Should the Tigers be interested in Martin Prado?
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 4, 2011 4:13 PM EDT
in Detroit Tigers Hot Stove
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PrintOur friend Ian Casselberry is not getting a lot of MLove for his suggestion today that the Tigers make a push to acquire second baseman Martin Prado from the Braves.
Ian cites an article by MLB.com's Braves writer, Mark Bowman, that Atlanta would like to free up some payroll by trading Prado and pitcher Jair Jurrjens.
Ian notes:
Prado is coming off a down year, in which his slash average dropped to .260/.302/.385, the lowest totals of his six-year major league career. Those struggles may have been due in large part to missing six weeks with a staph infection in his right calf. The infection eventually spread to his knee, as well.
Ian bravely wades into the comments to respond to some criticism. I will avoid that part but assume people do not like Prado because of a career-worst season in 2011.
Let's deal with cost first. Prado is arbitration eligible, and MLB Trade Rumors projects a $4.4 million salary in 2012 and (one would assume) more in 2013. Martin Klaassen of Fangraphs writes of the cost of acquiring him:
(T)he main benefit Atlanta can likely expect in return is salary relief and an iffy prospect or two. That is nothing to sniff at for a team with a promising pitching staff, some young talent, and in need of payroll room preparing for another season in which they should contend for the playoffs.
So why should (or shouldn't) the Tigers want Prado?
Prado doesn't walk a lot, but he doesn't strike out much. He doesn't hit for a lot of power either. During a career that has spanned part of six seasons -- playing full-time the past three seasons when not injured -- he has averaged .293 with a .341 OBP and .434 slugging. His wOBA -- remember to compare this number to what would be good on an OBP scale -- is .337 and wRC is 107. So, he's been above average as a batter. He had a .307 average with 15 home runs and an OPS above .800 in 2011.
Of concern to some is that 2011 was his worst year in the big leagues. Due to injuries, he played in just 128 games. He ended with a .260 / .302 / .385 line, .296 wOBA and 85 wRC. Obviously, not the best of results. He was not helped by a .266 BABIP, resulting from a rather awful line drive percentage of 14.6%. Even then, his expected xBABIP was .299. So there was probably a bit of bad luck there.
There was probably some issues due to circumstances, too. For one, due to the trade for Dan Uggla, he was moved off second base and played time at both third base and left field. Depending on the defensive stat of choice, he was either slightly above or slightly below average at both positions. As a second baseman, well, the story's about the same.
And for two, he was injured. He missed six week with a staph infection in his right calf. When he hit the disabled list in June, he was batting .277 with a .761 OPS. After returning, he batted .244 with a .622 OPS. Bowman suggests fatigue may have been a factor as well, since Prado had tried a new offseason workout regimen.
So it doesn't stretch the mind to believe Prado should bounce back in 2012. Can he match his 2010 season? Quite possibly. His numbers were pretty consistent and his average was above .300 in 2008-10. But he does have to change leagues.
So, do you want Prado? And at what cost do you make the deal?
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If only we hadn't
a) Let Polanco walk
b) kept Infante around
… this wouldn’t be a problem. But no one really knew that Sizemore would be such a bust.
I voted in favor of this, but given what’s available out there right now, we’d be better off getting Sweet Lou out of retirement.
Keep in mind Polanco has had an OPS+ of 94 and 85 the last two seasons and the Tigers would never have committed more than two years to him, so we’d still be looking for a second baseman this offseason.
by CoreyMichaelDC on Nov 4, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
He also
…was an All-Star and a Gold Glove winner, albeit it at the hot corner. Maybe we could have put him at 3rd? The guy was the best #2 hitter we’ve had in at least a generation of Tigers baseball. Considering our current options, it’s hard to speculate if we would have retained him after this year. After all, we did give a hobbled Maggs a contract knowing fully well the risks that came with him.
And TigerDog, I know I shouldn’t “should” all over myself, but can we keep the racism to a minimum here? ;)
Calm down, Sparky
No need to start calling comments racist when no one else had a problem with it in the 16 hours it’s been posted. If you have an issue with it, flag it.
I'm just being facetious
I know this is a friendly board. I’m just taking a friendly jab at TD1. Sorry if I came across the wrong way.
Haven't the gold gloves been discredited enough?
I would never cite gold glove winner as proof of defense unless I was an agent.
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 5, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I would hope that our GM doesn't place any value on gold gloves
but we all know about Polly’s defense. The question would be whether he’s still a legit No. 2 hitter, even when healthy. OPS, in any form, is not the stat to measure top of the order hitters. OPS plus is still a stat that favors sluggers over OBP guys. PP helped the offense just by putting the ball in play, and you don’t find that in any of the common stats. DD will make a trade or two for a lead off guy, and for a 2B. Hopefully, he’ll get us a 3B also.
"King of Minutiae"
prado
need someone to hit at the top of the lineup with speed……..reyes or bust…reyes at ss and peralta at 2nd…rather go after jurrgens than prado…phillies already signed thome…last yr rangers signed beltre…if tigers are serious..then prove it and bring in reyes..yanks are gonna upgrade..tigers better do something significant
by paul wall 1962 on Nov 5, 2011 6:26 AM EDT up reply actions
He had a wOBA of .304. His wRC+ is 88.
Austin Jackson’s numbers were better this year(!) and we’re all pretty much in agreement that he’s a bad hitter and shouldn’t be hitting anywhere near the top of the lineup.
By most measures, Polanco’s been a below-average hitter the last few years. The Tigers made a great decision letting him walk.
yes
A terrible season of Martin Prado is still better than a good season from Ramon Santiago
"I'm a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast food" - Ron Swanson
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by rock n rye on Nov 4, 2011 4:35 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Eh, I don't know about that.
Santiago is a pretty consistent 1.5-2 WAR player in part time roles off the bench, which is very nice production. Prado put that much up in twice as many PA this season.
Prado is probably the better player, assuming this is a fluky year (although it wasn’t just BABIP luck as his power declined as well) but I’d rather re-sign Santiago unless we can get Prado for middling crap like what we traded for Delmon, which isn’t likely to happen even though they’re actively trying to get rid of Prado.
by thepartybird on Nov 4, 2011 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
prado
prado is not a base stealer…we need some speed
by paul wall 1962 on Nov 6, 2011 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
Speed does not equal stolen bases
This team with this manager will probably not finish much higher in SB than 25th in baseball. We’re not built that way and Leyland doesn’t like to run much in front of Cabrera and Martinez.
The only way I think we’d see a lot more SB is if we found at #8 or #9 hitter (or moved Jackson down) with very legit speed.
Reyes might get 40 or 50 at leadoff, but I don’t think too many other guys would add a lot of SB to the team. If Jackson ended up hitting #9, I bet he might get a few more.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
I'll take Prado if
He comes with Jurrjens
by BenRoth22 on Nov 4, 2011 4:44 PM EDT via iPhone app reply actions 5 recs
hang on a minute.
Wasn’t Jurrgens on tigers roster not long ago. Coming back completes circle of Life for Jurrgens then.
Overrated free agents Tigers should avoid:
1) Jose Reyes-not worth the money. This guy is good, but not worth wasting $$. Leave it to Red Sox, philies, Angels, Yankees to waste money.
2) Aramis Ramirez-this one is a slam dunk. we tried goin after last trade deadline, he did not want to move. old player and looks more like old Carlos Guillen.
3) Roy OSwalt-Once upon a time…he was awesome. That has passed long ago.Leave it to Nationals to pick up old Philly players.
I think Jurrjens only made
1 start (if any) in a Tigers uniform.
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
A lot of people miss Jurrjens...
But why? Let’s be honest — he’s a slightly worse version of Rick Porcello.
Porcello’s xFIP the last three years: 4.02, 4.24, 4.27.
Jurrjens’s xFIP the last three years: 4.23, 4.29, 4.28
Prado is worth it. Jurrjens probably isn’t.
+1
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
Because Jurrjens was traded and he obviously is awesome since he did well in Atlanta!
I have a grand idea: let's win a game.
I'll take another Porcello for the rotation
or another Max, or another Fister, or another anyone better than Penny
"King of Minutiae"
I had thought the same thing
But hesitated on replying.
Bonus: dry skin won’t be a problem for any of the players.
It depends on the prospects we have to give up.
Also, it would be a small upgrade, but what I really want to see is some more speed for the top of the lineup.
Prado is awesome and I'd love to have him
He’d solve our 2b problems for a long long time.
It would probably cost us Brennan Boesch to get him here, but he’d be so worth it.
Then what happens when Sizemore is injured again?
by jumpsuit on Nov 4, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What happens when Boesch gets injured again
or gets into another 2nd half slump?
The past is past
You got to get the jump on deals that can give surplus value when it’s there.
We done the same thing when we got Carlos Guillen and Peralta.
Everyone was afraid of injury risks when we got Pudge Rodriguez and Magglio Ordonez. DD was smart enough to have out clauses in those contracts though.
Grady Sizemore probably wont get much more than a 1 year or 2 year deal for $6 Million a year.
That's about what I figure
$ 5 mil base plus some pretty good incentives, the biggest one possibly being a vesting option for $ 9 mil based on plate appearances. However, the Tribe may give him that deal, as well.
"King of Minutiae"
Agree, Boesch is our RF for a long time. I do not want to see this kid winning games for anyone but the Tigers. He is one of the guys that the Tigers should be building their team around. Trust me when I say that this kid will be tearing the covers off of baseballs for a while . All the Tigers need to do is find a hitting coach to correct a minor hole in his swing. Look at what the Yankees did for Granderson.
What? Build a park with fences at 200 feet in right?
by frank433 on Nov 5, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Half of Granderson's homers came on the road.
It wasn’t all the Jeter stream blowing out to RF in Yankee stadium.
"King of Minutiae"
Funny how that works
since half his games were at home and half were on the road!
Boesch sounds right.
But I’d like to see them give up Dirks and Raburn first though.
God ain't got no use for a 180 lb bag of sugar.
It probably would cost us
something along those lines. I really don’t know if I’d jump on that one, though. I don’t want to see Brennan go
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
Boesch seems like more than Klaassen thinks it would take
If he thinks it would be salary relief and a couple so-so prospects, I think Boesch would be quite an overpay
by CoreyMichaelDC on Nov 4, 2011 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Boesch, No Way
Raburn, Dirks, & Perry for both of them. Or Raburn or Dirks for Prado, that is all I would give up.
by TigersFan1957 on Nov 4, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
There's no way he'd cost Boesch
Why are people trying to overpay the Braves? Are we just getting used to being screwed?
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Nov 5, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
What ATL wants is a power OF bat
so naturally, BB’s name comes up. The list of such players in the Tiger system is a pretty short one. But the Tigers wouldn’t do that deal anyway. Throw in Jurrjens in the deal and maybe…
"King of Minutiae"
Delmon could be considered a power OF bat
A sign and trade could be arranged maybe. A thought for those who want Boesch to bat 3rd.
by manic in Detroit on Nov 5, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
They'll settle for a relief arm if nobody else makes a good offer
Or we’ll flip them a bullpen piece like Daniel Schlereth and a guy like Ben Guez or Andy Dirks.
And yes, this is one of those situations in which Schlereth/Dirks might get us something.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
I think Prado is a better player than Boesch
But with Boesch we’d be selling high, and Prado we’d be buying low.
Here’s my rundown:
Statistically, career wise, Prado is the better hitter than Boesch.
Prado has a better Avg (.293 vs .269)
Prado has a better OBP (.341 vs .330)
Prado has a better OPS (.775 vs .766)
Prado has a better wOBO (.337 vs .334)
Prado strikes out less (11.3% to 18.5%)
Prado is by far the better defensive player, he can play 3B/2b or even in the outfield.
Prado is 1.25 years older.
Prado’s Salary will be about $3 million greater.
Prado is arb eligible and is Free Agent in 2014. Boesch is pre-Arb and will be Free Agent in 2016.
Both Prado and Boesch had significant injuries.
Prado missed 31 games in May/June due to a staph infection, that required surgery, to his right calf. When he came back from the DL, he struggled with the bat, and he never did get his timing back.
Boesch missed 32 games due to a partially torn ligament in his thumb, which required season ending surgery. Lucky for him, he didn’t have to come back and try to get his timing back.
I don't think the market values Prado =/> Boesch
Boesch has much more value, and the Tigers wouldn’t make that deal, even up.
"King of Minutiae"
Agreed
If Boesch is in the deal, we’d have to get Jurrjens also. That’s not fair to ATL, so the rest of the trade becomes who can supplement Boesch to get Jurrjens/Prado. We don’t have much else unless they are interested in someone like Perry. Maybe AlAl would be worth something.
I don’t see it happening. ATL can probably find better trade mates.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
AARP eligible free agents.
Mike Cameron, Tim Wakefield, Edgar Renteria and Craig Counsell.
Didn't Cameron retire?
I think there was some kind of altercation on a flight.
by thepartybird on Nov 4, 2011 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
If all he'd cost is a fringe prospect or two, then I say 'hell to the effin' yeah!'
I think he’d cost a bit more than the projections above though. I’d take Prado in a heartbeat, especially if it means avoiding signing a type A, like Johnson. I’d be all about this if DD could get it done.
God ain't got no use for a 180 lb bag of sugar.
Agreed....
Two marginal prospects is fine…..but a resounding “NO!” to trading Boesch and/or Raburn for him. Well, maybe Raburn straight up, but would rather let the prospects go first.
by EriePATigersFan on Nov 4, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Raburn probably wouldn't accomplish much anyhow
If the Braves are really doing this for salary relief, they’d probably pass on Raburn’s 2.1M next season. It doesn’t save them as much as getting a player for around 0.5M. They’ll ask for Boesch. We don’t really have much else to offer if they’re looking for young OF power. Clete? Ha.
I’d like to have Prado, but it isn’t worth Boesch.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Prado and what else for Boesch?
How about David Ross? He’s their back-up catcher that is due to make $1.65 Million in 2012.
I'm fairly sure Kelly Johnson is the highest Type B, just for the record.
by thepartybird on Nov 4, 2011 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Never mind, rechecked it.
Never trust fangraphs.
by thepartybird on Nov 4, 2011 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Type A might not matter with the new CBA
The players are trying to eliminate compensation for Type A players in the new deal. I’m speculating that all comp picks would be sandwich round picks, but it’s being negotiated.
"King of Minutiae"
Exactly
Give them a guy like Gustavo Nunez.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
And I want a date with Emma Stone
Your point?
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Nov 5, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they can get a power OF bat for Prado
they should probably just sign Willingham, IMO, but they’re looking to trim payroll just a bit so that they can also sign a SS.
"King of Minutiae"
The tough part
about pulling this off is that Atlanta probably won’t be looking for any pitching prospects, being that they have the best farm system in baseball in terms of pitching. Obviously, our system’s strongpoint always has been pitching, and that’s generally what we use to acquire players. It would be tough to work out said deal based off these facts.
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
I don't want Jurrjens back.
Maybe I should say, I don’t want to trade prospects (or Porcello or Boesch or whoever) for Jurrjens when he hasn’t been consistently healthy since, like, 2008.
His peripherals are always pretty shaky too.
Maybe he’s a Matt Cain type that consistently outperforms his peripherals, but it’s more likely that he’s not.
by thepartybird on Nov 4, 2011 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I had a little back and forth with Danny Knobler on twitter about this
I suggested the Tigers get in on Prado. He says for whom?
I mentioned either Boesch, Raburn plus a prospect or, if the Tigs sign a SS, then Jhonny.
The Braves are said to want salary relief so they can go after a SS, and a power bat for the OF. DK says the Tigers would never give up Boesch.
Then, I read the Fangraphs article. The suggestion there was that Prado’s value might be around what KC got for Callaspo, i.e. a couple of prospects. If that’s the case, I’d be all over it.
I’d love to have Prado. I’d do the Raburn plus a prospect deal in a heartbeat. I’d only trade Boesch if Jurrjens or another player that fills a position of need were added. Prado can play 2B or 3B. That’s half the lineup issues solved. He’ll bounce back from his off season, and Atlanta is selling low on him.
Git r done!
"King of Minutiae"
Selling low
If we could get Prado for just iffy prospects, I’ll be dancing. I’ll be break dancing and doing head-spins.
If we could get Prado for lets say Daniel Schlereth, that would be better than the Polanco for Urbina deal we made several years back.
KC was talking about Lorenzo Cain
but that was for Jurrjens. The Braves offered Prado but wanted Will Myers, a real top hitting OF prospect. I don’t think that “iffy” prospects will get this done, but maybe an Andy Oliver, Avisail Garcia or something. Maybe Raburn plus a prospect?
"King of Minutiae"
Gzzz
Wil Myers? That’s not a good sign. They’re gonna want Turner. The interesting thing is that they’re probably not going to want pitching prospects since they’re so stacked in that department.
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
Schlereth and Nunez
Or even better: Schlereth and Iorg. My head would asplode.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
If not Boesch, then what other inexpensive OF with some pop do we have to put in a deal?
Avisail Garcia?
"King of Minutiae"
Okay
There’s a big difference between Boesch (solid regular) and Garcia (prospect in Hi A). One has SIGNIFICANTLY more value. Stop trying to overpay.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
He stands in the OF
Sure as hell doesn’t play there.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
people need to stop suggesting Strieby as a trade chip
nobody wants to take our garbage
No longer the Founder, President and CEO of the Ryan Raburn Fan Club
I would not call him garbage
Maybe I just get sort of attached, following a player’s career in the minors for several years, but Strieby is a solid hitter that has battled a rash of injuries. He’s finally had a full season and his numbers are pretty good. He’s positionally challenged in that he can only play one position, and the Tigers are set at that position for several years. Two if you include DH, and we’re all set there, too. He has limited value because of injuries, but I’d still like to see what he can do, given a chance. We just don’t want to envision the horror of circumstances that would create such an opportunity for Strieby.
MiLB.com has this on Strieby, Tigers Minor League All Star Selections, 2011
First base — Ryan Strieby, Toledo (130 games): Strieby led all Tigers Minor Leaguers with 19 homers this season, and he ranked second in the organization with 76 RBIs. The 26-year-old Washington native played in 76 Triple-A games in 2010 in his first spell with the Mud Hens before injuries cut his season short. He looked comfortable with the demands of a full-season workload this year. His 171 strikeouts were the most in the International League, but that’s not something that concerned Toledo skipper Phil Nevin.
“He’s got big-time power,” Nevin said. "This year, the best part was that he stayed healthy. He’s had wrist problems and injuries, and the fact that we had him healthy was big for us and big for him. A couple months into the season, he was finally able to trust his wrist. He had a stretch there [for] about a month-and-a-half where he was one of the best hitters in the league. He carried us in July. That was our best month and he was a big part of that. I think we won 22 or 23 ballgames and as he went, we went.
“I think there’s a lot more in there and he’ll hit for more power. He’s capable of hitting a heck of a lot more than 19 home runs. For a big guy he has great hand speed and hand-eye coordination. He’s just got to learn to trust himself as far as how good of a hitter he can be.”
"King of Minutiae"
I suppose that I should post the link for that
Some of the names on this “All Star Team” say more about the lack of talent among position players in the organization than anything else. This “team” is very top heavy, and the better talent in the organization is clearly at the lower levels. Strieby, Douglas, Ciriaco, even Timo Perez…. c’mon, man. Not exactly the future stars of the organization.
"King of Minutiae"
Role players
The organization gets knocked a lot because we haven’t produced All-Star position players lately (yet critics tend to ignore Avila, and Boesch had a couple of all-star caliber halves).
I can see this point of view, and there aren’t any All-Star position players on the horizon until you get to Casetllanos (and he’s a long ways away.)
However, the system does have it’s share of guys that can contribute to a major league club. The names on your list could step in and contribute. I think we produce lots of 1.5-3.0 WAR sort of guys.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Trading for another Braves middle infielder?
Didn’t really work out too well the first time, can we at least avoid deja vu?
Fan of the Detroit Tigers, Lions and Red Wings.
2nd time is the charm
Exhibit A: the Fister trade
"I'm a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast food" - Ron Swanson
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by rock n rye on Nov 4, 2011 5:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
So many problems with such a small post
First, Jurrjens is probably better than everyone in our rotation except JV and Fister (if he can stay healthy). Even if you rank Scherzer and Porcello ahead of him, I think we can still “find him a spot” since we don’t have a #5 right now.
Second, you didn’t mention a single player of value to Atlanta. Freddy Freeman is twice the player that Streiby is, so I dont’ think Atlanta is interested in Streiby. Fields has almost no value after his disaster 2011. He’s got tools, but clubs aren’t willing to take guys on tools alone when they are trading a commodity with value.
The Braves COULD use some RP to lighten the load on Kimbrel and Venters, but RP is certainly not a position of strength for us. Coke might have some value…
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Sorry for such a small post, i had to finish a paper.
This is all assuming the braves want around what KC got for Callaspo
No doubt that Jurrjens is a very good pitcher and i think youre right in saying better than scherzer and porcello (close because being healthy is part of being good), but at what cost? they dont want starting pitching so who can we give to get him other than more position player prospects of whom we dont have enough.
Sure, Fields had a poor year, but he has good tools and is very young. I would be fine with trading Danny Vasquez instead ifyou think he has more value. But really the only players we have that fit a position of need for them that have any value are Fields, castellanos, and vasquez.They dont want Rayburn cause he is essentially a worse version of Prado. The only way i see Boesch as being worth it is if we get Heyward back. If we did i would be ok with trading castellanos, oliver (or crosby), boesch, schlereth, and fields for Heyward, Prado, and Jurrjens (or a good 2B prospect if they have one). There is almost no chance of this happening.
I was thinking Perry or Schlereth would be acceptable options as a RP. Both have tools the Braves obviously dont need a closer or setup guy. They seem develop relief pitchers well.
by jonathan.onne on Nov 4, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
This is the type of deal I would like to see done.
Very weary of trading top prospects or especially BB or Porcello whom I could see either one haunting us for a long time.
Yeah...maybe I'm a homer...
But I would hope that either Porcello or Boesch demand more than Prado.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Not a homer. Sounds about right.
BBBBUUUUUUTTTTT…..boesch isn’t exactly a finished product yet. And if he is, then he’s not worth as much as many believe. I do agree he is an interesting talent and could possibly be that vaunted after left handed bat tha every team craves. Or he could be Raburns missing first half and be a second half slumper. Hes a real toss up, and Prado wouldn’t exactly be that bad of a return. I hope he stays, but it wouldn’t be the worst return. You gotta trade talent to get talent and Prado isn’t exactly a slouch.
Having said that, I feel that DD could get this trade done with Raburn(eat most/all the salary) or Raburn and dumpster fire schlereth(eat little of raburns salary)
God ain't got no use for a 180 lb bag of sugar.
Boesch =/= Raburn
The second half that Boesch had last year was not because of a batting slump it was because of a nagging thumb injury that became progressively worse. With some a rest period though that is an injury that will completely heal, so it isn’t like he’s injury prone. Boesch and Porcello are both the type of players that have alot of potential and are right at the point in their career where they are on the verge of a break out season with many years ahead. The only way I trade them is if I receive someone like a Alex Gordon or Howie Kendrick in return.
Can we just trade Strieby for a ham sandwich so people will stop talking about him as trade bait?
by thepartybird on Nov 4, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Amen
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
gotta be worth a monte cristo
or maybe a reuben.
THINK OF THE POTENTIAL!
by GreatGooglyMoogly on Nov 5, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Still grouchy about Smoltz?
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
by momotigers on Nov 4, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm grouchy about Rentaria
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
First trade with Seattle = disastrous
Second trade with Seattle = glorious
First trade with Atlanta = disastrous
Second trade with Atlanta = ???
What is the time window on this anyways?
As I recall, the Carlos Guillen trade was epic, and we even ended up getting Santiago back.
haha I forgot about that one
Anderson couldn’t play a lick, but man could he run!
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
Polanco
People still talk about Polanco like he’s god. Look at the two years of Philly stats, I say Tigers let him go at the right time. He’s even more Punch and Judy than before.
I agree
Polanco might of won another gold glove, but he surely didn’t deserve it due to the fact that he missed 40 games. He really wasn’t any better than Don Kelly after his red hot start in April.
Latest on Prado from Rotoworld
Bob Dutton of the Kansas City Star writes that trade talks between the Royals and Braves regarding Jair Jurrjens and Martin Prado have “stalled.”
The two sides were discussing Jurrjens, but after the Braves offered also offered Prado, the Royals refused to give up both Lorenzo Cain and Wil Myers in return. Dutton writes that they appear willing to part with the 25-year-old Cain, but not the 20-year-old Myers, who is considered one of the most promising hitting prospects in the sport. It’s still very early in the offseason, so we expect talks to continue at some point.
The Tigers really don’t have the power bat that the Braves would like other than parting with Boesch, and I don’t think they’ll do that. Equivalent of Myers isn’t in our system. He’s a top five- nationally, ranked outfield prospect. Equivalent of Cain? He’s a CF with a .312 .380 .497 .877 with 16 HR, 81 RBI at AAA last year, but the power was a sudden awakening thing. Maybe Dirks?
"King of Minutiae"
it doesn't surprise me that the braves would start off asking for the world
it’s where they finish up that counts
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 4, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. Plus that could just be a counter offer, adding Prado, because Cain wasn't enough for JJ
We really don’t know. My sense is that Prado has more value than the prospects that the Royals received from LAA for Callaspo, but not a stud prospect like Myers.
"King of Minutiae"
to be fair
It is Dayton Moore. They would be fools not to try to exploit his fetish for Braves past and present
"I'm a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast food" - Ron Swanson
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by rock n rye on Nov 4, 2011 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Combination of two of the following: Worth, Raburn, and maybe a young prospect?
Definite maybe on that. Or put someone like Wilk or Villareal, worst case, in that young prospect spot. Definitely worth a think, anyway.
by knucklescarbone on Nov 4, 2011 10:33 PM EDT reply actions
Absolute NO on trading Boesch.
BB has what it takes to be an all-star at some point, plus the Tigers are not as deep in the outfield as they were this time last year (no Casper, likely no Maggs, add Delmon but he only replaces Maggs in terms of last year’s off-season roster). Dare anyone utter the words “Clete Thomas”?
by knucklescarbone on Nov 4, 2011 10:38 PM EDT reply actions
Clete Thomas isn't going to the show any time soon.
If there’s an injury, Kelly is a plus (maybe even plus plus if you trust UZR samples) defender in the OF.
by thepartybird on Nov 4, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, you dared.
I am a Kelly fan (gave him a B in the poll). JL is right about his value to any team.
by knucklescarbone on Nov 4, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, in 2010
Then this year he was really awful.
by thepartybird on Nov 5, 2011 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks to a staph infection
He had a .309 batting avg over 3 prior seasons. He’s one of the better hitters in the game. He just had some bad luck run his way.
I'd bet the over on Prado
In six years, last year was the outlier. I’d bet on a nice rebound.
"King of Minutiae"
And also a definite NO on going after Grady Sizemore.
Haven’t the Tigers spent enough time dragging around a highly-paid convalescent list?
by knucklescarbone on Nov 4, 2011 10:43 PM EDT reply actions
And I also disagree here. Sizemore will be anything but highly-paid.
If he makes anywhere near what Maggs made last year before incentives, I will my absolutely shocked.
by thepartybird on Nov 4, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, if you could get him for less than what Maggs was making, probably worth a shot.
I was thinking he would be able to demand much more. As noted, we’re not real deep in the outfield, and a healthy Grady is an upgrade from Delmon, both ways, if you slotted him in left.
by knucklescarbone on Nov 4, 2011 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Grady had a cover article in SI a couple of years ago.
“WHY SIZEMORE MATTERS.” That has to be worth a mil. right there.
by knucklescarbone on Nov 4, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Most likely going to get less than Maggs made.
Indians just declined his option for 9M and bought it out for 500K.
by thepartybird on Nov 4, 2011 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't Rod, Mario and JL all have offspring in the Tigers' org.
Maybe trade all three of them for Prado. Take care of the nepotism thing at the same time.
by knucklescarbone on Nov 4, 2011 10:47 PM EDT reply actions
They were drafted, but not sure they were signed
I think Rod n Mario’s kids are going to school. Patrick Leyland is a catcher in the minors.
"King of Minutiae"
Would not include Kaline's grandson in the deal.
Too good of genes to throw away.
by knucklescarbone on Nov 4, 2011 10:48 PM EDT reply actions
They'd probably ask for Avila too.
Pass :)
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
I think the
overwhelming argument should be this. The fact that a lot of MLive posters don’t like it, should be reason enough to do it. Haha.
detroitbaseballpage.com
Alright, let's drop some reason into this thread
I think Prado would be a fantastic upgrade to our current 2B situation, given the right price. Would I throw Boesch into a package for Prado and Jurrjens? You bet your Tiger-lovin’ ass I would. I didn’t respond to the good sir/madam above that subtly compared Boesch to Jason Heyward, but no. Just, no. As much as I like watching him play and believe that he would be a good fit as our right fielder, Boesch is expendable because the open market dictates that (all aboard the Grady Sizemore bandwagon?). Shoring up 2B with a solid player like Prado (WHO IS ONLY 28 YEARS OLD, LEST WE FORGET) is worth having an open spot in the OF for the time being.
Prado’s 2011 season is worrisome, but at the same time is somewhat irrelevant because staph infections are nasty beasts to get rid of. There’s no telling how it affected the early part of his season where he hit around .270 and OPS’d almost 100 points lower than his 2008-10 numbers. He probably won’t be the monster that he was in 2010, but he will be a definite upgrade over the Benny-Hill-music-inspiring revolving door that was the Tigers’ 2nd base position in 2011.
by Rob Rogacki on Nov 5, 2011 9:57 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
this is the sort of common sense we could all use.
there is nothing of value at 2B this year, and we’ve got nothing in the pipeline. snagging Prado – who is both young-ish and position-flexible – is a brilliant idea. so much so that we’re gonna have to trade quality for quality because the Braves know what they’ve got.
what does that mean? probably a young, power-hitting OF, if the reports of the discussion with the Royals are true. for us, that sounds a lot like Boesch. don’t get me wrong, i’d hate to see him go; those towering HR’s are awesome and i like his gun. a little coaching and he could be throwing runners out all over the basepaths.
BUT – it’s a lot easier to replace a corner OF, even when that corner OF is a power-hitting lefty with a handful of timely steals every year, than it is to find a solid 2B.
do i like Boesch for Prado? no, because i like Boesch too much. do i think it would help the team? almost certainly.
by GreatGooglyMoogly on Nov 5, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec's for common sense
There are outfielders available. There are few, or no infielders available at the positions where the Tigers need them. If the Tigers whiff on Prado, lordy knows what we’ll wind up with. Make a run at him.
"King of Minutiae"
I personally would like Prado to play 3rd
with the Raburn/Ramon platoon at 2nd
No longer the Founder, President and CEO of the Ryan Raburn Fan Club
Don't know why you'd platoon them.
Isn’t Ramon much better against lefties?
by thepartybird on Nov 6, 2011 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you nailed the problem there
it seems like a ramon/raburn platoon should work due to the handedness. but (in limited sample) ramon hits lefties better.
maybe a first-half second-half platoon! ramon always falls off after the all star break!
by Kurt Mensching on Nov 6, 2011 8:54 AM EST up reply actions
boom goes the dynamite
thank you for injecting this thread with some sanity
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
Braves want a young, power hitting outfielder?
Hopefully, they were watching the ALCS.
Sign Young to his option. Trade him and Garcia to the Braves for Prado. Young is still, well … young.
Sign Grady for less guarateed money(but higher incentives)than Young would have cost us.
We get Prado and Sizemore for basically the payroll cost of Young.
Sizemore, Prado, Boesch in front of Miguel would be a serious upgrade.
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
They want payroll relief as well
Young is anything but payroll relief for a team looking to unload a 2B that will make around $4 million next year.
Ooopps
Never mind
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
So pay the man his wages and toss in a new set of samsonite luggage for the trip to Atlanta
"King of Minutiae"
Good idea, but
Once we pay Young his 6.5M next year and Prado’s 4M, we’re at 10M for a 2B and still have a corner OF spot to fill. I’ll cross my fingers for DeJesus at 5M and now we’re really just better at 2B for 15M. That’s not good.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Thinking more to myself
Heck, even if we trade a cheap player, like Boesch, we need to fill RF and it will cost 5M+ on the free agent market to do that, plus Prado’s salary.
So, trading for Prado will end up costing us 10M for 2B if it includes Boesch. If we think creatively on the free agent market (Rollins, for example), we might get as much value for 3 years by adding another 10M.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Two proposals to get Prado: 1 Trade Delmon (Braves want power outfielder); then sign Grady; 2 Trade Austin Jackson and sign Grady.
A Quote From Another Web-Site
http://motorcitybengals.com/2011/11/04/tigers-potential-trade-target-martin-prado/
Negatives:
Value. Prado’s ability to hit, and his ability to play multiple positions at a relatively cheap price means he is going to have some value on the market. There is also going to be some competition as well, more than likely driving the price up. I am not sure the Tigers would be able to give the Braves fair value here.
Power pitching. This one is a little concerning, and I am not sure that I have come across this with a hitter before, but Prado has big time issues with good fastballs. I felt that way watching him, and then checked the statistics, and they bear this out. Prado hits just .215 against power pitching, which are in the top 1/3 of strikeouts plus walks. The one good thing about that is, playing the A.L. Central, most of the power pitching in the starting rotation resides in Detroit.
That negative
Plenty of hitters don’t fare well vs power pitchers.
Ramon Santiago .208
Scott Sizemore .210
BJ Upton .219
Nelson Cruz .229
Curtis Granderson .230
David Ortiz .231
Brett Gardner .232
Chase Headley .233
Alberto Callaspo .234
Torii Hunter .236
Adrian Beltre .238
Maicer Izturis .240
Kelly Johnson .240
On the flip side, Prado hit .326 vs Finesse pitchers.
Not just plenty, I would say the majority, considering strikeouts cut batting averages by definition..
Even considering BABIP rather than pure average, pitchers with higher strikeout rates can be expected to have lower BABIPs according to SIERA (which is more predictive than FIP/xFIP/the like)
by thepartybird on Nov 6, 2011 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Granderson's Batting Average Against:
Joe Nathan = .421
Mariano Rivera = .400
Roy Halladay = .375
C.J. Wilson = .308
Roger Clemens = .300
Jered Weaver = .286
Joakim Soria = .286
Ubando Jimenez = .286
Doug Fister = .286
Phil Coke = .286
Felix Hernandez = .273
Curt Schilling = .273
Josh Beckett = .242
Edwin Jackson = .222
Max Scherzer = .214
Justin Verlander = .200
Just to name a few. You say his average is .230 against power pitchers. I see he batted under .230 against only 3 of these names and way over .230 against 13 of these names.
by TigersFan1957 on Nov 6, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
I certainly didn't make it up
Here’s a link to Granderson’s splits- baseball reference
Ortiz's Batting Average Against:
Edwin Jackson = .450
Jered Weaver = .324
Mariano Rivera = .333
Joaquin Benoit = .300
Barry Zito = .294
Justin Verlander = .278
Roy Halladay = .273
Felix Hernandez = .261
C.C. Sabathia = .250
Cliff Lee = .240
Joe Nathan = .222
Scott Kazmir = .189
Roger Clemens = .185
Doug Fister = .182
Randy Johnson = .160
You said his average was .231 against power pitchers. I see 5 this time under that number and 10 above .231. For the complete list of pitchers he has faced please check out this site.
by TigersFan1957 on Nov 6, 2011 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
With this and the rest of them
Just look at baseball reference’s career splits for each player. Scroll down and they’ll have a section for vs power, vs avg, vs finesse.
If
a batter faces a pitcher once in his career chances are his average will be much lower than if he faces a pitcher many times. Granderson has faced over 500 different pitchers less than 10 times in his career. 150 pitchers total that he has faced only once. How many of these 500+ pitchers are concidered Power Pitchers & How many of the 150 pitchers are concidered Power Pitchers? The pitchers I posted are power pitchers that he has faced many, many times over his career.
by TigersFan1957 on Nov 7, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
Then why did quote Prado's avg vs power pitcher?
I was just posting the exact same stat that you posted for Prado.
Prado is a yes for me
But Boesch is too much to give up. If you can do one of those ridiculous proposal like Raburn/Perry and Santos for Prado jump on it. But I don’t think that’s direction Atlanta wants to go. Sounds like they want a power hitting outfielder.
This one won’t happen
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