers will throw him more fastballs with Maggs and Miggy behind him. Not that his decisions are great (seriously WTF was that last night) but I don’t know if they’re in a position to fail because of it. If they suck, they will suck at any batting slot.

by handsomerob1 on Jun 23, 2010 3:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Or you could say....

…placing the likes of Laird and Raburn high in the order puts undue pressure on the Tigers’ offensively limited players, making them more likely to fail.

I'm owner/editor of The Wayne Fontes Experience a deputy editor at Bless You Boys and co-host The Knee Jerks podcast.

by BigAl on Jun 23, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have to disagree

Big league players are competitors, and they want to believe in themselves. They relish the opportunity to hit higher in the order. If anything, having a bad hitter bat #2 or #3 is a “vote of confidence”, and can be used much like a day off to pull a hitter out of a funk.
I don’t mind Jim pulling Laird up to bat #2, so long as it isn’t for more than a game or two.

A lifelong Tigers fan

by ewild on Jun 23, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, a game or 2 is nothing, but it's usually much more...

But 183 AB’s in the 3 hole to Thomas? Raburn spending more time in the top of the order than the bottom? In my mind, that’s ludicrous.

I'm owner/editor of The Wayne Fontes Experience a deputy editor at Bless You Boys and co-host The Knee Jerks podcast.

by BigAl on Jun 23, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes it is

I don’t disagree with your post, I just don’t think putting Laird at the 2-spot is setting him up to fail, so to speak.

by handsomerob1 on Jun 23, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe Not

Maybe not setting Laird up to fail, but the team to fail, Yes. Less of a chance for base runners for Mag’s, Cabby, & Boesch too Knock in. Thus More of a chance for the team to fail as a whole.

by TigersFan1957 on Jun 24, 2010 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

set up the SAC bunt in the 1st?

perhaps not a bad idea, because the pitchers are already set up to fail just by stepping into the batters box in any order position

Rooting for Tiger stripes, not pinstripes

by JerseyTigerFan on Jun 24, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Haha

Exactly.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Jun 24, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

The evidence doesn't really support the more fastballs idea

If I’m pitching, why would I start serving up easy pitches for Laird just beacuse he has good hitters behind him? I’m still going to try and get him out the same way I would before.

Hitting with good players behind him will make him less likely to walk, but it isn’t going to help him hit pitches he wasn’t hitting before.

by Nick Galea on Jun 23, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

the human argument

i don’t really like this argument, but baseball players are people too, and i wonder if JL makes the people happy by giving them opportunities / moving them around.

happy employees are better employees.

/rationalized

now that that’s out of the way, please let our good hitters bat first, and stick the weak ones in the back

by redwingxviii on Jun 23, 2010 3:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

You earn your spot in the top of the order by hitting. If it was Avila or Inge hitting second because of their hot streaks, then fine. But not Gerald “sub-Mendoza” Laird.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Jun 23, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

They are all professionals.

However I do agree that some guys shouldnt hit in certain spots. I think if anything though it gives teh mconfidence more so then set them up for failure. most guys have done well when inserted in the guys spot they are replacing. Kelly I think had a 3 hit guy when Ajax was out and raburn had a s hit game and 3 run hr in another. So id lean towards them gettign confidence more so then setting up for failure. GO TIGS!!!

by BennieBladesFan on Jun 23, 2010 3:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow typing fail.

Kelly had a 3 hit game. Raburn a 2 hit game and a 2 run hr in another.

by BennieBladesFan on Jun 23, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why is Laird still in a Tigers Uniform?

Anyone please give me your best arguement! It better not be the old Brad Ausmus he handles the pitching staff better!

by Marcmargolis on Jun 23, 2010 3:35 PM EDT reply actions  

I really hope you didn't just say that.

And he’s still in a Tiger’s uniform b/c if Avila gets injured, we’re screwed.

by anaaki on Jun 23, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: I really hope you didn't just say that

Robinzon Diaz would hit every bit as well if not better than Laird and he is fine defensively as well. Ship Laird out!

by BengalsNme on Jun 23, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is he hitting .250 yet in AAA?

I dont think he is. Laird is far superior then Diaz behind the plate.

by BennieBladesFan on Jun 23, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bennie's optimism FTW

Laird is way better than anything else in our system. That’s why he stays in a Tigers’ uniform.

by handsomerob1 on Jun 23, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Jun 23, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bingo.

Follow my Mechanics blog and music on Twitter

by madpoopz on Jun 24, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

This one's easy

Because there is no better option.

by theRPS on Jun 23, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trade for Carlos Santana!!! Catcher in the Colorado System!

2010 Season
Team League AVG G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG OPS
COL INT .316 57 196 39 62 14 1 13 51 117 45 39 6 0 .447 .597 1.044
Minors .316 57 196 39 62 14 1 13 51 117 45 39 6 0 .447 .597 1.044
MLB .355 10 31 5 11 5 0 2 8 22 8 4 0 0 .487 .710 1.197

by Marcmargolis on Jun 23, 2010 3:39 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm sure you're joking

But the COL is for Columbus, Cleveland’s AAA affiliate.

by ozymandius1024 on Jun 23, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Trade for Carlos Santana.

Too late Cleveland has called him up and there is no way the Indians help the Tigers out!

by BengalsNme on Jun 23, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really hope that you are joking....

I am pretty sure the asking price for Santana would be something affordable like… perhaps Jacob Turner, Brennan Boesch and Austin Jackson. Catchers that are young, good defensively and can hit for average and power are… pretty rare.

The Chairman of the Steve Yzerman for President fan club.

by Christopher Horvath on Jun 23, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not that it's at all relevant

But I don’t think even that would be enough.

by theRPS on Jun 23, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

That will be today

Tomorrow: DK and Brad Thomas for Strasburg. Get it done, DD.

by Nick Galea on Jun 23, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hahaha

He’s a top 10 catcher in MLB short-term, and long-term he’s a top 5. What do you propose we give up for him?

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Jun 23, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can they hit the Dickey knuckler?...

…or will Bonderman lose something like 3-2 again?

by BengalsNme on Jun 23, 2010 4:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Mistake to bring Oliver up!

Eddie Bonine or Enrique Gonzalez would have done fine. It is too soon for Oliver to be in the majors. I hope they don’t mess with his head and ruin his career before it even gets off the ground! What Leyland did to Jay Sborz last night was inexcusable! Your first MLB appearance should not be with men on base in NY for heaven’s sakes! Sborz had 15 saves in Toledo and was pitching well. He came in to a game with nobody on base the majority of the time. He needed to debut in a no pressure situation to get the butterflies out of his system. The game was lost by the manager and the weather! The Tigers usually win when they score six runs! If not for the rain, Verlander likely would have got it together and won the thing. Now they will send Sborz back down for Oliver and leave him with a sour taste in his mouth! Thanks JL!

by BengalsNme on Jun 23, 2010 4:47 PM EDT reply actions  

He's starting on Friday.

Give him a chance at least. I mean, I’m all for giving Bonine a chance at starting, but at least wait til after Oliver has pitched in the majors before you start doubting him.

by anaaki on Jun 23, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sborz and Ni are to blame...

You can not come in game after game like Ni and continue to give up runs at the pace he is this year and expect to stay in the major leagues for very long. Sborz is a reliever, and will never be our closer, therefore, if he cannot come in, get outs and strand runners… he will not be in the Big Show for very long.

The Chairman of the Steve Yzerman for President fan club.

by Christopher Horvath on Jun 23, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re:Oliver hasn't even started yet

He is talented I know that and I do wish him well. I just think it is too early for him and so I fear the experience will mess with his head if he gets roughed up, that’s all. They certainly messed with Sborz and earlier with Figaro’s heads

by BengalsNme on Jun 23, 2010 4:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Oliver

pitches Friday in Atlanta

by BengalsNme on Jun 23, 2010 4:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Without (Austin Jackson-NL) Leyland finally decided to use my lineup - about time :)

See my FanPost – by Christopher Horvath on Jun 14, 2010 5:20 PM CDT

June 23, 2010 Lineup:

CF- Johnny Damon
SS- Ramon Santiago
RF- Magglio Ordonez
1B- Miguel Cabrera
LF- Brennan Boesch
2B- Carlos Guillen
3B- Brandon Inge
C- Alex Avila

The Chairman of the Steve Yzerman for President fan club.

by Christopher Horvath on Jun 23, 2010 5:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Why the hell isn't Jackson playing...

That’s better, still don’t like Santiago at 2, but whatever.

by rcpratt on Jun 23, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

AJ has not been the same since the beaning in LA

just saying, back spasms or no back spasms, he doesn’t even look like the sme guy in the batters box

"There's no crying in baseball"

by VegasTigers on Jun 23, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

That could also be the regression

And DL him already!

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Jun 23, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

this line up scored how many runs last night?

just saying … whoever bats where, you still have to put the ball in play when it counts

Rooting for Tiger stripes, not pinstripes

by JerseyTigerFan on Jun 24, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, and on topic,

Nothing really wrong with hitting Laird second. Someone has to bat second in every lineup. Would we really be crowing with glee if it was Inge, or Worth, or whoever? Order doesn’t matter much, the composition matters a ton. Be angry that the catching situation on this team is where it is.

If you’re really that concerned, the optimal batting order, used consistently for 162 games, is about 15 runs better than a traditional order. It is ordered directly by decreasing OBP, with minor occasional adjustments to break up strings of same-handed batters against teams with lots of platoon splits in the bullpen. Cabrera leads off, Ordonez second, and so forth.

by theRPS on Jun 23, 2010 6:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Put the overanalysis to the side for a moment.

Do people really think Laird in the #2 spot affects Miggy’s ability to hit the ball?

RIDICULOUS.

If players can’t hit unless they are in a certain spot, they aren’t MLB players.

by okie for michigan on Jun 23, 2010 6:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Laird in the 2 spot means

That there’s less men on base for Miggy and Maggs to drive in.

President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Jun 23, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seems like people have complained about Leyland's lineups since time immemorial.

Every time, it just turns into a boring argument that really seems like it’s for argument’s sake. Leyland isn’t going to stop tinkering with the lineup and time has certainly shown us that.

Tempest in a teapot, seems to me.

by john.kmiecik on Jun 23, 2010 9:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Tinkering????????????

That implies that some logic is involved. Logic disallows sub .200 hitters in the 2 and 3 spots!!!
Chalk

by redchalkster on Jun 24, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Look everyone is focus on tigers batting,who in the hell cares whatever batting order happens to be it will be doesn’t make any difference who leyland’s put in their because, tigers don’t know how to hit the damn ball, the players is the one’s that account for production not the manager so this year the tigers don’t produce a enough to win simple as that like’s of cabrera’s , maggs, boesch, damon, guillen, even those guys can’t get it done- via strikeout, ground ball, popup ect so what are you expecting a mirale?. I think not, look very simple starting hitting the damn ball then scoring takes care of themselves!

by '' spiderman '' on Jun 24, 2010 12:32 PM EDT reply actions  

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