Tigers rumors: Mark Buehrle on the radar
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 28, 2011 10:55 AM EST
in Detroit Tigers rumors
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Add another name to the list of players the Tigers may have interest in. This time it's White Sox left hander Mark Buehrle.
The Detroit News' Lynn Henning reports the Tigers are in the same boat as about half of baseball in their pursuit of the 32-year-old. You might wonder why the Tigers would be looking at him, given the pitchers they have bubbling up in the system. But really, you can never have enough pitching. It's always good to have a back-up plan in case of injury or have a trade piece available.
Henning writes:
There's no guarantee that young pitchers the Tigers believe are eventually destined for their rotation - Jacob Turner, Drew Smyly, Adam Wilk, Andy Oliver, etc. - will be ready by the end of spring camp.
Turner, 20, was rushed from the minors for a couple of spot-starts last season, but the Tigers expect he will need at least a portion of next year to burnish his command at Triple-A Toledo.
Buehrle's a pretty interesting pitcher when you start to look closer. He tends to have good starts -- especially against the Tigers. He has a career 3.83 ERA with 3.59 in 2011. He's even thrown a perfect game. But he does it without striking out a lot of batters. One thing you can call him for sure is a work horse, as he's thrown 200+ innings every year from 2001 forward.
However, his xFIP (and SIERA) tend to range from slightly higher to a fair bit higher than his ERA on a yearly basis, and you can't even find a good skill or stat to credit for that.
Fangraphs wrote about him earlier this month:
So, uhh, what's left? He's not preventing hits. He's not preventing home runs. He's not stranding runners. How is Mark Buehrle keeping so many runs off the board?
The answer might be that he's not, and a real part of the explanation for Buehrle's gap between his ERA and his FIP/xFIP is actually a bias in how ERA is calculated. As you know, Buehrle is a ground-ball pitcher, and pitchers who put their infielders to work see a larger share of their balls in play result in errors. Errors result in unearned runs, and unearned runs don't count against a pitcher's ERA.
In fact, if we look at Buehrle's career, 10.1% of all the runs Buehrle has allowed have been labeled as unearned. For starting pitchers since 2002 with 1,000+ innings pitched, that's the ninth highest ratio of unearned runs in baseball.
When you adjust for that, his ERA would still be under 4, but it's not quite as good. Just an interesting note and a good reminder to look beyond ERA when looking at a pitcher.
Bonus fun fact I learned from Animal Planet over the weekend: Buerhle raises Vizslas.
OK, so what do you think of the possibility of adding Buehrle?
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It kind of depends on what happens at 2nd and 3rd base. Another ground ball pitcher doesn’t sound appealing if our defense still sucks.
However, it would be a major plus to have a lefty in the rotation and I know this would piss White Sox fans off beyond belief which would put a grin on my face.
Buehrle looks better if we can get starter-level defensive guys at 2nd and 3rd.
Betemit not coming back is a good start.
I live in the Chicago area
and from what I hear, he and his wife have no interest in the Detroit area… Then again money talks…
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Nov 28, 2011 11:35 AM EST reply actions
I think that's the biggest bunch of BS
most guys don’t live in the city they play in…. and even during the season, they’re only in that city half of the time. I don’t think that would keep him from coming to play for us.
No longer the Founder, President and CEO of the Ryan Raburn Fan Club
I'm just saying what I heard.
His wife was adamant about not living in the Detroit area. I’d love for him to play for the Tigers, and I’m getting a lot of play riling up my coworkers about this latest rumor.
My guess is he stays with the White Sox or he goes to the Cardinals.
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Nov 28, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
I agree, and like I said money talks...
But I also expect Buehrle to have a few more options than Damon did.
When Mike Ditka calculates pi it's decimal representation ends.
by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Nov 28, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Can't have too much pitching.
Well, good, reliable pitching, that is. I’m in.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball, and in the end it was the other way around..." Jim Bouton
I wouldn't be surprised
The money is probably more than I think the Tigers should spend on SP given the state of the farm system, but staying in the AL Central makes sense somehow. You often get players that stay in the same division when signing free agent contracts. Perhaps is because the player feels comfortable with either the opponents or the geographic area. Perhaps it’s because the signing team knows that it takes one more variable (competition) out of the equation when determining what you’ll actually get from a player.
I have no idea where he’d slot in our rotation. Probably between Scherzer and Porcello for a nice change of pace. That doesn’t mean he’s a #4, but that’s where I think he’d pitch. Our rotation would immediately become one of the best in the AL; very solid from top to bottom with probably every slot being at least average or better. My guess is that he gets 3yr/45M or more. Are we ready to do that? I don’t know.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
I certainly wouldn't mind it
because our rotation would be absolutely amazing… hell, it might be even without Buehrle.
but to answer the question of what I think the possibility of adding him is: I’d go with 40% at this point. I would just rather see DD go after our areas of weakness rather than add to an area that is already a strength.
No longer the Founder, President and CEO of the Ryan Raburn Fan Club
Ya cuz it was so strong on the 4th/5th day?
Penny was absolutely horrible, the Coke experiement was a total disaster, although he’s descent in the role they originally brought him for, outta the pen, for a couple, maybe 3 innings. We did NOT have a viable LHP period. And Sherzer & Porcello were inconsistent, at best, which is a big reason for their short stint into the post-season. Beyond the odvious & Fister, they could definately use help in the starting rotation & the Bullpen. We could totally use a SLP, not sure what you’re talkin about & they need upgrades in the field, they need to quit relying on unreliable people, who are hurt EVERY year; Guillon,Zumya,Ordonez,& even Inge hasn’t had it since the knee surgeries, we need to get reliable & CONSISTENT guys in there, across the board.
Coke was plagued by bad luck
If you watched his starts prior to his injury, he was pretty good. He kept the ball down and his hits were cheap grounders that a solid infield would have had. After the injury, he seemed different, but up until then, he was serviceable.
Tired of generic music??? Exterminate All Rational Thought is here to help!
look... most rotations aren't strong on the 4th and 5th days
it’s basically do your job, keep us in games and get us back to that front of the rotation. you can’t have studs 1-5.
and it isn’t an absolute requirement to have a lefty starter. would it be nice? yeah, it would be. but that isn’t a reason alone to spend big on Buehrle.
and who are these “Sherzer” and “Guillon” you speak of? Never heard of em…
No longer the Founder, President and CEO of the Ryan Raburn Fan Club
Ya who is Sherzer or Guillon idk
Have no idea unless I was talkin about carlos Guillon & Max Sherzer, has anybody else heard of these guys, Guillon I could understand cuz hardly ever plays. Coke’s no good after like 3 innings regardless of run support, he just seems to lose it by his 4th inning, but he’s good outta the stretch, maybe even a long guy tho he became more of situational guy towards the end there, I’d assume cuz Leyland lost confidence in him, as did I. Ya if you noticed @ the teams that made it the rest of the way, their pitching was pretty solid, I mean Texas odviously had way more depth in their rotation/relief, I mean it was blatendly odvious to me anyways, even if we have the best pitcher in the World. Fister & Papa Grande are no slouches either, but we need to get consistency outta the rest of our guys & ya odviously they showed you don’t have to have a SLP, but is it nice to have? Ya, if a teams stacked with Lefties, it’s nice to have a guy like a CJ Wilson or CC Sabathia, you don’t think those guys benefitted frmo have lefties of that calibur? Buehrl’s shown glimpses of brilliance & should still have a few years left in him.
Still not following with Guillon and Sherzer...
Ohhhhhh that is, unless you are talking about “Guillen” and “Scherzer”…
then I’m right there with ya.
No longer the Founder, President and CEO of the Ryan Raburn Fan Club
Now now...
Let’s not pick on spelling – nobody’s perfect.
by CoreyMichaelDC on Nov 28, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
3yr 45 mil???
Thats a joke rt.??? I’d take Beltran for that kind of money…Bartolo Colon makes sense..3-4 mil gets it done..its not sexy..but its economical
by Wolverine119 on Nov 28, 2011 12:09 PM EST via mobile reply actions
agreed.
I can’t believe I’m actually righting this, but if Buehrle cost 15 mil over 3 years, I think another 1 year deal with Penny(or someone similar) would be a better way to allocate the money.
Tired of generic music??? Exterminate All Rational Thought is here to help!
Ahhhh! Grammar fail!
*WRITING
Tired of generic music??? Exterminate All Rational Thought is here to help!
Not Penny!
Penny should be gone. He just doesn’t have it anymore.
by Avid Reader on Nov 28, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
Uh, Buehrle's estimated worth is around there over his career.
Colon does not make sense and Beltran probably couldn’t be had for that amount. Especially since Buehrle has many other teams interested in him. You have to look at more factors than just: I don’t think he’s worth it because I don’t think he’s worth it.
I have a grand idea: let's win a game.
Depends on what they want out of a pitcher
Turner is close, but still needs some polish and another year in Toledo will do him good. Smyly doesn’t seem anywhere near major league ready so he’s got atleast 1-2 years to season down in AA and AAA.
I don’t think signing a pitcher is a bad idea at all; as long as its not someone who will clog olio the river for the future to come in and I doubt buehrle wants a 1 year deal. But hell, even of they sign a pitcher for a few years, he could possibly be a nice trade peice as long as his contract is friendly enough to move and isn’t ruined by that dreaded no trade clause.
Tired of generic music??? Exterminate All Rational Thought is here to help!
The guy eats innings, and he's a great teammate.
If he expresses any interest in playing for the Tigers, go get him! I’d take him over A-Ram.
I rather have Bedard and take the money get Y Cespedes
That way Turner be called up when Bedard goes on the DL. Use Bedard in the playoff against left hand hitting ball teams once he comes off the DL. If the scout are right than we have a ballplayer in LF with some speed and D. Beside with ten teams acquiring on Buehrle, getting into a bidding war for him is not wise. I would not complain if we can get him for 2 yr contract plus an option. Tigers would be wiser to settle for leftovers in January with the free agency market.
Ehh
It’s not perfect, but I wouldn’t mind.
Can something just happen already?
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
Remember . . .
. . . some of the best moves the Tigers made last year involved deciding not to sign certain players (Adam Dunn, etc.). I don’t want something to happen just for the sake of something happening.
I'm really bored though...
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Nov 29, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
The minor league acquisition didn't get you worked up?!
Haha.
Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Fight!
by Brand New Hero on Nov 29, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
I'm staring down the barrel of 50+ minor leaguers I have to write up
On top of, you know, graduate school. So no.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Nov 29, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
A rotation of Verlander, Buehrle, Fister, Scherzer, Porcello would be excellent. Furthermore, adding another workhorse would be very helpful in that it allow our bullpen to pitch fewer innings, which can only be a good thing considering its relative weakness and lack of depth.
while it would be awesome
you wouldn’t rather concentrate on upgrading our areas of need first?
No longer the Founder, President and CEO of the Ryan Raburn Fan Club
In certain situations, yes
The options for a second or third baseman this offseason are weak. Ramirez could very well prove disastrous, given his age, and there aren’t any other strong options at either positions. The bullpen, meanwhile, is not an area where we need to pursue large contracts in. Furthermore, we do need another starter unless we want to bring up Turner this season, which is not necessarily a strong option at present. Seeing as we’re going to sign a fifth starter in any event, there’s worse ways to spend money than putting together one of the strongest rotations in baseball, especially considering we finished 8th in the AL in Runs Allowed and 4th in runs scored last year. And we can always make a trade at the deadline if necessary.
If he owns Vizslas he is OK with me.
That is Cowboi, my Vizsla in my profile picture.
"But the point is, finger-pointing is just what sports fans do when something doesn't go right." -- Kurt Mensching
by RealityIsOptionable on Nov 28, 2011 1:37 PM EST reply actions
I give absolutely no credence to any story that begins with:
“The Detroit News’ Lynn Henning reports”
"i think it will be mostly feast the rest of the year,"
people have said the same in the past only to have him proved correct
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 28, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
"i think it will be mostly feast the rest of the year,"
by Honeyman on Nov 28, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Perfect.
Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Fight!
by Brand New Hero on Nov 29, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
The unmeasurable skill that Buehrle has
It’s called Deception. Saber-metrics still can’t figure that out.
Buehrle will easily find a 3 year / $42 Million contract, but that’s really just a token bid though. He just completed a 4 year / $56 Million contract and was worth every cent. 4 years / $60 Million would probably be the serious offers, which is exactly what Derek Lowe got 3 years ago. It may take a guaranteed 5th year / $75 Million for the Tigers to land him.
I’d love to have him though. Buehrle’s has a tremendous track record for being a work horse. If the Tigers are going to spend that kind of money on any free agent, this is the guy they should get. I think it would be a rather safe / low risk investment of that $60-75 Million.
I agree.
An innings eater who is remarkable in his consistence would help because it would mean the shaky bullpen isn’t used as much overall.
I have a grand idea: let's win a game.
I can't imagine DD signing Buerhle
All that drafted “power pitching”. DD signing Buerhle would almost be an admission that all of those drafts and going over slot was a big mistake.
I seems to me DDs philosophy(and certainly what he has sold Mr I on)has been draft as much pitching most years as he can and develop a controllable/cheap power staff. Use the left-overs for whatever position players he needs, in trades.
I’d rather have Buerhle than A Ram … but I’d bet both DD and Mr I will want the third baseman.
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
How so?
Just because he signs a left handed starter of Buerhle’s caliber it becomes an admission of a mistake? If anything continually acquiring relievers hasn’t panned out and, going by the assertion you made signing and trading for them must be an admission of mistake. I just honestly don’t believe hubris drives every decision that DD makes.
DD has signed pitcher but not at a premium, but if the opportunity presents itself to acquire Buerhle at a price that is within DD’s acceptable range, I doubt he wouldn’t go through with it.
The biggest thing is that Buerhle almost assuredly won’t sign in Detroit because of the considerable interest he’s drawn. The White Sox banked on a tepid market for him but it seems like there are plenty of options.
I have a grand idea: let's win a game.
It would allow DD to trade away an arm
He could think about trading Turner, Porcello, or Scherzer for a greater need like a 2B or 3B
IMO, Buerhle still has some surplus value at $15 Million a year. He’s just a notch below CC Sabathia in talent, but he’s not going to cost even close to 8 yrs/$182M ($22.75M per year).
and unearned runs
that was a pretty big part of it.
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 28, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
Measuring unearned runs is quite easy.
Even Lynn Henning a caveman can do it.
I like it
We could use a lefty in the rotation and he’s an innings eater for sure. Plus I like the idea of Turner getting more seasoning in the minors. If he advances rapidly maybe we have a little trade bait in Buehrle.
by GoLionsGoTigers on Nov 28, 2011 3:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I'm undecided
Buehrle is a groundball pitcher and Detroit is not a team built for defense, so that could limit his effectiveness. However, I would prefer Buehrle over Penny as our #5, but
Detroit Tigers: 2011 AL Central Champs
Better way to spend the 45 mil.
heck for 45 mil over 3 spend that 45 mil on darvish and cepedes wow now you are getting your monies worth!!! 7.5 mil each for 3 years bet that will get the job done ! if we need to tweak that so be it.
So, you're a gambler
You know what Buehrle will do; he’s done it forever.
Both Darvish and Cespedes are somewhat unknowns. They’ve done well in their respective baseball environments, but it might not translate. Both will probably have an initial culture shock that may affect their performance. I’d love to have both players, but for 45M, with the current state of the team, I think we’d be better suited taking Buehrle’s proven production and assuring ourselves of an outstanding rotation.
Darvish, if he’s posted, will probably cost much more than 45M total. The posting fee alone might be 45M+. The contract will cost an additional amount. From what I hear, he’s probably going to be worth it, but I don’t think the Tigers will be a serious player in that game.
Cespedes, on the other hand, is somebody that would fit well with the Tigers. He would be an immediate boon to the farm system (since I don’t think he’d start the season with the MLB team) and would automatically provide us with another area of strength within the system. Having him as a potential OF to go with Boesch, Jackson, Young, Raburn, and Dirks would make for six guys that have MLB talent and 3 or 4 with very good ceilings.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
At some point
The Yankees will see that Buehrle would be a very good fit for them. I hope they go after CJ Wilson instead.
by manic in Detroit on Nov 28, 2011 8:37 PM EST reply actions
If they were smart
they’d grab one of them. He’d be a great fit for just about any team.
Being the Yankees . . .
. . . they might grab both of them.
*groans*
That would be so like the Yankees.
Transformation of advantages . . .
. . . we used to talk about when I was a serious chess player. Just because our minor league strength is pitching prospects doesn’t mean it’s folly to sign a good free agent pitcher. Sign him, and trade some of those prosepcts to fill the holes in the infield.
+1
Unless you trade Turner.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Nov 29, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
I wish DD would have gone after Freddie Garcia
F Garcia would have been a good fit for one year. Too bad DD probably had a bit of ego involved to go after him because of what happened a few years ago when Garcia was briefly with Detroit.
I'll give DD the benefit of the doubt here
Professional GM’s on the level of DD probably don’t let stuff like that cloud their decision-making. He probably realizes that there are lots of guys like Garcia on the market and he’s waiting to see what develops. NYY is in a situation where they needed lots of starters. They need to start early and sign often. The Tigers need one starter. If a deal presents itself for a better player than Garcia, it will be nice to get the extra production.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Whatever happened to Ben Sheets?
I know he got injured…is he retired? I don’t think he’s under contrsct with anybody.
Is Chris Young through? I know he’s a huge injury risk but couldn’t you sign him to an incentive-laden deal…if he pitches X amount of innings or something?
I would rather see the Tigers try this route along with giving Turner a shot and spend the cash on Cepedes.
"i think it will be mostly feast the rest of the year,"
This would be interesting
Sheets should be ready to pitch this season after missing last season with the injury…same for Young and even Brandon Webb. Bedard and Harden are also out there if you’re really looking for the walking wounded.
None of those guys will probably throw over 80 innings in 2012, but if we’re looking for an arm to start the year so Turner can get seasoning, it might be a good way to go. If we can get through April and May without needing a #5 from within the system, I’m sure somebody among Turner, Oliver, Wilk, Crosby, or Below will be pitching well enough to have earned a shot. If we end up bumbling our way through with those guys, we can start looking for help via trade.
Adding Cespedes would certainly give us some additional trade chips in the OF.
I’d support this angle. We have an outside chance at being pleasantly surprised, health-wise, by a Sheets-esque pitcher. If not, we have a chance at getting one of our young guys in there and I think somebody will step up in 2011. I hope it’s Oliver or Crosby.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Sheets gets hurt too often.
I’m thinking his mechanics aren’t sound.
This Is Unrelated
I just read that the White Sox are shopping Matt Thornton.
I think we should do everything in our power to trade for him, as coupling him with Benoit and Valverde would give us the best 7-8-9 back end in baseball. Coke wouldn’t be the LHP used in high pressure situations, which I would also love.
Meh
I wouldn’t give them much for him.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Nov 29, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'm Not Saying Give Them Turner...
All I am saying is lefty’s that throw 95 MPH, and have set-up man stuff don’t grow on trees. He’s much better than Coke is, at this point, and I think this is the kind of move that makes sense for us.
We don’t need big pieces, just a little re-tooling… this is being lost right now, as the Ramirez talk is driving me crazy!
I say sign Cepades and DeJesus. Trade Young, and a minor league arm, in a deal to ATL for Prado. Trade a minor league arm for Thornton.
This gives us Prado and DeJesus hitting #1 and #2, and Thornton gives us Coke, Al-Al, Thornton, Benoit and Valverde for the 6th-9th innings… and Cepades plays LF for us next year.
A few problems
Young’s name coming up in that Prado deal has been such a curse. Atlanta wants to cut payroll. Trading Prado for Young will increase their payroll. I’m sure they want Boesch. I’m sure that’s too much on our end. Young for Prado is a dead end unless we’re helping their payroll situation in another way. (And Atlanta officials squashed this rumor quickly, btw).
Cespedes isn’t a safe bet to start the season as a productive major leaguer. I’d love to have him, but I see him starting in Lakeland if we sign him. It would be great if his talent translated into results quickly, but until he proves he belongs, we should stay safe for a while.
However, I like both Prado and DeJesus. I’d love to make it happen somehow, but I just don’t think it’s that easy.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
I Agree, In Part..
Notice I listed Cespedes as our LF for next season. I agree, he’s a bit raw now, but we are playing our current CF based on defense alone— Cespedes can do more than that already, even if he may strike out a bunch (a la Jackson).
If not Prado I do still like the options ANA has in their infield as well. I’m not sold on Kelly Johnson honestly, and I’d rather bring in a 3B. I’m not against Chone Figgins either, if he comes on the cheap.
I don’t love DeJesus, but he seems to fit right in hitting second for us…
Possible New Tigers
I think that Mark would b good pitcher for us no matter what his ERA is.Bringing back Laird will b okay if backups Alex cause every Tiger fan knows Laird can not bat.We need a second baseman not third baseman. If we dnt give one of the new guys a shot there or use Rayburn then go get one far as Inge we kept around for reason he struggled at the plate but not 2 many r better then him at that corner.
I don't think Buehrle will be back in Chicago
unless the Cubs manage to sign him. The White Sox seem intent on shedding payroll and rebuilding.
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