I will not give up on the Tigers in 2010
by Tigerdog1 on Jul 21, 2010 2:19 AM EDT
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PrintPromoting this for a little positivity in our lives -- Kurt
I'm not waiting until next year. Not with this team in this division as they are. The Tigers are contenders in the AL Central, right now, this season, and I fully expect management to make a run at the division this season.
Sure, there are problems with this ball club. There are problems with every club in the division. The Tigers are a couple of games off the lead on July 21, and folks are starting to panic. There is nothing wrong with this club that can't be fixed at least well enough to make another run at the division in 2010, and I expect management to acquire some pieces for the stretch run. That can be done without mortgaging the future.
The team is already better than the team that left Lakeland just three months ago. Most of the baggage has been let go. Gone are Everett, Willis, and Robertson. Laird is on the pine, essentially as Avila's back up as he auditions for the job next season.
Verlander is on pace for 20 wins- again. Yet every time he loses a game, the panic across Tigerdom is evident. The rotation has issues, but there is some talent there as well, and I'd expect -- no, demand -- that management get more pitching before the end of the month. If they don't, then they're telling us that they've thrown in the towel on this season, so why should we tag along for a repeat of 2008? The GM put this roster together, and it's up to him to tweak it for this year and next.
The bullpen needs one late inning reliever, to replace Zumaya, (as if that's a shocker) and I'm okay with Robbie Weinhardt, who's been quite unfortunate as opponents have hit one ground ball after another for seeing eye singles and infield hits. If not Robbie, then Zach Simons, or Jay Sborz, or Brendan Wise, or let Dombrowski make a trade. Coke is a legit set up man, and Valverde is as good as any closer in the league.
Cabrera is having an MVP-caliber season and is a legit triple crown threat. When is the last time we had one of those in Detroit? Ordonez is on track for 20 homers and 100 RBI. Rookies Brennan Boesch and Austin Jackson have been very nice additions, and we should soon have Scott Sizemore back in the lineup, this time hitting like he didn't do last time he was up.
The Tigers are not as good as the team that went 8- 1 before the break, nor are they as bad as the team that has lost seven in a row at the moment. They're very much like the team that got through 2009 a few games above .500, only to lose it at the end to a team that finished on a 17- 4 run. Relax, folks. A season is 162 games -- at least. This race is far from over. If management will show me that they're willing to make a run this season, I'll stay along for the ride.
The future is even brighter. When the Tigers get to spend some of that $60 million coming off the books after this season, mostly in contracts of players that aren’t contributing a whole lot, if anything this season. They have to get better. It doesn't have to come from within. It can come from trades, free agents, overseas, wherever. This is a team in transition. The contract status of so many players dictates that they're in transition. So what? They're changing on the fly. It's not necessarily a choice between win now or win later.
Frankly, I don't think the pieces are entirely there to win later. Not on this farm, they're not. Jacob Turner, Andy Oliver, Daniel Fields, and nada. That's what's on the way to help. From the many will come a few good men, but much of the help has to come the old fashioned way. They'll just have to buy it.
For now, we're in a pennant race. I plan to enjoy it.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.
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Im not giving up either.
However I dont think we should make any deals. Or at least any major deals. We dont need to mortgage the future for this year. Just ride it out with what we have and hope for the best.
by BennieBladesFan on Jul 21, 2010 10:43 AM EDT reply actions
It's like he said, the future is Turner/Oliver/Fields
That doesn’t inspire a ton of confidence for the future. Who’s to say Verlander and Cabrera will still be superstars by the time any of those guys are contributors to the club? (and that’s if they even make it to the show and stick)
I’ll say what I’ve been saying for the last month or so (or longer), trade for Dan Haren. The pitching is immediately upgraded (which has been a huge problem for the Tigers), and they can just call up Jeff Larish and see if he can translate some of his AAA success to the major league level. The offense won’t always be as bad as it is right now, and adding an ace caliber pitcher to the front 3 would be absolutely huge for this team, now and through Verlander/Cabrera’s primes.
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 21, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Dont get me wrong.
Id be happy with Haren im just hoping they dont give up what AZ wants which is 3 ready major league level pitchers. What we need to do is get a guy Like Lilly who wouldnt cost much and a guy like Buck that also wouldnt cost much. Just dont want ot give up to much to get Haren. Oliver will be a fine pitcher. Remember when JV had 2 starts his rookie year and looked awful?
by BennieBladesFan on Jul 21, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't giving up
Then I read this post, this sounds so Tiger slappy that I’m ready to sell now.
management
thank you for agreeing that we need to see SOMETHING from management to indicate they are serious about this season. So far, DD’s inaction has me seriously doubting this is so.
My take on Leyland is the same, as if “whatever happens, oh well, too bad”.
His actions IMO have been the absolute minimum one could possibly do to run a ball club. No shaking up the lineup, no getting furious at bonehead plays or ineffective players. No energetic motivation. He is even too lazy to rearrange the lineup when the replacement position player’s batting average is nowhere close to appropriate for that position in the lineup. Not wishing the guy to be fired, but DO SOMETHING leyland, cuz yer plan AINT workin’.
I am going to tonight’s game, and the last game i went to Scherzer struck out 14, so we WILL break this string of bad mojo.
What are the other GM's and managers doing?
The ONLY real trade that has happened this month is the Cliff Lee deal. All of the other GM’s are still waiting as well. Don’t be frustrated with Dombrowski for inactivity. The next week could determine whether we are actually buyers or sellers. How would you feel if we traded, say Jacob Turner, for someone like Ben Sheets, only to go 1-6 over the next week and find ourselves 7 games back? It would seem like a pretty stupid deal when we finish in 3rd, Sheets walks, and Turner is a stud in 3 years. The deals will start in earnest after the weekend. I think Dombrowski is waiting until then; even if he wants to trade today, he has to find another GM willing to deal before he knows what his team’s chances really are.
As for Leyland, professional managers don’t play fantasy baseball. They don’t cut guys on their team or bench their regulars because their in a 1 for 15 slump (like I would do on my fantasy team!) They don’t yank a starter from their rotation because he’s had two or three bad starts. If you look around the league, I don’t think you’ll find as many managers “shaking up the lineup” as you think. Over 3 1/2 months, we have a new 2B, SS and LF…through management choices. Before Porcello was re-instated, 40% of our rotation was different.
I think Leyland and Dombrowski have been doing a great job of contending this season without sacrificing the keys to building a successful franchise for years to come.
Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. I think I'll stop picking Tigers.
Waiting
Dombrowski is waiting, but the way this team is playing he’s waiting for the contracts to fall off the books, I think that he’ll stand pad and if the team starts to pick it up they’ll look for something at the waiver deadline in August.
The nature of the business is that deals get done right before the deadline.
Sellers have no real motivation to move players quickly. They’ll move them when they feel that they’re getting the best value that they’re going to get. There are always more buyers than sellers, and the best available players command a price that’s driven by demand and competition. So the sellers wait, and the buyers either pony up the premium players, or they wait til the price comes down. Every year at this time, you’ll read quotes from executives of contenders claiming that the asking price for players is sky high.
This season, there are legitimate races in all divisions, some with 3 and 4 teams in the chase. One player could make all the difference, and the sellers know it. When they’re staring down the barrel of being stuck with an expiring contract and no shot of winning, they’ll be a bit more motivated and they’ll take the best offers.
Then, there are other players, like the Aubrey Huff type (like Kerry Wood) who are over paid and pretty sure to clear waivers. They won’t be expensive to acquire other than their salary, and they can be had in August. If DD waited that long to make a move (again) there may be cause for criticism. In August, you only get players that clear waivers, at least getting to your claim position.
The Tigers have nothing of value to sell. The only players that would be in big demand are those that the Tigers want to keep for the future. Johnny Damon might get you a B prospect, unless the Tigers pay some of his salary to play against us. Magglio has no trade protection and a $ 15 million option. And he’s on track for 20 homers and 100 RBI- replace that this winter! I would not trade our (three) stars for rental players, but I’d deal a Luke French for an upgrade in the rotation. And I’d deal an Oliver for a Haren. I’d make deals that help now and in the future. But I would not squander this season, waiting for the weak class of free agents this winter. Moves will have to be made this winter, and there’s little advantage in waiting until then to make them if they can be made now.
I agree completely
But trading a Luke French isn’t going to get the Tigers an upgrade for the rotation, and Andy Oliver will only be a part of the package in a Dan Haren deal (hello Porcello or Turner).
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 21, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Trading this year's Luke French and an A ball prospect could get Ted Lilly
That would be an upgrade over Bonderman or Galarraga, IMO. Or Porcello, depending on how he does down the stretch.
I would not make a trade for the sake of it, but the kind of trade where the buyer takes on some salary with a rental, and the seller sheds salary, with lower level prospects going the other way is the most common type of deadline deal. They tend to happen just before the deadline, and sometimes after if the player can clear waivers.
No it wouldn't
Lilly’s xFIP is pushing a 5 ERA.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore.
by David Tokarz on Jul 21, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
That came out wrong
Lilly’s xFIP is pushing 5. He’s not striking out as many as he was in the past.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore.
by David Tokarz on Jul 21, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Please no,
I prefer honesty to an overly mushy fantasy that this is. Our record is 48-44, but look at the pythagorean records for the division. We are 45-47, the Twins are 50-44, and the Sox, well they’re 50-43 despite an offense that hasn’t reached its potential this year. The Tigers have already maxed out their potential for 2010. Austin Jackson’s triple slash line is .260/.317/.348 since May 10th. Brennan Boesch has a career minor league line of .273/.319/.434, and he has begun the inevitable regression he was due for. Our pen had an amazing first half yet our FIP for that period indicated the group was no more than average. Jim Leyland abused Joel Zumaya’s fragile arm by giving him one of the heaviest workloads of any relief pitcher in the Majors, and now he’s gone for the year. Is it because of Leyland? I don’t know but it was likely a contributing factor. Don Kelly and Brad Thomas are on our frigging roster, what screams good team with a chance about that?
What makes the buy sitiuation even less intelligent is that we have absolutely no organizational depth in the upper minors, except Scott Sizemore and a few 4th outfield types. Inge showed this so evidently. It appears the organization has no real answer to the problem. Were we to buy we would have to get rid of the few promising players in our system, and set our minor league rebuilding back about two years. That is something an aging team can’t afford. Any way it gets cut it just makes no sense to go for it now. We have too many flaws pre-existing and more opening up every day. And, if DD thinks we should start buying and giving away the few pieces our system, in my opinion, he would move into the range of Dayton Moore, Ed Wade, and Omar Minaya in terms of GM incompetence.
Take a look at the top prospects before the season
1. Jacob Turner- not even close to the majors (and most likely wouldn’t be included in a Haren deal)
2. Casey Crosby- lol, I dare you to count on him for the future
3. Austin Jackson- Graduated to the majors
4. Andy Oliver – pitched in the majors, but could still be Andrew Miller 2.0
5. Daniel Schlereth – High Ks, High walks, doesn’t look that great.
6. Alex Avila – on the club, catcher of the future (of varying quality)
7. Gustavo Nunez – Sucks
8. Wilkin Ramirez – Sucks
9. Daniel Fields – Soooooooo far away
10. Scott Sizemore – Going to be in the majors.
The Tigers farm is pretty terrible after graduating all the talent they had, and the team won’t be quite as old once Guillen and Maggs are gone after next season. The Tigers are not the Rays, so you don’t need to covet the prospects so much.
If they trade for Stephen Drew/John Buck/Ted Lilly/Ben Sheets, yes I’ll be pissed. If they trade whatever we’ve got on the farm for someone who’s actually worth it? There should be no problems.
And seriously, have you not looked at the rosters of the Twins and White Sox? They’re both rolling good right now (more the White Sox than Twins, I suppose), but they’re still employing the likes of Linebrink/Pierre/Vizquel/Pierzynski and Punto/non-Liriano and Pavano starters/1B Michael Cuddyer. They’re not world beaters now or in the future.
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 21, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I know they
are not world beaters, but they are better than the Tiger, and I would take any of the players you named over Don Kelly and Brad Thomas. Well maybe not Vizquel . I said pretty much the same thing about the minor league system. Good prospects are, for the most part, nonexistent. It is a sad day when Wilkin Ramirez is your #8 prospect.
Don Kelly is the last guy on the bench
And Brad Thomas is a mopup guy/long reliever. I can assure you that the Twins and White Sox have players on their roster that are just as awful (seriously, Juan Pierre is damn close to worthless).
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 21, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, I disagree
Certainly hope I’m wrong, but this whole season has just had a bad karma feeling about it. The perfect game rip-off……Zoom shaking in pain on the mound…..Ernie.
I think we are headed in the right direction for the future as Boesch has been manna from heaven and “the trade” many of us decried looks to be a winner.
I just don’t feel it this year.
All teams slump
and based on the division we’re in I fully agree that we are contenders in the AL Central. Every game we play is important, including those with teams in other divisions, like the current series and the upcoming one with the Jays. I have not given up on them, Just disappointed that they can seem to get it together right now.
Welcome to Detroit, NO sissies allowed
it will be even bigger
beause the confidence poll was broken so the reported scores were too low. They went back and fixed it so suddenly confidence is sky high!
by Kurt Mensching on Jul 21, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Not World Series Contenders
The problem is, were not 1 or 2 guys away from being World Series contenders. If you want to sell what little we have on the farm to win a division then thats bad management. We might not have a ton on the farm, but we have a ton of money coming off th books where we could ink some solid vets who can actually hit in key situations, sign a bullpen guy, maybe even an established starting pitcher. I think we can trade Bonderman and Damon, get some pieces in return and still compete in this division. I just dont want to sell the farm to win a crappy division title, go out in the first round and be screwed for the future.
by Collins_2285 on Jul 21, 2010 11:27 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This "World Series contender" argument is bogus
My proof: The 2006 Cardinals.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore.
by David Tokarz on Jul 21, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
You just have to make it there. If you’ve got a rotation of Haren/Verlander/Scherzer, that’s pretty scary in a playoff series if the offense does anything.
Hell, the Cardinals were rolling out Carpenter and garbage and still kicked the snot out of the Tigers.
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 21, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. Get to the post season, get solid pitching (Bondo and Rogers in 06) and anything can happen.
But first, let’s win the freakin division for the first time since 1987, can we?
Hope, but don't bet on it.
I like the take, but am cynical in my old age (54). Maybe that’s why I like Spring Training. No Pressure, just fun. My dad was a 10 year old kid in ‘35 when the Tigers went to the series, in uniform in ’45, and middle aged in ’68. I remember watching Denny McClain pitch his 19th win, and my dad told me (after a few too many Stroh’s) that I should enjoy this year and season because the Tigers only fielded a great team every 10 to 20 years. We all know about ’84 and ’06 and I sure hope they get back to the series before 2020, but history is against us.
Come on.
We’re the 5th (or so) youngest team in MLB!! We’ve got tons of money coming off the books next year. We’re going to play .520 ball this year. No shame in that. And because of how weak our division is, we’ll contend for the title. Hopefully we can get hot at the right time like the Twinkies did last year.
We’ve got good YOUNG players. Anyone talking about our ‘aging’ team and how we can’t afford to wait for our young guys to come up is ignorant, IMO. I like the veteran presence Damon has on this team (especially in the 2 spot), but I think it’s tough for him, Guillen, and Ordonez to share the DH spot. Mags can still field, but Guillen will need more time at DH soon. Damon may be the odd man out. I wonder though, if Guillen would have any value. Switch hitting .300 career hitter who can play some IF. Maybe he’ll get moved.
Point is, I’m excited to see how the season plays out, and I’m hoping we get hot at the right time. The pieces are here, we’re only going to get better, and it’ll be a good ride.
Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Fight!
by Brand New Hero on Jul 21, 2010 11:32 AM EDT reply actions
Management is stuck in my opinion...
they don’t really have the resources to make any sort of impact move. They could gut the system to do it. But that destroys the future. They could give up current pieces for a move, but that destroys the now.
If management decides to not make a move before the trade deadline, than I will not see that as them giving up. I will see that as them sticking with the course they set for themselves when this season began. That course includes the trying of 3 rookie players on our current roster, and 2 of them on the opening day roster. Our season and our “just our of the division lead” positioning have all hinged on our rookie players performance. Without their performances we’re talking about next season already, not this season still.
Be damned with selling our better prospects for marginal talent improvements. Be damned with a division title this year and be damned with any sort of crown. As far as I can tell, we should all be pretty damn happy that we have a winning record even.
Keep letting the kids play DD. See what we got. Let that course take you into the off season. Make your moves than.
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There's no "system" to gut!
Nobody is advocating trading one of our two or three real good prospects for a rental.
But some farm fodder- and we’re loaded with that- can be traded for a seller looking to dump a salary. Or a good prospect can be traded for a player that the prospect hopes he can grow up to be. Get Ted Lilly, upgrade the rotation a little this season, offer him arby, and take the comp picks if he walks away. Those picks alone are worth more than what we’d have to trade for him.
He's old, and mediocre in the NL
Why would we want him?
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore.
by David Tokarz on Jul 21, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
To break up all the righties in the rotation!!
Yeah, I don’t get it either.
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 21, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
HAHAHAHA
Lilly: 4.71 FIP, 4.62 xFIP
Bonderman: 4.36 FIP, 4.55 xFIP
Galarraga: 4.61 FIP, 5.25 xFIP
So yeah, he’s an improvement over Armando. But not by much. Bondo beats him in both categories.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore.
by David Tokarz on Jul 22, 2010 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I get the feeling that Bondo is regressing over the past month or so
Armando is inconsistent. He can pitch a great game or get shelled.
Neither are the answer to anything we need, IMO.
It’s a big drop off after Haren and Oswalt, but at least both of them would be around for a couple of years. Lilly is a rental. I’m not even sure they’d offer him arby if he’s not traded.
actually that is what we're advocating...
because that’s basically all we can trade for. We don’t have great pieces for any sort of impact trade. The best we can do is trade some pieces for a marginally better player to play for an over achieving team.
Package them as best as you can and we probably still get crap in return.
Follow my Mechanics blog and music on Twitter
Like Ive said many time on here.
We need to just ride out the young guys we got. Maybe trade for a SS/3B guy but other then that we just need to ride this out and see what we can do. Dont gut the system to try and win the division. Let the KIDS DO IT!!!!
by BennieBladesFan on Jul 21, 2010 11:38 AM EDT reply actions
SS/3B
This is the only position(s) that I would be willing to trade for since there is nothing in the minors for these
And there's also nothing worthwhile on the market for either of those positions
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 21, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Ryan Theriot Fron The Cubs Isnt A Bad Pickup
by BennieBladesFan on Jul 21, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
If he's going to be a backup
I’d just stick with Danny Worth.
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 21, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes he is
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore.
by David Tokarz on Jul 21, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Official President of the Team Jacob Turner Fan Club
Sabermetrics Padawan
by DetroitTigersGeek on Jul 21, 2010 11:39 AM EDT reply actions
we are the third horse in a pennant race
we were at the beginning of the year. we are now. what’s the phrase about “not changing stripes”
better to be optimistic about what we’re building instead of wishing we were something different today.
what we are today: a team with some young potential, a team with some certifiable stars, a team with some glaring weaknesses, and a team that rarely plays solid fundamental baseball. very average.
They play the White Sox, what, 14 more times?
Let’s see how they do in those games before jumping ship, shall we?
by ChrisDTX on Jul 21, 2010 12:03 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
this
Plus eleventy
Blatant Twitter Promotion
by rock n rye on Jul 21, 2010 12:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm glad you wrote the optimist post
Because I lost it all this week.
I was waiting for it
And it never came. Are you a Debbie Downer now too?
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 21, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm just out of energy right now.
I didn’t even have the desire to laugh at all the message board noobs suggesting that we trade players for draft picks.
I’m sure I’ll get all sunshiney the next time they win 2 in a row, though.
just want to see an effort from management
i will accept a losing season (not gladly) from the Detroit Lions this year because I perceive a real EFFORT to make changes and to improve.
I do not see an effort by Leyland and Dombrowski so I conclude they are passively gliding along (or floundering along to quote Leyland) and have written off this season.
The plan they had at season start failed. Robertson, Willis, EJackson, add in injuries of Inge and Zumaya, seay, lyon, etc, and I really think management has just said, oh well, whatever happens happens.
Then their fix was to boot Everett?
Jimbo, how about gettin’ all Billy Martin on someone’s ass?
How about changing the batting order – the players will GET IT. They want something to change too, so whatever it takes, do it.
Just do something other than sit and chat with your fat buddy Lamont.
Jeez, you even sucker-punched LaMont
Poor guy.
Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. I think I'll stop picking Tigers.
I DO feel it
Much of this season depends on our current roster.
Verlander, Porcello, Scherzer, Bonderman, and Galarraga have the capability to put together a very long winning streak. Just wait for it. This is the best starting rotation we’ve had in 25 years.
There are trades, and then there are trades....
Look, I’m not advocating trading Jacob Turner for Ted Lilly.
I’m not even advocating trading Andy Oliver, or Charlie Furbush for Lilly.
Lilly is a rental. If we deal for him, I would not sell off top prospects to get him.
The Cubs want to trade him, and they’re not even sure that they’ll offer him arbitration to grab the compensation picks for him. They’re in sell mode, so his price tag is what the highest bidder will give them. Make a bid, take the modest upgrade this year, offer arby and spin him into a couple nice draft picks that are already better than what we trade for him. That’s ONE type of deal.
Another type of trade is the Oliver and xxxx for Haren type. Some would trade Porcello and/ or Turner for Haren. I’d be more reluctant to do that. Arizona is not necessarily in a hurry to trade Haren. He’s under club control through 2012 at a reasonable price. But he’d be a serious upgrade to the Tiger rotation. An upgrade that is desperately needed next year even if no move were to be made now. A similar pitcher on the free agent market would cost millions more, and DD has not traditionally (like ever) paid top dollar for a free agent starting pitcher. In fact DD has never signed a top free agent in a competitive bidding situation.
There are moves that have to be made this winter, whether or not moves are made this month. There is little advantage in waiting for a SS or 3B to come on the free agent market, cuz they ain’t there this winter. So, if a move can be made now, then do it, and make a run at this thing. I’m fed up with not winning a division for 23 years.
so you're thinking Arby's...
yeah that was terrible
Blatant Twitter Promotion
by rock n rye on Jul 21, 2010 2:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd trade Turner for Haren...
Easy decision on my part. Turner is 19 years old and 2-3 years from the majors. We can replace Turner pretty easily by spending our first pick next year on a 20 year old SP. As good as he might be, there’s a pretty low chance the Turner will actually turn into a good major league pitcher. Haren is there already and has 2-3 years left on the contract.
What else would it take? Gallaragga and good bullpen arm…Marte?
I’d do it because it gives us a much better chance this year AND puts us in great shape next year.
Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. I think I'll stop picking Tigers.
It would take an insane amount more than that
Arizona has said they want two starters that are close to major league ready (that means Porcello and Oliver), and bullpen help (Perry, Schlereth, or Weinhardt).
I don’t think Galarraga or Turner fit that bill. (though I’m sure they wouldn’t turn Jacob down)
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 21, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
We’re talking Porcello/Oliver/Schlereth if we want Haren.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore.
by David Tokarz on Jul 21, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
They don't *need* to trade him
I think they’re just listening right now.
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 21, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
Something else that everyone forgets.
Why wouldn’t they sit on offers for their ace? He’s locked up until 2013 and the D-Backs plan on being competitive by then.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore.
by David Tokarz on Jul 22, 2010 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
They don't NEED to, but if they can have the best pitcher on the market at the trade deadline
that’s usually worth a good package. If they could get a Porcello and another decent prospect I’d do that if I were them. I’ve lost the stomach to trade Porcello for Haren now. I like Rick too much. I see Greg Maddux.
Maddux?
MADDUX?
No. No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.
The Greg Maddux comp is overused (which is to say it’s used) by almost everyone that talks about prospects (so don’t take this personally). What made Maddux special was that he knew hitters. He struck out boatloads, yes. He walked very few. He kept the ball in the park. And on the ground. He got grounders. Greg Maddux had the kind of command that doesn’t come along very often- and he had the intellect to use it. There will never be another pitcher as good as Greg Maddux was. And I mean that. Greg Maddux is in the conversation for best pitcher of all time because of his command and his mind. Hell, 80% of Greg Maddux’s career can get pitchers into the Hall of Fame. There is nothing in Porcello’s repertoire, history or scouting reports to indicate that kind of command. Or that mind (though Porcello is bright and knows pitching).
Greg Maddux is the best pitcher ever. Rick will be lucky to have half his career and if he gets 75%, we’ll be thanking God.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Daniel Fields is better than you.
by David Tokarz on Jul 22, 2010 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I think all Maddux comparisons should be taken with a grain of salt
I agree that there will never be another Greg Maddux, but it’s not to say that someone won’t come along with Maddux-like skills. I don’t see the similarities between him and Porcello, other than the ability to get ground ball outs. Porcello has the stuff that Maddux never had, especially with that heavy sinker.
I agree with Tigerdog in that I don’t want to trade Porcello. Trading prospects is one thing, but I think Rick is past the “prospect” tag. He’s arrived in the big leagues and I think he’ll be here to stay.
"Maddux like"
Means second or third starter. People don’t realize that his stuff was only above average. It was the command that made him.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Daniel Fields is better than you.
by David Tokarz on Jul 22, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly, and I think that's what Porcello's ceiling looks like
He’s very savvy for a 20 year old kid out of high school. He throws four pitches, doesn’t walk many, and can induce ground balls like crazy.
. Nobody ever had better command and control of the strike zone than Maddux. 23 seasons with a BB/9 of just 1.8 and a WHIP of 1.14 is just sick command.
Where I see Porcello is a no. 2 to 3 starter with the potential for a very long career because his delivery is so fluid and he’ll be very efficient with his pitches. I like Haren a lot, but I can’t part with Porcello. Turner, okay. Oliver, yes. Just about anyone else.
BTW- I’m still hopeful for a Porcello bounce back this season. Hard to see winning the division without him doing well.
Since 2006
There have only been 3 pitchers with a higher total WAR than Dan Haren. (Roy Halladay, CC Sabathia, and Johan Santana) You get that pitcher for 3 1/2 years, in his prime.
If you shift it up to 2008 til now, he’s 13th in all of MLB. Doesn’t seem that great, until you realize that someone like Justin Verlander has about 3.5 less wins over that same time period. I cannot fathom having essentially two Justin Verlanders at the top of our rotation (must be what it feels like to be a Cardinals fan).
I would obviously prefer to keep Rick and see how he turns out (it’s always nicer when you’re rooting for homegrown guys). But if you think he’s going to top out as a 2-3 starter, you make that trade to give this team a legitimate shot at the playoffs over the next 3-4 years.
If Fred is going to be an ace, then obviously that’s another story. With Arizona’s price supposedly dropping, maybe we won’t have to worry about this :)
Just let Detroit get Haren already, so I can stop white knighting the guy everywhere. (so you guys can back me up instead)
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 22, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
All true oz, which is why I initially said that I'd give them Porcello for Haren
but then there’s what Haren’s done this season, and instead of just hastening the day when we have a couple of stars in the rotation, we can keep both guys, and if Max progresses on schedule, we can have some version of four ACES. I’m pretty sure that this season is a blip on Haren’s career path, just as last year was on Oswalt’s. The Twinkies are up to something, and DD has to get in the ballgame.
Then get Crawford in the winter!
Yeah, I do think this year is a blip
Most of his peripherals are right in line with his career norms, but his babip is 50 points higher than usual, and he’s allowing .5 HR/9 more than his career. I don’t see those things continuing moving to Comerica Park (with Ajax patrolling CF) and his luck evening out.
I’ll say about Crawford what I said before: I don’t think he’s going to be worth the cash that he’s going to get. He’s going to be coming off of a career year, and the Tigers aren’t really lacking with OF in their systems (the quality may vary, but they do need to devote their cash to 3B or SS, somehow).
My dream scenario would be Detroit acquiring Haren before the deadline, then signing Beltre (or just re-signing Inge if he’ll come back crazy cheap), David Ross to be the catching backup for Avila, seeing if one of Brad Hawpe or Manny Ramirez would be willing to be the primary DH for a year or two (I’m sure they’ll want to play some OF too, but Damon does that now, so no biggie), and save the rest of the money for when someone needs to dump salary on the trade market next season and try to get a MI.
There aren’t really any desirable middle infielders this offseason, at all.
by ozymandius1024 on Jul 22, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Options.....
There aren’t many desirable middle infielders on the free agent market, so a trade is the likely method of acquisition.
I think that Bartlett will be available, and I think he’s due for a rebound next season. The T Rays have Sean Rodriguez, Breignac, Zobrist, and Bartlett, and JB is about to get a nice arby award this winter. I even saw him listed as a non tender candidate, but I can’t imagine that they couldn’t move him with minimal effort.
I find the Angels acquisition of Callaspo a bit curious. I’ve always liked Maicer Izturis, who’s essentially the same player but has been playing second fiddle to Kendrick and Aybar the past couple of years. Perhaps his injuries are a lasting concern, as he’s just gotten off the DL. If healthy, I’d take Maicer over any of our 2B, 3B, or SS, and bat him in the second spot in the order next year. They just gave him a three year deal as he was due to be a free agent after this season.
Landing an infielder that can take Damon’s spot in the order would be a real coup. The Tigers have a quantity- I won’t say quality- of outfielders in the pipeline, but it’s that NO. 2 spot in the order that I’m concerned about, and it doesn’t matter what position the guy plays. Crawford would be the ideal hitter to put atop the order, IMO, but I think there is no way that DD will spend that kind of money on a position player in addition to Maggs, Cabrera, and Verlander. On a pitcher, maybe- but not through free agency. If Ordonez leaves after 2011, there is nobody in the system to replace his production. Fraser is the best of the lot right now, IMO.
We'd be 3/4ths of the way there
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Daniel Fields is better than you.
by David Tokarz on Jul 23, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Verlander-Haren-Scherzer?
Please, please, please, please, please?
If, somehow, Detroit can keep Porcello, I’d faint.
Ryan Raburn antagonist.
Scott Sizemore liberationist.
The positive post worked.
The losing streak is over. We need another positive post before 7:05. Get to work.
Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. I think I'll stop picking Tigers.
Good teams do not lose 7 games in a row
No Tiger team that has lost more than 6 games in a row has ever won a divsion title, pennant or World Series. While it has happened with other teams it is quite rare. A championship team finds away to win before a losing streak reaches 7. The Tigers have too many holes to win a division title. The farm system doesn’t offer much hope. At my age I’ll have to conclude the Tigers will not win a WS in whatever life I have left.
by Mona Helgesen Biehl on Jul 23, 2010 11:18 PM EDT reply actions
Here's to you being 103 years old.
Happy birthday, Mona!
Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.
so what if no tiger team has done it
the other teams that win the division do it a lot more often than you think.
by Kurt Mensching on Jul 24, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
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