Look out below! Rays 4, Tigers 2
by Kurt Mensching on Jul 29, 2010 3:56 PM EDT
in News
75 comments
It's not easy for a team to sweep all four games of a series. Yet that's what the Indians did two weeks ago ... and that's what the Rays did today. Detroit's free-fall continues. At least this time it was to a good team.
In case you're keeping track, the Tigers are now 3-12 since the All-Star Break. And please spare me the Jim Leyland stuff. And I don't want to hear about this being the fault of Leyland's lineups. Leyland's lineups are the fault of not having enough quality players. The team has lost three major contributors, two of them to fluke broken bones, this isn't the manager's fault. The organization didn't have the depth to overcome the losses, and we're seeing that. This is the team. Deal with it.
As always, the starting pitching is just fine. Rick Porcello struck out eight and sent 13 consecutive batters back to the dugout. Unfortunately he gave up a couple of fluky runs in the third when the ball went off Miguel Cabrera's foot and that was all Tampa needed. Because again, the hitters couldn't do the job. For the fifth time in the last seven games, they managed to put three runs or fewer on the board.
Again walking Cabrera intentionally for a third time this series proved to be a great decision, because again Brennan Boesch managed to flaccidly do nothing with the bases-loaded opportunity presented to him.
Oh well, they can't lose them all
... right?
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All of these losses, roster changes, mediocre purchases and injuries
are causing me to have a massive panic attack
Welcome to Detroit, NO sissies allowed
The lack of positional depth in the system is so awful it becomes laughable.
Ryan Raburn antagonist.
Scott Sizemore liberationist.
StringTheory possesses middle of the order photoshop skills.
Immediately trade him for another reliever, maybe two.
Ryan Raburn antagonist.
Scott Sizemore liberationist.
I feel fine
I can deal with losing a string of games and having a few injuries. This is by no means as bad as it was in 2003 or the huge disappointment that 2008 was. We’ve been just one good swing away from winning most of these recent games.
We still have 14 games vs the White Sox and 6 vs the Twins.
Keyword games. Baseball is just a game.
by linuxit on Jul 29, 2010 4:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Perspective
that’s what I’m trying to keep. Also, I agree with Kurt that Leyland’s lineup’s are far from the issue. I gave up questioning Leyland’s lineup’s last year because the fact remains that the Tigers have won more than they lost with Leyland as manager. My only remaining issue is the mutual dislike I have for the Twins and White Soxes and how I hate the idea of seeing either one win the division again.
I can't believe I ate the whole thing!
by tigerfaninChicago on Jul 29, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I stopped being a backseat manager years ago
I use to get frustrated with Larry Parrish and Phil Garner the most. Then I started watching every Braves game and couldn’t understand half the moves that Bobby Cox would make. He was called the best manager in the game also. I then realized that the fans perspective of the game is mediocre at best. Even the most knowledgeable fan would be a terrible manager because they’d be way too predictable. They’d be bunting in every bunt situation. They’d be pitching out in every steal situation. It would be funny seeing all the armchair critics here get out managed by Leyland in every facet of the game. That’s exactly what would happen too.
Leyland does an excellent job of preparing the team to play.
You never read about players dissing the manager in the media, or about any clubhouse friction. They’ll give their full effort for him.
But we see moves that he makes with the lineup and the bullpen and scratch our heads because players don’t seem to fit in certain roles or certain situation. What we don’t see is what would have happened if he had made the moves that we wanted him to. We’ll never see that. We can only guess. Needless to say, a large percentage of our moves would be real disasters, too.
I wrote somewhere else on this site that Leyland is like the anti-fan. Where fans get irate and would be changing things frantically (fanatically) all over the place, JL is steady as you go. He’s just the opposite. He’ll stick with his plan until (long after) it’s a proven failure, then he’ll try something else. If managers were as impatient as fans, they’d have no cred with the players. He has to show confidence in his players to get them to perform.
That being said, some of his lineups are crazy and he takes out effective pitchers too soon just to get a lefty righty match up. And why is he afraid of the safety squeeze?
He also gets blamed for leaving effective pitchers in too long (like Verlander)
and leaving ineffective pitchers in too long.
A pitcher is effective for only so long, so if Leyland is picking the battles wisely, you shouldn’t be complaining.
Oh, cry me a river.
I don't think that Leyland always picks the battles wisely.
Mainly, I think he pulls out an effective pitcher just to get a lefty/ righty match up.
As if that’s always the best match up. As if every lefty, such as Coke earlier this season, should only face lefties and then get yanked for an inferior righty.
Leyland casts all his bullpen in specific roles, but he doesn’t go with the flow, IMO.
If a pitcher is effective, he should be left alone to finish out the job. Calling in a new guy, especially when he’s struggling, always poses a risk that the new guy doesn’t have it that day. Leyland acts as though that risk is not there.
He does the same with the lineup, and when changes are made, he leaves as many guys as possible in their same roles, even if it makes no sense to plug the replacement in the available slot. Hence, Cletus batting third, Raburn second, etc.
Give Leyland weaknesses in the roster, and his management style will expose them, almost maximizing the damage that they do. Like I said- he’s the anti- fan.
You'd end up getting guys fully warmed up in the bullpen
and not bringing them in. That’s poor bullpen usage. I think you’re biting off more than you can chew.
I think you're wrong.
When a pitcher is effective, there is no need to start warming guys up in the pen. In fact Leyland’s management style burns guys up in the bullpen much more than is necessary.
There is no way to logically support taking out effective pitchers while disregarding the possibility that the guy that comes in might not be on his game that day, just because JL is managing by a predetermined formula.
Leyland's way actually works and it works very well.
8 of the 11 earned runs that Coke gave up this season came when he pitched in multiple innings. Now Coke usually comes in and finishes the inning, then he’s done for the night. Coke has pitched in multiple innings just once since June 1st, and he’s given up just 1 ER since. Maybe you’d leave him out there because he was effective, but Leyland learned that Coke is just a 1 inning guy.
No problem with that.
But Leyland first made the decision to go with Perry and Zumaya as the two set up guys and Coke was in mid relief. . I wanted Coke in a set up role from the start, based on what he did with the Yanks last year. Okay, JL makes his decision. But since he’s a lefty, he’s automatically pulled when a righty comes up. Not all the time, but plenty. Some were clammoring for Coke to be a starter. Good thing JL squashed that one right away. JL also got Todd Jones down to a one inning guy, like it was his religion, and worked like a charm for him.
Look, I’m not a Leyland basher. A huge part of a manager’s job, and the toughest part, is to get the players prepared and to get the best out of them. You don’t see bickering among the Tigers and they’ll never quit, despite some of the recent grumblings we read. It’s just certain stubborn things that he does that are irritating, and I think the odds are against them working.
It's called not overmanaging
and it’s one of the things that I have always appreciated about Leyland
"Look at Hugo Chavez--Soccer!"
I don't mean to blame Leyland for the losses
and I know I’m just asking to be flamed, but if this is a bad idea, I’d like to get some reasoning as to why. Stick Boesch at 3rd in the lineup. It keeps Boesch at the top, which shouldn’t kill his confidence, and he should get more ABs. Not only that, he should get more to hit, as walking batters to setup Miguel Cabrera is dangerous. I know these situations with 2 outs with runners at first/second and Cabrera at bat is not exactly common, but with this current order, there will be plenty more IBBs to Cabrera to come. And plus, with getting a little more to hit, a free swinger like Boesch might get back to normal again.
I don't know that that addresses the problem.
The reason pitchers can IBB Cabrera is because he doesn’t have an credible insurance bat behind him in the 5 spot. Boesch has been in an epic slump lately, but it’s not like this roster has an abundance of credible hitters not currently on the DL.
Add that Leyland doesn't want to show a lack of confidence in Boesch by hitting for him in that situation.
Leyland is the classic Anti-fan. Where fans are up in arms demanding change every time a rain drop falls on their heads, ol Smokey is just the opposite. He’ll stick with the program long after it’s been proven to be a failure.
Doesn't matter who is hitting behind him, unless it's Pujols.
Miggy would have been walked in those situations no matter what current Tiger, injured or not, was following him. If you move Boesch, who moves in?
I will try and avoid flaming on this
but my experience following Leyland is that once he feels he has found a spot for a guy he wants to leave them there. Call it what ever you want but that has been his defense of leaving guys where they are and I gave up worrying about last season. Boesch is slumping and if I had my way I would move Miggy to 3rd because I believe in always having your best hitter hit third. I don’t know if protection from Miggy can help Boesch as this slump seems to be something we were all expecting for sometime now.
That being said, if they try I think it could work, but I wouldn’t kill Leyland for not trying it whether I agree with his lineup philosophy or not.
I can't believe I ate the whole thing!
by tigerfaninChicago on Jul 29, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Either Leyland or Dombrowski mentioned this today
I can’t remember which guy it was, but they want guys to get on base for Cabrera. Apparently they feel like Damon, Jackson, and [random infielder] are better at the 1-3 spots than if Boesch was 3rd.
by handsomerob1 on Jul 29, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
True, and moving Boesch doesn't give Cabrera any more protection with what else they have
Maybe if los Carlos was healthy, he could swap with Boesch, but all we have is Laird/ Avila, 3B mystery man, Santiago/ Worth, and Magglio’s RF replacement- maybe Raburn.
I think Frazier probably bats third now, and Damon goes back to No. 2.
instead of letting pitchers intentionally walk Cabrera
I say we get him to take a running swing at the intentional ball.
Maybe we’d score some baserunners out of shock.
wait a second.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_base_on_balls
A swing at an intentional ball resulting in a hit occurred in baseball during a June 22, 2006 game between the Florida Marlins and the Baltimore Orioles. The Marlins’ Miguel Cabrera hit an intentional ball thrown by Todd Williams during the 10th inning resulting in a run scored for the Marlins.
by lesmanalim on Jul 29, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd love to be watching Gameday when that happened
- - Intentional ball (69 mph fastball, NF: 0)
- - Intentional ball (67 mph fastball, NF: 0)
- - In play, run(s) (68 mph fastball, NF: 0)
…….WTF?
When your high draft picks are nothing but power pitchers...
you shouldn’t be shocked when there are no position players ready to contribute.
So we'd be better off
without Oliver, Turner and Kid Rick?
by RealityIsOptionable on Jul 29, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus all the guys we've traded (Miller, Jurrgens, etc) to pick up other players?
I like drafting pitching.
Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Fight!
by Brand New Hero on Jul 29, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
That's probably reading too much into that statement and it's definitely jumping to the most radical conclusion
But I’d like to think that diversification is a good thing in the market and for a baseball organization.
"Look at Hugo Chavez--Soccer!"
Indeed
The org has shown willingness to grab position players when they’re the best player availiable (see this draft, the 2006(?) one that produced Cam Maybin).
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Daniel Fields is better than you.
by David Tokarz on Jul 29, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
We've drafted a number of position players that were supposed to be good.
Iorg, Maybin, Clete, Larish, Giarratano, Collett, Dlugach, Frazier, Wells, Joyce… We can go on and on.
Granted, we draft more pitchers than position players. But if more of our early round position players would turn out, we wouldn’t be having these discussions.
5 of our first 6 picks in ’06 were position players. We drafted 2 short stops in the first 6 rounds of the ’07 draft. ’08 was pitcher heavy, but in ’09 we took a 3B and a SS with 2 of our first 4 picks.
I’m just saying. Perhaps it’s a bit of bad luck, no? Our pitchers seem to develop pretty well… positional players, not so much.
Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Fight!
by Brand New Hero on Jul 29, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL. Good call.
Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Fight!
by Brand New Hero on Jul 29, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Most of those guys were lower level picks though
In the case of later rounds, you’re lucky to see 1 in 10 guys develop.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Daniel Fields is better than you.
by David Tokarz on Jul 30, 2010 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Even in the higher rounds, other than the top half of the first round, there's no better than an even chance of a player sticking in the majors.
I once got curious and scrolled down the list of players on Baseball Reference, and it’s amazing the huge percentage of players that were first round, or supplemental first round picks.
By the way, I was agreeing with you David.
Don’t want my post sounding argumentative.
Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Fight!
by Brand New Hero on Jul 29, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't worry about it
we’re all argumentative around here, mostly.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Daniel Fields is better than you.
by David Tokarz on Jul 30, 2010 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe I'm just frustrated with the lack of results from the position players.
But it does seem that the emphasis is on power pitching.
Hey, at least we're on a highway to high draft picks
Wonder if DD will try to artificially boost Elias ratings for certain players (Jhonny Peralta, Damon) by batting them higher in the order than they’d normally play (improves rate stats, which might work).
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Daniel Fields is better than you.
Damon will stay in the top part of the line up but I have no idea where Jhonny Misspelled will be slotted.
3rd? 6th? 2nd?
Ryan Raburn antagonist.
Scott Sizemore liberationist.
I would guess 6th to start
while we get a feel for the kind of hitter he’ll be for us, and to keep faster baserunners in the top of the lineup.
I honestly have no clue where Peralta fits in.
Ryan Raburn antagonist.
Scott Sizemore liberationist.
Neither does Jimmy, but he can fake it!
Truth be told, we have no # 3 hitter to replace Magglio, or anything close to it.
The closest thing we have might be Frazier or Strieby.
They should create a brand new position for Peralta- a cross between left field and outfield. It’s called “left out”.
I was going to say that you misspelled Indian
but a further look shows you spelt it correctly
I don't think so, DT
At least not those two in particular.
I’m one that favors offering arby in many cases when DD has not, but I wouldn’t offer to either of those two. I think they’d get more in arby than they’ll get as free agents, at least in terms of one year salary. Boosting Damon to Type A status might just make him accept an offer of arby.
I think that DD has mainly missed the boat on stockpiling extra draft picks. Cantu and Wigginton are two guys that would possibly pick up some comp pocks with more AB’s. Cantu is overrated, and not really a 3B, but I’d take him over Peralta and see if his rating could be boosted to Type B.
There is no depth throughout the entire organization.
It seems to me the problem is the Tigers draft more pitching than anything. They do not draft many position players and the ones they do, well, they just don’t pan out. By time a guy has played minor league ball for 7 -8 years and he reaches the age of 27 – 28 are they still considered prospects? I don’t think so. A prospect is a guy who’s getting his experience in A ball and reaches the majors by time he’s 23 – 25 years old. Whether he stays there or not is another story. But this organization has no depth from the minors all the way to the top.
Mud Hens: 53W 52L .505% 11.5GB (last place)
Sea Wolves: 42W 63L .400% 19.0GB (last place)
Flying Tigers: 13W 18L .419% 8.5GB (2nd to last place)
White Caps: 10W 21L .323% 15.0GB (2nd to last place)
Conn. Tigers 20W 17L .541% 2.5GB (2nd place)
GCL Tigers 15W 19L .441% 5.0GB (2nd to last place)
I’m not sure what the answer is. But if I’m Mr. Illich and I look at these numbers, I am probably not a very happy man.
Welcome to Detroit, NO sissies allowed
The answer
Will be prominetly featured as tomorrow’s morning lede. Provided it doesn’t get bumped.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Daniel Fields is better than you.
by David Tokarz on Jul 30, 2010 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I was at the game last night and today
and the games were total carbon copies of each other. Thought Porcello pitched very well today, although I don’t think the Pena homer landed yet. It hit the catwalk.
One thing I’m convinced of though…Jeff Larish is a wash-out. Will Rhymes looks like he could be a good little player. Hit the ball very hard off Price today.
Rhymes is a quick little buger
Welcome to Detroit, NO sissies allowed
by Detroitchik on Jul 29, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The Indian-tigers trade isnt gonna do nothing really…I mean this is not even the tigers this the Toledo AAA team…It looks like our season pretty much Done…throw the towel in…
Semir
I'll give you a call
whenever the Tigers are back in contention so you can hop back on the bandwagon.
by RealityIsOptionable on Jul 30, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
thank you
my question exactly
Welcome to Detroit, NO sissies allowed
by Detroitchik on Jul 29, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't know, don't care
if they stick with that lineup from last night though…looks like I called that one
Buying low. Chance two.
I approve of the rumored interest in Brad Hawpe. It would be stupid for the Rockies to give up on him because of one down year, but Yunel Escobar and Dan Haren were similarly discarded, so impatient GMs at least exist.
I’m glad to see that Leyland is finally not getting torn apart. As you said, it’s not his fault that we lost 3 major contributors and that Boesch is in the midst of a major slump. We can only do with what we have and hopefully Peralta will give us a little boost.
by Let's do this! on Jul 30, 2010 12:24 AM EDT reply actions
Hey!
I think we’re currently in the Top 15 Draft Picks!
Yay! We won’t lose our first rounder!!
I think that’s good…
Official President of the Team Jacob Turner Fan Club
Sabermetrics Padawan
by DetroitTigersGeek on Jul 30, 2010 12:45 AM EDT reply actions
Ok I was going to say Boesch for ROY.
However Ajax is the man. hes done it all year and had no real slumps. Hes earned it and at least we are set in CF for years to come.
by BennieBladesFan on Jul 30, 2010 9:04 AM EDT reply actions
Agreed.
It’s not even a question, IMO. Boesch had an amazing hot streak, but Ajax has consistently performed on both sides of the ball. And then there’s the simple fact that Ajax gets on base more often than Boesch. Home runs are cool, but doubles and triples at the rate and with the consistency Ajax hits them are more important.
by okie for michigan on Jul 30, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
According to BLB Trade Rumors
The Tigers aren’t looking to make a blockbuster deal, but could still make minor moves to upgrade their roster. The club doesn’t want to “overexpose” their young players, which played a part in their acquisition of Jhonny Peralta. A bullpen addition is still a possibility for the Tigers, who were scouting the Blue Jays on Wednesday night.
We’re boned………
by Anthony Steven Lewis on Jul 30, 2010 9:07 AM EDT reply actions
Chicago got Edwin, may get Dunn, the Twinkies got Capps, and the Tigers get Peralta?
Someone is interested in winning, and someone is interested in “doing something”.
DD has less than 48 hours to prove that he’s interested in winning.
What the hell, man?!
I’m in Dublin right now, and have largely been out of contact with sports (or the rest of the outside world, really) for the past week. Mind you, the scenery (both female and otherwise) in Iceland was stupendous, and the Guinness really is more delicious in Dublin than it is in North America, but…
…WHAT THE SHIT IS GOING ON WITH THE TIGERS?!?!?!?
Jeezus Aitch, I leave for one lousy week, and we’re six back?
Terrible.
(Or, as Charles Barkley might say, “Turrible.”)
Carry on.
change Boeschs position in batting order
just until he breaks out of his superslump.
I’d freak out too if i had bases loaded 2 outs TWICE and i had to show everyone i could still hit. (I was REALLY rooting for him to walk – he used to be good at that)
And who protects Cabrera in the lineup?
No doubt JL didn’t want to show a lack of confidence in his hot young rookie.
If Guillen were healthy, they could do switcheroo. But now he’s got Raburn, and a bunch of Mudhens all through the lineup to bat behind Cabrera. That’s why we call em Miggy and the Mudhens.
no - a lack of confidence would have been to bench him
we lost a couple games now so that we didnt hurt Brennans feelings. Less pressure in another lineup position is something he could and should be able to handle.
as to who would bat behind Cabrera, my opinion doesn’t matter because Leyland just uses a random number generator for his lineup anyway.
if you think hurting a rookies confidence is the only factor to worry about, then there would never be a pinch hitter put in, or players being sent back down to Toledo which they are doing like CRAZY.
and by the way, BB is no longer a “hot young rookie”, so adapt Jimbo. If you keep everything as is, BB bats less than .100 and talk about breaking someone’s confidence, that is exactly what you are exacerbating.
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