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Around SBN: Dissecting Nick Diaz's Positive Drug Test

The arrested development of Rick Porcello

You're familiar with Cliff Lee's success, but do you know about Lee's failings?

In 2003, the then 23-year-old Cliff Lee was the talk of the town. Baseball America ranked him the No. 3 prospect in the Indians' organization and No. 30 overall in baseball. After running roughshod over this minor league opponents, he got the talk to Cleveland and put up a 3.61 ERA with a 1.17 WHIP in 11 games started.

Another young prospect arrived!

Or did he? His Fielding Independent Pitching stat told another story: 4.35. In 2004, it took a step back to 4.97, and his ERA ballooned to 5.43. It turns out he was pitching over his head in 2003 and that kind of thing has a way of catching up to you.

In 2005, his second full season in the league, he made progress. He walked fewer, he kept the ball in the park. His ERA and FIP matched at 3.79. The corner appeared turned.

 It wasn't. His strikeout rate continued to drop, all the way to just 5.79 per nine innings -- a career low -- while both his ERA and FIP increased to the mid-to-high 4s.

He was winning games, but look and and you realize the once-touted prospect was now nothing more than an average starter. Not that there's anything wrong with being average. It's just that everyone believed he had so much more potential.

So midway through the 2007 season, during which he continued to struggle, the Indians made the decision. He had to go back to the minors and fix things.

You know the story after that. He fixed problems, turned his changeup and curveball in into plus pitches and got on track. When he got back to the league, he was a pitcher you did not want to see on the mound against you. In 2008, he started the All-Star Game, won 22 games, finished the season with an ERA of 2.54 and won the Cy Young Award.

He's been incredible ever since.

By now, you've guessed why I recount that story. Looking at Rick Porcello, I see potential being wasted. A high draft pick, a guy hyped as having top-of-the-rotation ability. An incredible value during his six years of indentured servitude. If only he elevates his game beyond the feeble state it currently resides in.

It's time to give Porcello the training time in the minors that he should have had in 2009 when his struggles first appeared, or he should have had more of in 2010. The Tigers were in division-title races and sacrificed his development for the good of the team. They're no longer in the hunt.

Porcello should finish the season in Toledo, and begin 2011 there if need be. That's the only way he'll turn into the player you imagine him becoming.

Star-divide

We're now 49 games into the career of Rick Porcello, and he's still just a 21-year-old. That leads many people to say he's an occasionally outmatched player who would be in his junior year of college had he chosen that route. If he was a more traditional player, maybe you expect to find him pitching in the Class A Florida State League right now. Or maybe you look at his numbers this year and think it's a "sophomore slump" as opposing teams have adjusted to him while we wait for him to adjust back to them. Give him the time to mature and you'll be paid back in spades by a young, cost-controlled player.

And maybe he will. The talent that had so many scouts salivating and teams wishing they could afford him is still there. Untapped.

Before we get too far, there's a few important pieces of information in the Porcello story we're missing when we just spout phrases and don't get behind the numbers.

His actual outcomes were far better than his expected outcomes in 2009. You can reject the notion all you want, but there are certain stats that are useful for predicting the future for a player. Porcello's weren't pretty during his rookie year. He struck out a paltry 4.69 per nine innings. Every strikeout pitcher isn't an ace, and every ace doesn't have to strike out eight or nine batters per nine innings. But it's a pretty good start. He had a low batting average for balls in play of .281. Ground balls have a way of finding holes in the infield, so that was remarkable. He stranded 75 percent of baserunners, due mainly to the reason his grounders were finding gloves. About 30 percent of at bats ended in groundouts.

When you add it all up, his actual ERA was a decent 3.96. However the more predictive Fielding Independent Pitching stat showed it at 4.77.  The oft-repeated storyline said Porcello shelved his breaking pitches at the behest of the team, and was forced to pitch to contact to go deeper into games. This should have put up a red flag that his development was being arrested, but instead people took the opposite view. Just because he wasn't a strikeout pitcher didn't mean he couldn't become one. Many expected him to take a step forward, that the pitches would just magically be there when he was allowed to take them out of the bag.

They weren't, and 2010 shows he stepped backwards.

Turns out that FIP thing was right. Suddenly those grounders -- which came less frequently as his sinker didn't sink but instead hung up for nice healthy line drives -- were finding holes. Some of that is luck, some of that is an inferior defense. He's standing at a BABIP of .329. Lacking the double plays he was getting last year, he's stranding runners at just a 62 percent rate. Not only has he not figured out how to strike batters out, but he's doing less of it than ever at a professional low of 4.50 per nine innings.

So again, you look at ERA to tell you what happened and  FIP to tell you what to expect. His ERA of 5.91 is ugly,  much worse than his 4.82 FIP. Yet is that what we should be content with? A career 4.79 pitcher; or 4.54 if you believe he's been unlucky with his home runs?

That's not what I want to see. He still isn't strikeout out players, and his FIP has been remarkably consistent in the bottom-of-the-rotation starter territory.

Unless something big changes for young Mr. Porcello, I fear the player so many people imagine him becoming is nothing more than wishful thinking. He isn't growing.

Why is that?

Porcello shouldn't have been in the major leagues during just his second year of professional ball. He handled it well, looked like Cy Young himself had returned to the game in just his second month in the league. Then all the cracks in the wall started to show through. The Tigers felt they were a playoff team with few options in the minor leagues, so they let him play through. Eventually things clicked again and he was the team's second-best pitcher for the final two months of the season. While that was good for the Tigers' playoff chances in 2009, it was bad for Porcello's career.

This year, he came in with expectations that an older, more mature player would step forward. Fans felt like he was a legitimate No. 2. He wasn't, and isn't. He spent a few weeks in the minor leagues to work on it, and came back too quickly to a Tigers team in a division race. The results were  just as inconsistent and shaky as when he went there.

The Tigers just are not giving him time to properly develop away from big league pressures and big league hitters. His breaking pitches are remarkably ineffective. Further, he shelved his curveball for a slider. That is unfortunate,  because the occasional curveball he tossed during his rookie campaign appeared to be a real thing of beauty. To me, it looked like the kind of pitch that could help take him to the next level. Batters missed it 10 percent of the time and put it in play just 12. Of course, it was all over the place, but the potential was there.

Fangraphs gives a look into the value of the pitches. His fastball has a negative value this year; it was positive last. His slider has quite a negative value. His hardly-used curveball has a negative value. His changeup has a negative value. If Porcello throws something, odds are not in his favor.

Which leads me back to my point. Pitching in the MLB before he's fully formed is detrimental to the success you expect to see him have in the Old English D. You think that is just magically going to fix itself? Keep pitching in the major leagues and magically one day everything will click into place? He needs to make sure his sinker has weight, his changeup effectively keeps batters on edge and his breaking pitch can consistently get him swings and misses. Right now, consistency is not a word you would use to describe him.

There's nothing wrong with allowing Porcello more time to develop in Toledo. It's not an insult to him. It's no different than what Lee did. Or what Roy Halladay did. Or what Zack Greinke did. Or any other number of young pitchers who came up just a bit too soon and needed to go back to the minor leagues to fully put things together.

Bottom line: The Tigers own the rights to Porcello for four five more seasons. It's best for both them and Porcello if he gets the best chance to become the player we all believe he can be. To do that, they must send him to the minor leagues for more than a handful of games.

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A few weeks ago

I would have said there was no way the Tigers would do anything of the sort because they were contending and needed him in the rotation, regardless of what was best for him.

Now that they are out of the division race, I don’t know. They have to be thinking long-term now, right?

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Aug 9, 2010 6:30 AM EDT reply actions  

Agree with the story 100%

Porcello has almost nothing to gain finishing the season in Detroit.
Not sure why he hasn’t been moved to Toledo yet.

by JAYRC on Aug 9, 2010 7:26 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Erie

Send him to Erie or Lakeland.

And Kurt, the Blue Jays did that to Halladay too.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 7:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Never mind

Saw the mention at the end.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Doubt he'd go to Lakeland

I’d sure like to have him in a LFT uniform again tho
As long as he irons out his issues

by JAYRC on Aug 9, 2010 7:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Again....

The writing and analysis here is just top notch stuff. Thanks for the effort and skill here. I’ve moved down to the Pirates of the Caribbean like environs of Miami, and it’s great to read honest, mid-western stuff in the early morning humidity.

by Flying J on Aug 9, 2010 8:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Ricky P.

Totally agree with you, Kurt. The Tigers have a bad habit of rushing guys. This thing with Boesch has made me lose a ton of respect for Leyland. He has left that poor kid hung out to dry in an attempt to stay in the race. It’s almost pathetic. I don’t know if it was his decision alone or if Dombrowski had a hand in it, but if it was Leyland’s alone, he should be fired.

by ScottyDan on Aug 9, 2010 8:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Agreed.

STOP RUSHING OUR PROSPECT’S DEVELOPMENT!
It’s maddening, but FredFred can still turn it around (duh, this kid’s 21!).
Send him to Toledo, and maybe Eerie, but Eerie is so bad…
Keep him there for a prolonged period of time, even if he’s doing well.
Wait ‘til he dominates the league. Not just two or three starts with mixed results.
Now that we’re really out of the race, we can afford to do this.

Will Tigers’ management do this? Hate to say this, but it’s doubtful.

Official President of the Team Jacob Turner Fan Club
Sabermetrics Padawan

by DetroitTigersGeek on Aug 9, 2010 8:41 AM EDT reply actions  

I wasn't a fan of bringing Porcello back up from Toledo earlier this season

He wasn’t pitching well in AAA when sent down, but his first start after getting back to Detroit went well so everyone thought he was fixed. The only question is who takes Porcello’s spot in the rotation for the rest of this season if he is sent down? It’s a big ‘if,’ but would Porcello’s development just come at the expense of another prospect like Oliver?

by handsomerob1 on Aug 9, 2010 8:54 AM EDT reply actions  

That would be a bit of a catch-22

If that is the case, does the organization essentially select which player they would prefer to see succeed? If they do that, it’s not right to play with players’ careers like that. I would hope that they would simply understand that there is nothing gained in bringing up any of the young guys that have already been up and struggled. My hope would be that they would bring up a piece of organizational filler, or that they would let a guy like Bonine take his place in the rotation and then call up a reliever. Save the more precious arms!

"Look at Hugo Chavez--Soccer!"
YNWA

by baum on Aug 9, 2010 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Converting Bonine into a starter would probably be their best option

They would allow more developmental time for the prospects while giving Bonine his due. Who knows, maybe Bonine succeeds and throws his name into the ring as a possible 5th starter in 2011. He can’t allow inherited baserunners to score if he starts, right?

by handsomerob1 on Aug 9, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

There’s no way it should be an either oliver or porcello thing. why does it have to be? you have triple-a for a reason. Pluck a starter from there and give him his two months in the big leagues this year. Evaluate things n the offseason to decide how to proceed with next year’s rotation.

by Kurt Mensching on Aug 9, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

No

Bring Figaro up. We’re going nowhere anyways, might as well see if he can stick in the rotation after a year of Toledo.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

What about Gagnier?

A cursory look at his stats makes it seem like, after an awful 2008, he’s has good success with the AA/AAA teams for the last year and a half. He’s a guy I never hear a peep about, though. Is there something specific about his skill set that won’t translate to the majors?

by theRPS on Aug 9, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

His FIP is mediocre

And his stuff is mediocre as well. Wish I got to see him this weekend, but I’ve heard he profiles better as a middle reliever.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

This is phenomenal Kurt. First of all, thank you for providing perspective. Should we expect Porcello to resemble anything like Halladay/Lee/etc.? I don’t think it would be reasonable to expect that, but it’s nice to see a comparative benchmark for how other top pitching prospects have been handled when they’ve struggled initially. I’ll admit that I’ve probably had the same emotional, short-sighted response at times that most people have had with him. I would be fine seeing him in the minors at least into the middle of next year, if not simply allowing him to develop all of next year at AA or AAA. Let’s not ruin a perfectly good prospect because of poor handling!

"Look at Hugo Chavez--Soccer!"
YNWA

by baum on Aug 9, 2010 9:02 AM EDT reply actions  

I wish things could be arranged so they could send him to the AFL

would probably prove to be an excellent experience. doubt it’s possible though

Director of the 2010 Free Casper Wells campaign
No Run Support

by allikazoo on Aug 9, 2010 9:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Dunno if you'd want the innings increase

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's probably impossible, but would they shut him down early?

It seems like it might accomplish the goal of allowing the FO to make sure they were out of it. Also, are there enough starts in the AFL for him to really make a change?

by TennesseeYooper on Aug 9, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

great article

Great article Kurt. I agree with all of it. Unfortunately, I don’t see the Tigers sending him back to the minors for any length of time. They will be in win now mode again next year and they won’t have enough pitchers, so they’ll put him in the rotation ready or not.

Lee

by LPanas on Aug 9, 2010 9:50 AM EDT reply actions  

I know it's late, but . . .

I heard you on the radio last week when I was in the UP for my sister’s wedding. Great job, and congrats!

by TennesseeYooper on Aug 9, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

what I think is interesting

is our scouts. The ones whose job it is to tell management that Miller, Maybin, Porcello, and Oliver are ready for the show. They are batting .000 in those assessments unless DD ignores them.

Get ready for Turner in ’11.

by el duderino on Aug 9, 2010 10:26 AM EDT reply actions  

No way

Turner’s struggling in the FSL. No way we see him next year.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

We shouldn't even see Oliver yet, let alone Turner

DD should have learned his lesson with Bonderman. He halted his development short of developing a third pitch, and pretty much wasted the guy’s career. Yet he was sure enough in his development to bet $ 40 million on him.

If you survived 2003, you can get through this!

by Tigerdog1 on Aug 9, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

NO!

LEAVE JACOB TURNER ALONE!!!!
We might as well break his arm, now.

But I see what you’re saying. With our management, I wouldn’t be surprised if Turner makes a cameo in 2011, if he starts to turn things around.
However, like David T said, he’s been struggling. Which is to be expected. He’s young and going against a tad bit older competition. His future is still pretty bright.

Official President of the Team Jacob Turner Fan Club
Sabermetrics Padawan

by DetroitTigersGeek on Aug 9, 2010 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Four years

Lets say Rick spends the entire year next year in the minors, does that use up one of the years that the tigers have rights to him?

by ND22 on Aug 9, 2010 10:28 AM EDT reply actions  

So exactly what

would Rick be doing differently in the minors then he has been doing with Detroit? How would he be pitching differently? You’re telling me that right now, when he goes out to the mound, someone is telling him ’Don’t throw your curveball, because it might not be good enough? In fact, don’t even throw it when you’re between games, because… just because!’ Nonsense. Would he be getting better pitching instruction in the minors? I hope not, or that would be saying that Knapp isn’t our best pitching coach, and I’d think we’d want our best pitching coach to be coaching our best pitchers. Is it a confidence thing, that you think RP would overmatch AAA (or even AA) guys, and so gain more confidence? I guess there would be something to this, but I don’t see much actual pitching ‘growth’ in that, because the same better batters are still up here in the bigs to tatoo him next time he’s brought up. Nope. I think he’s in the right place, right now, assuming that he’s allowed to develop secondary pitches (and now that the Tig’s are out of the race, why not?) and that he gets good and appropriate coaching help. I don’t see the value in sending him down again.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 11:07 AM EDT reply actions  

so you wouldnt see the value of Lee, or Hallaydays development. His secondary stuff is not MLB quality. As witnessed by almost a decade of Bondo it is hard to develop pitches at the MLB level by throwing them to MLB hitters.

by el duderino on Aug 9, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

i suspect

that if someone researched it a bit, there would be a good number of instances in which a very good major league pitcher did NOT have to go back to the minors when he had an early slump, but rather stayed in the majors, got bigger and stronger and through work and understanding ‘the art of pitching’ (don’t blame me, blame Jim Price) developed his pitches into out pitches and just worked his way through it. I get what you’re saying and what Kurt says in his response, but I really believe that, if you ask all those pitchers at Toledo right now, they’re not going to say ’I’m just working on developing my pitches’, they’ll say ’I’m trying like hell to get guys out using whatever I can to do it, because the way I get the attention of the suits in the big club’s office is to post great numbers.’ And I think they’d be right. I think guys get sent to the minors for a couple of reasons: to rehab injuries (or rehab ‘holes’ in their games, if they’re young), or because the suits think that there is a better option for the big club at their position. In the best of all worlds, it would work like you say. But I don’t think, if RP wasn’t getting guys out in AAA, that we’d be bringing him back very quickly, no matter how good he says his curve ball is getting. And I’ll bet he realizes that, and would be focused on just getting guys out. It’s a human nature thing, I think.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

bes honest with you

I’ve been clicking through Fangraphs for awhile now trying to find top pitchers who have similar arcs to Porcello’s and I’m coming up short. Most of them were a lot more successful from the start. It’s hard to find any of them with FIPs as high as Porcello has started off.

It’s easier to find a guy like Jon Lester who spent a lot of 2007 in the minors after a 2006 callup, or Clay Bucchholtz, who started 16 games in the minors in 2009 after a 4.82 FIP in 2008 with the Red Sox.

The important thing to remember, either way, is that each pitcher is an individual. There’s no guarantee Porcello will or won’t suddenly become an ace if he never goes to the minors, and there’s no guarantee he will if he does go there.

But right now odds look pretty steep based on his first 49 games, so he really ought to spend more time in development.

by Kurt Mensching on Aug 9, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

OK further

because I know that some view the FIP stat can be unfair to sinkerballers and contact hitters, I just tried to focus on some of them.

Your best argument for similar pitchesr may be in a guy like Aaron Cook. But I’m not sure it’s one I’d make. His FIP is 4.43 and ERA 4.30 for his career. I like to think we view Porcello as having more potential than that. You could also be looking at a guy like Jason Marquis but then his FIP actually rose to 4.84.

Brandon Webb and Chien-Ming Wang both came out of the box good and Webb struck out way more batters from the start

by Kurt Mensching on Aug 9, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

thanks for the research, Kurt

great job! It certainly appears that the ‘traditional’ route is the commonest (perhaps somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy), but of one thing there’s no doubt: Porcello still retains huge Potential, and whether it’s in Toledo (or Erie) or in Detroit, some way must be found to turn that ‘P’ word into reliable execution. I’m ok with sending him down, or considering the corpse of this season (if not the corpse, at least bleeding out toward it), allowing him to get his nose bloodied as he ‘works on his stuff’. If we’re going to send him down, though, let’s not sacrifice Oliver, Turner, or another good future arm by bringing them up, for exactly the same reason we’d be sending Porcello down. Instead, bring up some AAAA long-timer to fill in until we’ve got one of the kids majors-ready.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Results vs. Goals

Tom brings up a point that I think is valid here. I think it’s human nature to want to have good results (ERA, W/L, FIP…etc) in the minors in order to get to the bigs. It’s not MLB, but it’s still professional, competitive baseball and I am reluctant to believe that a 21 year old kid that’s tasted the big leagues (and the corresponding paycheck) is willing to completely sacrifice results in the name of working on a curve ball.

If no one cares about minor league results, I want to start seeing a new approach in Torkaz’s MLM updates. Instead of Casper Wells going 3-4 with a double and HR, I want to see this, “Casper Wells had good recognition of the strike zone and hit the ball with authority.” “Andy Oliver located his curve ball well and threw 68% fastballs…”

See what I mean? Even our Minor League Editor (no offense intended) is focused on RESULTS instead of GOALS.

Even if the organizational decision makers are capable of separating GOALS from RESULTS, they have a hard time justifying this approach to the fan base. Players know that the fan base sees their RESULTS. The organization knows that if the RESULTS in Toledo look good, it makes your fan base happy to call up the “studs” on the farm. (For anyone that doesn’t see baseball as a business, happy fan base = revenue).

I’m not arguing that Procello doesn’t need to develop his other pitches. I’m just saying that doing it in the minors isn’t always the route that the player will go along with.

Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.

by momotigers on Aug 9, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

In Tokarz's defense

He only posts stats because they are all he has available. There’s no report saying things like “Jacob Turner’s fastball looked like Jesus reincarnated.” We only read about results because it’s all that is reported by the MSM.

by handsomerob1 on Aug 9, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

My recaps are just of the box scores. I can’t do anything else- I don’t see many games. There is, however a series of scouting reports that does focus on goals rather than results.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really do understand your approach

You’re not at all of the minor league games and stats are a much more quick and easy way to see how our farm hands are performing. I didn’t mean for it to come across as an insult. I very much respect the information you provide on our minor league system.

I’m just saying that results are what shows up everywhere, not how well someone is progressing toward a goal.

Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.

by momotigers on Aug 9, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s why it’s imperative to get reports from those people who watch those prospects on a regular basis.

Just sayin’

by JAYRC on Aug 9, 2010 3:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

You're absoltuely right

Which is why I make sure to emphasize the importance of scouting reports when I write. Numbers are nice because they’re tangible so people can grasp something, but the scouting reports are absolutely key.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

thanks, momo

for recognizing what I poorly articulated. You hit the nail squarely on the head: when we promote from the minors, we usually are looking at the guys that are having success. All those guys must see that; they are incented to do those things that look good on paper: keep the ERA down, get K’s, etc. They aren’t incented (that I know of) to show (except by results, or rather RESULTS : )) to show that they are hitting the corners more effectively or developing a changeup.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ideally though

We should see that reflected in the statistics.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, SSS

If Porcello (for example) got rocked the first several times he went out there working on his curve ball, then it got better, the statistics will still have in them the effects of the times he got killed. Depending on how long the AAA manager kept him out there while the bad guys whacked him around, the stats could be pretty skewed in a negative direction.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Another point to look at

How long does Larry Parrish leave someone like Porcello out there when he’s getting pounded trying to develop a curve? If we’re really trying to hone that pitch, there may certainly be a few blowout games in Toledo. All of a sudden, Toledo isn’t a contender for it’s league playoff, attendance suffers, Parrish’s job may be on the line.

Bottom line: It’s silly to say that winning doesn’t matter in Toledo. It does and as long as they keep score in these games, people will try to do what is effective (at least to some level). The pitcher will shy away from liability pitches, the managers will hook players, and there will be other effects associated with winning that are counter-productive to development.

However, part of me is just debating to debate. I fully agree that development is a greater part of minor league ball than MLB. I just think that we shouldn’t have this idealistic view of minor league baseball as some glorified tee-ball field where it’s “all about the kids.”

Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.

by momotigers on Aug 9, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Toledo is 10.5 games out.

Something tells me they don’t have to worry about the playoffs.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

here's the key difference

in the minors, like spring training, he can work on one thing consistently and let the numbers be damned. It’s not his job to win games anywhere but in Detroit. If he needs to work on locating his changeup or slider in a specific spot or if he wants to work on pitch sequencing, he can feel free to do so. If they hit him, they hit him. The team knows what’s up and it’s not going to look specifically at the results, they’re going to look for the pitches to be controlled.

And throwing those things in side sessions is not the same as throwing them to live batters.

by Kurt Mensching on Aug 9, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

update:

MLB Trade Rumors’ Eddie B told me that the couple of weeks Porcello spent in Toledo was enough to push back his team control a year. So he has five seasons in Detroit.

by Kurt Mensching on Aug 9, 2010 11:15 AM EDT reply actions  

What if he was sent down for a while this year?

Would it push it back further?

Official President of the Team Jacob Turner Fan Club
Sabermetrics Padawan

by DetroitTigersGeek on Aug 9, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again. Sent down again...

I know he was sent down “this year” already, too….

Official President of the Team Jacob Turner Fan Club
Sabermetrics Padawan

by DetroitTigersGeek on Aug 9, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

no. Once he’s down the minimum amount it doesn’t matter how much longer he stays that year.

by Kurt Mensching on Aug 9, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

A-effing-men

2010 is a write-off. Do what’s best for 2011 and beyond.

by ChrisDTX on Aug 9, 2010 12:13 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

So, how long is he down, and who's the man coming up?

The minor leagues play for 3 more weeks….maybe four starts for Porcello. That’s probably not enough time when comparing the cases of Halladay and Lee. Porcello would probably be down until the All-Star game next year or later if you truly want to make it a developmental stint.

Who comes up this year? Figaro in a fish-or-cut-bait audition? Obviously not Oliver (under the same developmental assumption.) Furbush? Does Grangier deserve a shot? I think that this might be a worthwhile audition. His numbers have been pretty good this year. I feel that the organization doesn’t have any plan for him in the future, but maybe 6 or 7 respectable starts would give us a little trade bait for the winter meetings.

Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.

by momotigers on Aug 9, 2010 1:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Figaro and Gagnier

Alfredo deserves a chance and while I don’t think Gagnier can start in the Bigs, might at least toss him to the wolves and hope he goes Galarraga and gets some trade value.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate this narrative that ML pitchers never improve in the majors, and that they always improve in the minors,

We take it as a foregone conclusion that Bonderman would’ve gotten so much better if he had spent time in Toledo. That completely ignores the fact that he was already a very good pitcher by 2006, with an FIP lower than 3.5 and leading the league in strikeouts. He did plenty of developing in the bigs before injuries derailed his career. Verlander? He hasn’t had any trouble making adjustments in the majors. Miller? Well he’s spent plenty of time in the minors, he still sucks.

I’m always told that Bonderman would have learned a changeup if he were in the minors. Why? Do you know how many pitchers spend their careers in the minors and NEVER learn pitches? The dude had countless chances to work on that changeup, between starts, spring training, offseasons, etc. He had 5 seasons between when he broke in to learn it, until the injury bug got him. A changeup is just a matter of grip and execution, and if he can’t do it, he can’t do it. There’s a reason why scouts talk about pitchers as having plus sliders, plus curveballs, below average changeups, etc. It’s because it’s never a foregone conclusion that going to the minors means that you’ll actually get better. The goal is to beat major leaguers, and you can’t learn to do that facing bums in AAA.

Pitchers get better in the majors all the time. CC Sabathia came up really young and pitched pretty well for a young guy. For his first 5 years he was solid, but not great. FIPs in the 4s, ERA of 4.10 for that time frame, very pitchable but he hadn’t refined his game into the ace that people thought he had the potential of being. The Indians had faith that he could take that next step by growing into his stuff and adjusting it to the major league environment. In 2006, Sabathia took his decent #2 production from that point and blew it out of the water: better FIP, ERA dropped a whole 0.8 runs, K rate up, BB rate down, HR rate down. From 2006 to the present, Sabathia has been a bona fide ace with a 3.12 ERA and all the peripherals to back that up. Amazingly, he did not need to go hang out in Akron to accomplish this, he just made the adjustments.

“That’s the only way he’ll turn into the player you imagine him becoming.”

Seriously, I see no reason to accept this as a fact. Plenty of examples of guys who have made adjustments and improved them. And in response to the idea that in the minors he can work on stuff exclusively because it’s ok if he doesn’t win games in the minors, I think we’re past the point where what happens in the Tigers season matters. Do the August games really count anymore? There’s plenty of opportunity for Porcello to spend the rest of 2010 trying out his secondary stuff against the hitters that he actually has to beat.

by Nick Galea on Aug 9, 2010 2:03 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

you are comparing

strikeout pitchers to Porcello though. And neither had a season as ugly as Porcello is having. Bondos 07 comes close but he was still striking people out. And those two kept improving.

I cant imagine Porcello ever repeating 09 if he doesnt K more than 4.5 per 9.

by el duderino on Aug 9, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

When Porcello first came up

I saw him as a Greg Maddux type; not a huge K guy, but a put-it-in-a-good-spot, hit-the-corners, swing-at-MY-pitch, get a ton of ground balls and poor swings kind of guy. Maddux had a tough time his sophomore year, then really turned it around his third season, without ever being sent to the minors. Nothing Rick has done has changed my mind; I still see him with that kind of potential, and I still think he can work this out up here.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

hope you're right

good comparison with Maddux and his k/9 numbers.

by el duderino on Aug 9, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

can we please leave maddux out of, say, any internet debate

The guy was a one of a kind. Because Maddux was able to do something doesn’t mean his name should be brought up every time a contact pitcher is not doing well.

by Kurt Mensching on Aug 9, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

on top of it

maddux struck out more than a batter more per inning than Porcello and he had an FIP more than a run better

by Kurt Mensching on Aug 9, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are those stats for his career

or just the first two years? If those are career stats for Maddux, then it’s not a fair comparison.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maddux rookie year FIP: 3.90, 5.81 strikeouts per nine innings

Porcello: 4.77 FIP 4.69 strikeouts per nine

by Kurt Mensching on Aug 9, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure

that i’m prepared to abandon that hope for Rick. For all the debate, he’s still a huge talent, and I’d like to at least hold out hope that there could be ‘two of a kind’.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you have to be a certain amount of good to improve in the majors?

It’s possible for stuff and command to go from good to great whlie pitching in the bigs, but not from average to good? Why?

I don’t know why we’re penciling Porcello into a 4.5 K rate from now until the end, simply because he might not go to the minors and because that’s what he did in 09. He was 20 in 09. Players get better simply as a function of gaining age, build, strength, etc. That’s why guys have primes and why those are generally between 27 and 30. Why aren’t we affording Porcello that benefit of the doubt?

This is my problem with the article. Kurt did a great job with research and took a lot of time writing it; what I love about this place is that the writers do exactly that. However, I think he takes way too many assumptions in this article and takes them as given. Nothing is ever given when it comes to developing players. And it’s one of the very few instances where I’m going to defer to the organization’s better judgement.

by Nick Galea on Aug 9, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pitchers tend to peak earlier than hitters.

Early to mid twenties. But that’s picking nits. The point is Porcello is not going to have much success at the big league level if he continues to pitch as he has, unless he has the Reds IF defense behind him. Sending him down to completely refine and retool his repertoire is what is needed. He doesn’t need to have Verlander or Scherzer’s K numbers, but it’s really really hard to have sustained success in the bigs if you can’t strike out 6 per 9.

by ChrisDTX on Aug 9, 2010 5:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

But that's my point...

I don’t think Porcello needs to completely retool his repertoire. I think he just needs to keep making adjustments to major leaguers and allow the natural development of his body carry his stuff forward to the point where he will become a very good pitcher. An athlete’s physiology is going to be substantially different from when he is 21 until he is 25.

by Nick Galea on Aug 9, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bless your heart, Nick

this was just the point I was trying to make earlier.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Major league pitchers rarely improve pitches in the majors

They improve their ability to get major league hitters out, but name a guy who has learned a pitch in the majors (other than the cutters that Dave Duncan seems to hand out like candy).

And it’s really tough to develop a new pitch in side sessions or in the offseason (when pitchers shouldn’t pitch) or even in Spring Training, where players have to fight for jobs. You think that players are trying to do well in the minors to get to Detroit? It’s worse in ST.

Your Sabathia example also doesn’t work here. He actually put up good numbers in the majors, just not great ones. He took a step forward. Porcello has yet to take a step.

The truth is that BOTH parts of the equation are needed- honing your stuff (which is better done in the low-stress environment of AAA) and learning to adjust to the major leagues. John Sickels makes this point all the time when talking about the Tigers and their insistence on rushing hitters: every level teaches you something different. Skipping levels is rarely a good idea, and now the only thing we can hope to do is teach him what he needs to know.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sabathia improved all of his pitches in the majors.

And why doesn’t that comparison apply exactly? Would Tom’s Maddux example be more permissible? I don’t really think the Cliff Lee comparison is all that valid, because I don’t think Cliff Lee would’ve been demoted if the Indians were having a different kind of season in 2007. They had to get him out of town because he wasn’t pitching well, and they couldn’t afford to ride him out.

I just don’t buy into the idea that you have to already be good to improve in the majors. If Porcello was horribly ovematched to the point where he couldn’t do anything right, I might be more inclined to agree. But while he’s pitching below average, he’s not getting destroyed nightly. And Porcello DID have a good year in 09.

But we’ll see, because August and September are going to get really low-stress, if they aren’t already.

by Nick Galea on Aug 9, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

He improved something that was already passable

Porcello isn’t even passable.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

His FIP last year was 4.77

His FIP this year so far is 4.68.

How do we define passable?

by Nick Galea on Aug 9, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying that I'm happy with a 4.68 FIP or that he doesn't need to do better.

What I’m saying is, it’s good enough that he can pitch in the majors without being way over his head, and thus, develop in the majors.

by Nick Galea on Aug 9, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

4.5 or something near it

That’s a borderline #3/#4 starter.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

there's scores of pitchers

that don’t improve their stuff in the minors either. sometimes, they just don’t have the ability to, for whatever reason. your examples of lee and halladay could be considered the exceptions that prove the rule, since it seems maybe you have to be truly elite to make such improvements.

by The Fume on Aug 9, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

True

But intuitively it makes more sense to let him experience the development he missed out in the minors.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

we mostly agree here.....

i think he does need to focus on developing that breaking pitch or out pitch, for sure. i don’t think it matters if it’s in the majors or the minors, as long as the priority is on that pitch development and not wins/losses.

either way, because of the lack of SP depth, the team will have to be out of contention if/when that happens.

by The Fume on Aug 9, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know.

Wouldn’t sending him down twice in a year hurt his confidence? Tigers probably brought him back to early but it makes no sense to further harm him by sending him down yet again.

by bezeerk on Aug 9, 2010 2:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Also, as far as complaining about scrapping the curveball

The run values on that curveball last season were atrocious. Plenty of people didn’t think that curveball was any good. I’m not typically one to blindly trust organizations and their personnel, but I think Knapp and co. know what a good curveball looks like.

by Nick Galea on Aug 9, 2010 2:29 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree totally with this article.

A portion of the BYB crew saw (what I think was) Porcello’s last start in Toledo before being recalled, and when I heard he was going back up to the Tigers, I was shocked. Even against Columbus, he was not impressive at all: walked a lot, generally inconsistent, and he just didn’t look comfortable in his own uniform. You’d think that a legit Major League Pitcher would be able to dominate a AAA team (see “Scherzer, Max”), but he was nowhere near that.

And, I will echo others’ comments on here: the 2010 season is a write-off, so get Porcello in the minors where he can learn something, rather than get his ass handed to him every fifth day in games that don’t matter.

by frisbeepilot on Aug 9, 2010 2:52 PM EDT reply actions  

If you want an example, look to our own rotation

Jeremy Bonderman was one of the top prospects his draft year, projected as a #1 starter. Detroit brought him up at age 19, and the rest is history. We had to protect him from losing 20. Then the injuries came. Now we are looking forward to him going elsewhere to free up cash. So much for a projected #1 starter.

Porcello is in the same boat, and if they don’t change course quickly, will hit the same iceberg. It is time to play for a future rotation of Verlander, Porcello, Turner in 2014. Let the kids develop!

by RonK! on Aug 9, 2010 3:03 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't believe that Bondo is a good comparison

Two different types of pitchers, mentally and pitching-type. Bondo came up as a power-pitching, K kind of guy, and basically refused to even try any kind of off-speed pitch, relying on the fastball/slider combination. Unless Porcello is likewise pig-headed about taking advice from coaches who should be able to help him out, I don’t see this as a good comparison.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bonderman is a cautionary tale??

He improved every aspect of his pitching from 2003 to 2006 by a considerable margin. Without spending any time in the minors, he went from being overmatched in 03 (5.56 ERA), to acceptable in 04 (4.89), to solid in 05 (4.57), to well above average in 06 (4.08 ERA), to dominant in the first half of 2007 (3.48 ERA at the all-star break). His FIP and xFIP showed even more dramatic gains over that time. You know how old Bonderman was in 2006? 23 years old. His WAR that year was 6. If the Tigers current plan of development is going to make Porcello a 6 WAR player in his age 23 season, well, awesome, that sounds like a great plan, because 6 WAR players don’t exactly grow on trees out there (Dan Haren is a 6 WAR player, for instance).

Bonderman’s 2007 went off the rails because he had elbow issues. You could blame the Tigers for making him pitch too much at an early age, but that’s more of a pitch count/innings limit thing than a “go pitch in the minors” thing, and the Tigers have been much more careful in that regard with Porcello. And that’s assuming that it’s the Tigers’ fault he hurt his elbow, which may or may not be true: sometimes pitchers just get elbow injuries.

In 2008, Bonderman had his career derailed by thoracic outlet syndrome and the subsequent rib removal surgery that sapped his velocity. That’s a genetic issue that has nothing to do with anything the Tigers did.

So yes, if Porcello suffers an arm injury or loses his velocity after major surgery, that will suck. It will also likely have nothing to do with how much time he spent in Toledo.

by Nick Galea on Aug 9, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

One question

why do they even have the minor leagues at all? You obviously can’t improve down there.

by ChrisDTX on Aug 9, 2010 5:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yeah

The sarcasm font was totally needed there. I was feeling a bit pugnacious. No disrespect intended.

by ChrisDTX on Aug 9, 2010 10:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Sarcasm font needed

But, what some people are saying is that the minors may not always be the ONLY place to develop part of your game.

Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.

by momotigers on Aug 9, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

But it’s the best way to develop your game when you’re struggling in virtually every facet of the game.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, Kurt

Congratulations on this post. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen such well thought-out discussion from so many different posters. this was a really great, great conversation-starter. It’s really cool to see so many Tigers fans with this amount of passion.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 3:14 PM EDT reply actions  

This is my first complete season following BYB.

Is this what happens when 9 games down in August?

Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.

by momotigers on Aug 9, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Usually the Tigers are in it?

How spoiled have we become?

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Spoiled enough

That some people think we’re the Red Wings now.

by handsomerob1 on Aug 10, 2010 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's the AL Central

There’s no excuse for not being in it (except, of course, injuries and a poor upper-level farm system; but who would use that one?)

Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.

by momotigers on Aug 10, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that most of us entered this season with expectations somewhat subdued.

Getting out ahead of the pack for a while surely raised expectations. I, for one, felt right up until the trade deadline that the Tigers had a shot to win their first division title in 23 years. The injuries to Inge, Guillen, and Magglio were devastating, but even then, there was a chance that some of the guys that were putting up solid slash lines in Toledo could step up, and that DD could pull off a deadline deal, mainly to fill Magglio’s spot in the lineup. When that didn’t happen, I pretty much wrote off the season. Not just because of the losing, but because it’s pretty clear now that the Tigers are not a good team, and not really that close to being a contender with the players that we have. Not on the mound, and not at the plate.

The question now is whether DD will alter his methods of acquiring players, and make much better use of the financial resources that he has available to field a contender next season and beyond. We know that he CAN do it. He did it in Florida. He did it in 2006, and almost in 2009, but he has grossly abused the payroll for the past few seasons, since 2006.

Back to the topic of this thread, it’s difficult to see the Tigers contending without Porcello being a major contributor. This season is done. Better figure out what needs to happen to maximize his value from this point forward. Same with Oliver, and Schlereth, and Perry, and…..

If you survived 2003, you can get through this!

by Tigerdog1 on Aug 10, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

a few points

we got excellent value out of bonderman in 2006 and 2007 and until injuries crippled him for the remaining years. i think the downside of rushing him was that it lead to a contract extension a year or two earlier, which flukishly cost us millions.

brandon morrow disagrees with the notion that you can’t figure things out in the majors. it’s a catch-22 with rick: if the team is struggling and W/L doesn’t matter, he can work on his stuff in the majors as easy as in the minors. But if the team is in contention, you need him pitching in the majors because there’s no suitable replacement really.

finally, i look forward to the point where our team is deep enough that we can error on the side of caution with promotions. ala tampa bay.

by The Fume on Aug 9, 2010 3:22 PM EDT reply actions  

And Bondo didn't need a change to succeed in the majors

He still struck out tons of batters and got grounders. Porcello can’t do either right now.

Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys

Daniel Fields is better than you.

by David Tokarz on Aug 9, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's a difference, sure

i don’t think that’s a ‘gotchya,’ end of discussion difference at all though. it’s not that simple.

in an ideal situation, the rotation would be deep enough that rick could work in the minors. i don’t know hardly anybody that would say a year in the minors would hurt porcello. the question is tho what’s best for the team and the organization. last year, it was a great call. this year, not so much.

by The Fume on Aug 9, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, if they put Rick in the minors, I wouldn't complain.

It’s not like it would be bad for him.

My point is that we don’t know it would be good, either.

by Nick Galea on Aug 9, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree

the pro to keeping him in the bigs is helping the team. the downside is he might benefit from a low pressure, longer stint in the minors working on his weaknesses. no guarantee, but hard to see how it would hurt him.

by The Fume on Aug 9, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

The way I see it, the Tigers should at least sign 1 dependable rotation arm.

Kuroda or something. That would push Porcello to 4, Galarraga to 5, with Figaro, Furbush, Oliver, Below, and whoever else knocking on the door. If they had some extra money lying around, they could sign yet another decent starter like Westbrook and be in really great shape, and then you might have a situation where Porcello just goes to the minors because AG or Figaro beats him on stuff and command, and then he can go to the minors because the team is just better, and everyone wins!

by Nick Galea on Aug 9, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure that Rick

would agree that another session in the minors would be ‘low pressure’. For us, sure, but when you’re the guy getting ‘demoted’ (and I’m pretty sure that’s how he’d see it, regardless of what DD told him), I think that would ratchet up the pressure, not down.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know, I have faith in rick

if you’re a 20 year old and stare down Youkalis and hip flip him to the ground, you’re in a pretty good mental state.

Nothing in Rick’s makeup makes me think “weak minded”

by Kurt Mensching on Aug 9, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, as you probably saw in an earlier post

I also have a lot of faith in RP. I think we’re (I’m) maybe losing sight of the big picture. I think the point you’re driving at with the post is more that we (DD/JL) need to take a little deeper breath when looking at the brilliant arms that we’ve been lucky enough (and Illich, rich enough) to draft and sign, and make sure we do as much as possible to prepare them before we send ’em to the major league wolves.

by TigerTom on Aug 9, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

pretty much, yes

The organization seems to have a lot of guys who are hyped as frontline starters who get rushed to the league and never quite turn out. I’d hate to see it happen again.

I think the organization got ahead of schedule with 2006 and we’ve been suffering for it ever since. When they went to the world series in 2006, suddenly they had to go again in 2007. And they were close to the playoffs in 2007, so they had to try again in 2008, and etc.

The result (to me) is that they never quite get the foundation settled. Players keep getting called up too soon (or david would argue, traded). In 2007-2008 tried too hard to get that free agent piece or lock up a player for the next couple of years and we’ve been paying for it since.

So what I’m saying is, porcello looks to me like he got rushed up before he was ready and they really ought to step back and do everything they can to turn him into the player he should have been. So far, it’s obvious what they’re doing at the MLB level isn’t working. Just think if they weren’t fighting for the division in 2009 and had sent him down to get straightened up last summer. Maybe he’s a more complete player today.

by Kurt Mensching on Aug 9, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

don't know if you're saying this, but

calling him up last year was a great move. it should have helped gotten us to the playoffs, if not for a couple fluke metrodome occurrences.

maybe he’d be a better pitcher this year, but so what? he was needed last year as much if not more than he is needed this year.

by The Fume on Aug 9, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like Boston

Deep rotation…options at #5. The team can afford to have Bucholtz in Pawtucket.

Granderson was my Tiger, then Sizemore, then Willis. Since they're all gone, I'm taking Raburn and hoping the pattern holds.

by momotigers on Aug 9, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great Post, Great Comments, Not much to add ...

I say, send him down and ask him if there’s room in his car for Brennan Boesch

Rooting for Tiger stripes, not pinstripes

by JerseyTigerFan on Aug 9, 2010 5:53 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't know who mentioned it above

but if we’re writing off this season, why not have Porcello concentrate on developing his stuff at the big league level? It’s one thing to keep him up here in a tight division race, but if we’ve conceded the fact that we’re not going to the playoffs, why send him down? If he gets shelled up here there are no repercussions other than more naughty words in game threads and a slight (read: nothing to worry about) decrease in the number of butts in seats at the CoPa. Being down this many games should make for as low pressure of a situation as any he will see while in the big leagues.

by handsomerob1 on Aug 10, 2010 9:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Rob, Nick and I

made similar comments yesterday. If we believe that Knapp is the best pitching coach we have, we may as well keep Rick here, for a couple of reasons, including (and most importantly, probably) what you say below. I think there may be less pressure in Detroit, at this point, then there would be in a second demotion to Toledo. Knapp can, theoretically, provide the best possible advice on what to fix and how to fix it, while giving Rick a chance to watch the major league hitters and fill up his scouting book on them (don’t really know if he does this, but it’s nice to imagine so, isn’t it?). Anyway, better coaching, less pressure, better on his psyche, and frankly, from the standpoint of the Tigers, I don’t know that we have a better pitching option down on the farm right now.

by TigerTom on Aug 10, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tigers have a history of rushing pitchers

Who else thinks that this isn’t the first time the Tigers have rushed a pitcher? Look at Bonderman. He started on the Tigers when he was, what 18/19 years old, and has been in the league ever since? It is possible that he would be the same he is now, but if he had the chance to develop in the minors, he could be a dominating pitcher now. I truely believe that he would be more than a 2 pitch pitcher and he would most likely still have his slider. I see the same thing happening to Porcello. If he was on any other team, he would have another year or 2 to devolop and come to the Big Show as a dominant pitcher, but the Tigers will most likely make Porcello into another Jerremy Bonderman in a few years. What a waste of potential.

by meabomb on Aug 10, 2010 1:28 PM EDT reply actions  

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