Who's on second?
Note: I (Kurt) will go over all these issues in the offseason, but for now thought i'd promote this question for a little discussion.
With all the vacancies due to pop up around the diamond because of expiring contracts, one position that the Tigers do not figure to go shopping on the free agent or trade markets is second base. The position is far from settled, but in all likelihood, will be filled internally by one of several players currently in the organization.
So the poll question is this: What player do you think should be the starting second baseman for the 2011 Tigers?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.
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No, What's on second...Who's on first
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
My sentiments exactly
SS has the biggest upside to offer if he can put it all together
But there are 13 million reasons why Guillen probably will be put back at 2b
And then, they’ll have other options for when (not if) Guillen hits the DL again
I don’t see any Rhymes or reasons (stupid pun intended) for how they’re bouncing SS around lately
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
I can tell you this much
Will Rhymes probably can’t hit for enough power or average or OBP to be a regular at 2B, and he certainly won’t hit any better than Sizemore. He’d make a great utility player though, especially for center.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Aug 30, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
I like Rhymes to back up 2B. However, like you suggest this small “sample size” is not the full story on lil’ rhymes.
Our biggest concern is whos at SS?
DD needs to trade for a shortstop.
There are no free agent solutions unless Reyes or Jeter leave New York. Jason Bartlett is probably available, and Maicer Izturis might be had. Stephen Drew has been mentioned. If no trade can be worked, I’d stick with Santiago and Worth. Peralta is not a shortstop, period.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
I’ve said it when he got to the Tigers—I love the type of hitter that Rhymes is. Finds a way to beat you, BB vs K, close and gets a hit when you need it, like last night. SS to me is Danny Worth hitting .270, when he gets there. His fielding is above average. In the meantime, Santiago is fine and often hits when you need it, like last night. If the Tigers are impatient, Peralta is OK. I’d love to a workout for Rhymes and Brandon Douglas at SS and 3B for emergencies. You don’t know till you try, and I’m for trying. Rhymes reminds me of the kind of player the Yankees had in Billy Martin, Bobby Richardson, who used to kill you , but Rhymes hits better so far. The problem with Peralta is that he takes time away from Worth’s development and might prevent Rhymes/Sizemore. The Guillen DL in 2011 is an opportunity that should not be wasted. It also provides room for Wells/Dirks.
by StephenGrosberg on Sep 21, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Can somebody please explain the Rhymes love to me?
Hell, I like the scrappy little guy and I’m confused.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
He's the right mix to get most folks who aren't that into advanced metrics really excited.
He’s also decent defensively. Plus people seem to cling to the down performance Scotty had earlier this season. Rhymes is also smart and does the most with what he has.
I like Rhymes but I would like to give Sizemore an actual chance. Oh, and cut Carlos since it is news when he isn’t injured.
Ryan Raburn antagonist.
Scott Sizemore liberationist.
exactly. plus he’s looked to be a fire starter that the top of the line-up missed when magglio was originally injured. this month he looked to be a cog in what has led to some of their offensive outbursts. he doesn’t project to anything but the immediate and tangible evidence most fans see is that he has been getting on base compared to others who have filled the middle infield – everett, worth, and sizemore. sizemore looks to be a more complete player and his stats look good at the triple a level – but he’s looked pretty outmatched all year with the big league club. i don’t know what to think about him.
by I See Ya Rod Allen on Aug 31, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
He's hit .316/.350/.411
And that’s his ceiling. I’m not saying that’s not useful, and I’m not saying he can’t sustain it (wouldn’t surprise me either way) but to anoint him heir apparent to 2B when we have a guy who is putting up numbers around .300/.380/.470 in the minors and (if he can adjust) projects to have an upside of .280/.380/.450ish seems kinda foolish.
Those aren’t even advanced metrics- they’re triple slash stats that appear on ESPN. Again, I like Rhymes. But Sizemore would be a better option- if he got the playing time to adjust.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Aug 31, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Clearly, the upside is in Sizemore.
ESPN- aren’t those the folks that bring you such wonders as fielding percentage, ERA for relief pitchers, and pitch counts? And aren’t those the guys that talk about batting average with RISP, and announce the plays of the day at 10 pm- EASTERN time?
Thought so.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Go up a comment
I was talking about that one.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Aug 31, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, but I gotta do this!
Sizemore doesn’t have his own theme song!
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
2nd Base and The Who
I would think the 13 million reasons wins the 2nd base debate. But, it also depends how who makes the 25 coming out of spring training. You take 25 guys, 8 starters, 1 backup catcher, 5 starting pitchers 7 bullpen and two extra infielder/outfielders. Like it or not, the following guys would not be with the Tigers next year. Bonderman, Laird, Inge, Santiago, Kelly. I dont think Perraulta is doing such a bad job at short. Sign him (or did we pickup is two years remaining), and get a good shortstop or 3rd basemen. Let Seizemore, Worth, Rhymes fight it out for the two remaining infield spots. Sign (if possible) a decent starting catcher (I know this isnt easy). And at least one good starting pitcher. Bring back Mags for one year, bye bye Johhny.
Peralta is a free agent after this season, with a $ 7 million club option or a $ 250K buyout.
He’s not a bad shortstop if you don’t mind a guy with less range than Renteria and not quite as good at the plate as Inge.
The Tigers will need to upgrade the No 2 and 5 spots in the lineup, even if they do bring back Magglio.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Inge and Peralta not too different at the plate
Actually at the time of the trade for Peralta, the triple slash stats of Peralta and Inge were nearly identical (all three of them). Since then Inge has increased his BA while Peralta’s has dropped.
So sign Peralta for 3B.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Sep 1, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Then you get the crappy bat
And none of the good defense. Ugh.
by ozymandius1024 on Sep 1, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
My bet
DD thinks Peralta can rebound, so he signs him for either 3B or SS.
Plus his scouting reports at 3B sounded promising.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
I share that queazy feeling, kinda like the flu is coming on.
What scouting reports? I don’t see what possible advantage Peralta would have over Inge, but I’d bet on DD counting on a lousy shortstop in 2011. Either Iorg, Peralta, or some other crappy player that’s either unproven or proven unfit. Anything but getting a bona fide major league shortstop. I’d rather just go with Inge at third, Santiago and Worth at SS, and make the upgrades at the top of the lineup.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Agreed
If they want Jhonny to play a crappy SS next year with an acceptable bat, I’d be ok with it. Just not for 7.5 mil.
by ozymandius1024 on Sep 1, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Well yeah
Just don’t accept the option.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Sep 1, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That's the thing though
I’m wondering if other GMs don’t see Jhonny’s second half (or just tenure with Detroit), and think that he’d be their solution at SS if the option is declined.
That makes me think that DD will take a defensive stance, and just pick up the option so he doesn’t have to get into a “bidding war” (for Jhonny Peralta, lol).
by ozymandius1024 on Sep 2, 2010 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't want Peralta at SS or 3B, at any price.
I don’t care about the money. If DD finds a bona fide major league shortstop, for a change, I don’t care if they pay him $ 10 million a year. The problem here is that Peralta is below average both in the field and at the plate at either position. A few weeks of mediocre defense and streaky offense with the Tigers does not erase years of futility. The Injuns are paying his full salary to get rid of him for a good reason. He’s not a shortstop.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Don't forget that shortstops are terrible hitters as a whole
So what’s league average for everyone else isn’t league average for SS. Jhonny has had more good full years in the big leagues than bad (4 out of 6), and even in his worst hitting years he’d probably be in the middle of major league SS offensively (they’re really that bad). If his defense is completely terrible (which it probably would be over the long haul), that’d probably be a deal breaker.
I can’t believe I’m white-knighting Jhonny Peralta.
All this said, I’d still prefer them going with Ramon Santiago since he’s not a terrible defender and costs like 5.5 mil less.
by ozymandius1024 on Sep 3, 2010 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd be happy about that too
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Sep 3, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Again, I don't care about the cost
unless you’re talking Hanley money for a SS.
The fact that SS don’t hit well and JP is still below average says something. He has to hit a ton to make up for not being able to move. But if he gets his 2005 form back at the plate, management is entitled to their share of “defensive indifference”. What I don’t trust is DD’s judgment on shortstops with a lack of range. He whiffed on Edgar and could do the same again. If he passes up the chance to get a SS with a good glove and some speed that can smack the ball around a bit, I think it’s his error.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
I could not disagree more.
I want no part of Peralta at the plate or in the field. He rates below the league average and worse than Inge both offensively and defensively. Only one full time 3B ranks worse defensively, that’s Michael Young.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Guillen your 2B because you do not want him as your DH
There are better hitters out there for the DH spot next season and beside Guillen will only play 80 games before he hits the DL. This gives Sizemore more seasonings unless Rhymes steals the job.
Question
If the question is who WILL be the second sacker, its Guillen. If the question is who SHOULD be there, its Rhymes.
The world's greatest wiffle ball tournament! TheFatty.com
Sizemore
Should go over to third, where his stone hands won’t hurt us so much defensively.
The world's greatest wiffle ball tournament! TheFatty.com
And his arm will?
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Aug 31, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
what the tigers should do
Will Rhymes as he continues to perform. Rhymes vs. Don Kelly if they need roster room. As a long shot, with Rhymes replacing Kelly, Brandon Douglas. I think Worth will hit LHP, with Iorg possibly a changed hitter, and Santiago OK and that takes care of SS WITHOUT a trade.
by StephenGrosberg on Aug 31, 2010 4:25 PM EDT reply actions
If I had to go with my head, I'd have voted Sizemore
But I voted with the heart for the scrappy kid who’s actually producing at the major league level over the born to be a major leaguer type who so far hasn’t made the adjustment.
Can Sizemore come around eventually? Sure he can. Rhymes is already showing that he can do so, with an adequate glove to boot.
Guillen is not in my mix, you can’t count on him to stay healthy. Defensively, he seems to give away whatever extra pop his bat provides at the plate. Biggest knock, though, is the durability. There’s a double whammy there, if insisting that Carlos manning second base is the reason Sizemore doesn’t get the consistent playing time necessary to adjust to big league pitching.
I'm expecting 100% improvement from the Lions this season.
did we learn anything about sample sizes?
Brennan Boesch was all-star and going to easily be rookie of the year. Armando Galarraga was good enough to be perfect for a night. Rick Porcello was the next Justin Verlander. Alex Avila was Johnny Bench. How’s any of that turned out?
Fact is, Rhymes’ minor league numbers lead you to think he’s going to come back to earth like all the rest. It’s really just a matter of time.
Does it work the other way?
I know you’re not saying Sizemore minor league prowess proves he can hit in the bigs, but if asked to opine on the matter, would you say the kid has a decent future as a major league hitter, based on his record in Toledo and other minor league climes?
I'm expecting 100% improvement from the Lions this season.
here's what we know about sizemore
He hit well in the minors. He hit well in the Arizona Fall League. He was an average fielder in both. And he broke his ankle/leg.
The Tigers put their eggs all in his basket, he probably came back too soon and he looked like crap in April before being demoted. He settled in, fought some hip problems, but otherwise has been fine.
I’d be a lot more concerned if he wasn’t only a few months from breaking his ankle when he made a major league debut. But even then, one month is too early to judge.
For Sizemore i’d say best case he’s an average second baseman in the majors. With Rhymes, his best case — long run — is to be a backup infielder.
by Kurt Mensching on Aug 31, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Bit of a difference between Rhymes and Boesch
Rhymes has a bit of a high BABIP, but only by 30 or so points as compared to 100 for Boesch. His walk rate is actually half what it was in the minors right now, and the strikeout rate is right on point. So you could make a convincing case that Rhymes will lose a bit of batting average but gains it back in walks.
Of course, he still doesn’t have any power, and while SB’s are nice, power is nicer.
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Aug 31, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
well the point was, people still want to extrapolate a good month into a 162-game season
by Kurt Mensching on Aug 31, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
And that point is very well taken.
It’s also one I won’t let people forget (like the commenters who gave me flak for saying that Boesch couldn’t sustain his pace).
Deputy Editor, Bless You Boys
Free Scott Sizemore!
by David Tokarz on Aug 31, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't go putting numbers and an objective approach in baseball!
You’re crazy and not quantifying dreaminess!
Ryan Raburn antagonist.
Scott Sizemore liberationist.
I do agree with both of you (Kurt and David) to some extent,
but…. at the same time, you’ve got to give some consideration to the fact that Rhymes has adjusted to major league pitching, and Sizemore simply hasn’t. AAA to the bigs is the biggest jump in all of baseball, and some guys just can’t make that jump whether it be physically, mentally, or both. I’m not saying that Sizemore can’t make the jump, but you must admit that thus far Rhymes has outperformed Sizemore at the major league level. You’ve got to reward a kid who has been able to show you that he can hang in the bigs over the kid who hasn’t shown you that yet. I’m not saying Rhymes is it for sure, but if the 2011 season started today, you’ve got to at least let Rhymes be the guy until you can say that Sizemore is legitimately the better player at the big league level.
is this like how Boesch adjusted to major league pitching?
and then hit .209 in july and .185 in August?
We all want all of them to succeed. But too much weight being given to a few good weeks can produce some pretty ugly results in the long run.
by Kurt Mensching on Sep 1, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that Will had the benefit of knowing that he was not expected to hit for any power.
So, Rhymes was able to stay within himself, whereas Sizemore was feeling the pressure of being given the starting position with all the expectations that come with it. Not like a kid coming up that gets a chance to show what he can do, more like “we’re screwed if you don’t”. The speed of the major league game was overwhelming for Sizemore, both in the field and at the plate. But the mistakes he was making in the field quite clearly seemed to be of the hasty variety, which is something that goes away if he’d just settle down. No reason he can’t do that.
The point is that Sizemore has a much bigger upside- more potential- than Rhymes does. I’d be shooting for that, rather than settling for a slap hitter that’s likely playing above his level at the moment. Either way, I think that JL will be counting on Guillen to start the season, and who gets to fill in is a matter of who’s producing at whatever level they’re at when the opportunity knocks.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
Small Samples
Scott Sizemore has had 117 plate appearances in the major leagues. He has a .205 average, with a .282 on base percentage, one homer, nine RBI, no steals, six doubles, and 13 walks.
A few years ago, a young infielder was drafted in the 20th round of the amateur player draft, and made his major league debut in a September call up. He hit only .167 with no homers or RBI, not even an extra base hit or a stolen base for the month. He started the next year, replacing a popular player for whom he had been traded, and he proceeded to hit just .198 in his first 100 plate appearances, with only two homers, just two walks, and six RBI.
But the team stuck with him despite the jeers of fans, and he managed to finish the season with a .271 avg, a modest .312 OBP, with 32 steals, 7 homers, and 54 RBI, and was voted rookie of the year.
16 years later, he retired with a .285 career average, 282 homers, over 1000 RBI, 344 steals, 10 all star appearances, nine gold gloves, seven silver slugger wards, and was inducted into the hall of fame. The Cubs were glad that they didn’t judge Ryne Sandberg on his first 117 plate appearances.
Another young infielder was called up one September, and in his first 48 plate appearances, he hit just .186 with no homers, no RBI, no extra base hits, no steals, just four BB’s, and an OBP of just .255. But the team stuck with him, and he retired some 20 years later as one of the greatest players in team history, with five gold gloves, four silver slugger awards, eight all star appearances, and a World Series MVP award. The Tigers are sure glad that they didn’t judge Alan Trammel based on the small sample of 48 plate appearances in one September.
Another young infielder was called up by the Cardinals in mid season, 1998. He logged just 122 plate appearances with a .254 average, a .292 on base percentage, one homer, 11 RBI, no steals, just five BB’s, and six extra base hits. Twelve years later, Placido Polanco has been an All Star, gold glove winner, and has a silver slugger award.
Just a few years ago, a young player was called up with the Tigers, and in his first season, he logged 152 plate appearances, hitting .278 with a .340 on base pct, seven extra base hits, eight stolen bases, and 13 walks. On top of that, he was thought to be a great fielder, making highlight reel type plays in Center field. He was just a little guy, but had speed to burn. Nook Logan’s run with the Tigers ended when he was sent to the Nationals for no consideration during the following season.
Beware of small samples.
If you survived 2003, you can get through this!
by Tigerdog1 on Sep 1, 2010 5:36 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs




















