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Doug Fister, The Man Rick Porcello Should Aspire To Be.

Promoted because we're big fans of Mr. Poopz -- Kurt

Doug Fister showed up in a Tigers uniform and quickly became a fan favorite. His numbers (despite his W-L) were beautiful, but Dave Dombrowski stole him from the Mariners for a very reasonable price. When he came to the Tigers he went from a bit of an unknown to becoming the Tigers #2 starter. Had Verlander pitched even a bit worse, he probably would've been the ace of the Tigers second half.

Rick Porcello showed up this season about 5 years younger than Doug Fister, but having approximately about the same amount of MLB experience. Porcello didn't get the luxury of much minor league experience. He pitched his first major league game at the age of 20, an age where most kids are going to school and not going to bars.

But despite the difference in experience and age, their games are essentially the same.

Doug Fister

Year Tm PA HR% SO% BB% XBH% GB/FB LD% HR/FB DP%
2009 SEA 256 4.3% 14.1% 5.9% 9.8% 0.67 22% 10.0% 15%
2010 SEA 720 1.8% 12.9% 4.4% 6.5% 0.87 22% 4.8% 14%
2011 TOT 875 1.3% 16.7% 4.2% 6.4% 0.90 20% 3.5% 12%
3 Seasons 1851 1.9% 14.9% 4.5% 6.9% 0.85 21% 5.1% 13%
MLB Averages 2.6% 18.4% 8.5% 7.6% 0.80 19% 7.5% 11%

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 12/13/2011.

Rick Porcello

Year Tm PA HR% SO% BB% XBH% GB/FB LD% HR/FB DP%
2009 DET 720 3.2% 12.4% 7.2% 7.1% 1.21 19% 10.0% 20%
2010 DET 700 2.6% 12.0% 5.4% 6.4% 1.01 19% 7.1% 15%
2011 DET 784 2.3% 13.3% 5.9% 7.7% 1.14 16% 7.2% 16%
3 Seasons 2204 2.7% 12.6% 6.2% 7.1% 1.12 18% 8.0% 17%
MLB Averages 2.6% 18.4% 8.5% 7.6% 0.80 19% 7.5% 11%

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 12/13/2011.

The charts above are ratio charts that give insight into how Fister's and Porcello's pitches end up. We can see consistently that their numbers are not all that different. They induce ground balls, get similar amounts of strike outs, walk at similar rates...but the truth is that in almost all the categories listed above, Fister is the superior pitcher. The differences are slight, but they add up. The only real advantage Porcello has on Fister is that he has a consistently better DP%.

But can marginal differences in these ratio's really create such a difference between the two players? The answer is apparently yes. FIP wise Porcello was at 4.06 and Fister was at 3.02. Quite a difference and some how Doug Fister creates it. So we have two new questions, what is the difference between these two players and what can Rick Porcello do differently to further himself as a MLB pitcher? The exploration after the jump.

Star-divide

Now normally I'd whip out a bunch more charts for you guys to look at, but in this instance the raw data speaks for itself in the difference between these two pitchers.

Velocity wise we once again see that if you were looking at these numbers, you couldn't tell Rick Porcello apart from Doug Fister. They top out on their fastballs at about 90mph and their off speed pitches all tend to be anywhere from 75-85mph. So obviously Doug isn't over powering Rick in anyway.

But we're looking for differences and again they are occuring in the ratios, and this time the ratios are those in how much they throw their pitches. First off, Fister prefers his four seam fast ball. Rick prefers his 2-seamer. But they both throw their preferential fastballs at similar rates. But at this point the similarities seem to stop. Rick is essentially a 3 pitch pitcher: Fastball, slider, changeup. Doug Fister has four. He includes a curveball into his repotoire.

Normally I don't put much stock into a single pitch, but pitch values give us an idea as to how effective these pitches are. Value wise Rick had one above average pitch last season, and that pitch was his slider. Fister had three. His curveball, fastball, and changeup where all effective for him. Now historically Rick has had an effective fastball in the previous two seasons, so I would expect his fastball to regain effectiveness this upcoming season automatically giving him two effective pitches. But two pitches pitchers are what I call short inning relievers and I don't want them starting.

Now Fister's and Porcello's pitches experience similar spin angles and similar spin rates, signifying that they move similarly, meaning that there is one more thing to talk about and that is that distribution of pitches I was talking about earlier.

One key thing that Fister does as a pitcher is distribute his pitches well. This is a confidence thing and an intelligence thing. He establishes his fastball first and foremost, but then he works in all his off-speed pitches without truly favoring one over another. This is deceptive and it keeps batters on their toes. Porcello is almost opposite. He establishes the fastball, but essentially only works in his slider. Yes it's an effective pitch, but when you are only intermittently throwing a change-up along with it, you become a bit predictable. One hung slider can blow open a game for the opposition.

But Rick Porcello isn't stuck. He's still young and capable of learning just a couple more things. If he can establish more confidence in his change-up while increasing it's effectiveness and throwing it more throughout a game, he can establish himself as a more effective pitcher. Down the road if he can further develop the curveball he's already been trying out, than you never know, we may have another Fister on our hands.

So final advice for Rick, practice makes perfect.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.

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"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

Contributor, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Dec 14, 2011 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

You mean Rick Porcello isn't going to turn into Greg Maddux?

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

Contributor, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Dec 14, 2011 12:11 AM EST reply actions  

Nice article and I completely agree about what Rick needs to do

One difference I just noticed between Rick and Doug are the GB/FB ratio’s.
Porcello is a ground ball pitcher with a 1.12 g/f ratio.
Fister looks to be more of a fly ball pitcher with a 0.85 g/f ratio.

For some reason I thought Fister was a ground ball pitcher.

by Keith-Allen on Dec 14, 2011 12:13 AM EST reply actions  

the differance

seems to be in the K% 2% more for THE FIST, leads to not as many in play. I think that leads to a bit more success

The problem with winter sports is that - follow me closely here - they generally take place in winter.

by J_WoW on Dec 14, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

What I noticed is that Doug has improved and Rick hasn’t. Doug has better command, a curve ball and a slightly better change. It doesn’t hurt that he keeps his fielders on their toes and hitters confused by working so quickly.

Rick is stronger as he started out topping out at 95 and periodically he’ll hit the high nineties with his rarely seen four seamer. I think he only throws it when he feels very strong. Rick could improve if the Tigers would encourage him to build up and throw more four seamers rather than worry that bulking up adds speed and hurts movement on this two seamer.

Any pitcher can throw a fastball with more spin and a little less speed. The Tigers need to take the governor off of Porcello and let him build up and throw high heat too.

by Fred Gladding on Dec 14, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

"He's just a boy!"
What I noticed is that Doug has improved and Rick hasn’t.

I think this is where Rick’s young age comes into play. Fister’s older, and presumably wiser; given a similar set of skills, it’d make sense that the minor league experience he had would give him an advantage. I’m not saying a young pitcher can’t have fantastic stuff and smarts, but when the league figures you out, how do you adapt? Doc Gooden didn’t, and his astronomical early start evaporated (but, then again, he had bigger problems).

And yes, I stole my subject line from Finding Nemo.

by frisbeepilot on Dec 15, 2011 7:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm concerned about Fister's HR/FB.

Fister has both a higher fly ball rate and line drive percentage over Porcello, yet kept the ball in the park with phenomenal consistency. 3.5% HR/FB doesn’t seem career-sustainable.

by lesmanalim on Dec 14, 2011 12:13 AM EST reply actions  

Fister has had a pretty consistent LD rate...

but his HR/FB rate has been trending downward. And if there is a jump back up, I’m honestly not that worried about it as long as it doesn’t jump back up more than a couple percentage points.

by madpoopz on Dec 14, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

How they're different

Rick (12.4%) and Twisted (12.7%) threw nearly the same fraction of changeups for the Tigers in 2011. But using linear weights for the seven Tiger pitchers with at least 40 IP who used a changeup, Rick suffered by far the worst per pitch changeup results and Twisted enjoyed by far the best. This helped dictate Twisted’s extraordinary .196/.220/.288 batting line against LHB with Detroit and Rick’s less-than-ordinary .321/.368/.488.

by GWilson on Dec 14, 2011 12:30 AM EST reply actions  

ratios show usefulness but not effectiveness.

the spin rate shows that Fister CH probably achieves more movement.

Porcello’s isn’t far off, but probably won’t ever be as effective. The numbers do tell me that his curveball has potential and that might be a better pitch to focus on. But seeing as he is more comfortable and familar with a CH than I’d like to see him try to develop that pitch a bit more first.

by madpoopz on Dec 14, 2011 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

baseball-reference does my friend. :)

I cannot except credit when all I had to do was push a couple of buttons.

by madpoopz on Dec 14, 2011 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

*accept, not except :)

Also a fan of the Rays and Lightning.
There is no offseason.
My icon was drawn by Samara Pearlstein, talented artist/blogger at Roar of the Tigers.

by Tigers&WingsFan on Dec 14, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Where do you find the spin rates at?

I heard before that Verlander’s curve ball has the best spin rate. I was just wondering if that was true.

by Keith-Allen on Dec 14, 2011 12:54 AM EST reply actions  

no problem.

I truly do prefer TexasLeaguers pitchf/x over Fangraphs. I find them better organized and more easily read than Fangraphs.

by madpoopz on Dec 14, 2011 1:13 AM EST up reply actions  

I found more about Verlander's curve ball spin

This SI article about Trackman. is probably what I was referring to.

The spin rate numbers they have at Texasleaguers are different as they use a different method to get their data, but it’s very useful nevertheless.

by Keith-Allen on Dec 14, 2011 1:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm just starting to develop a decent understanding of spin rates.

TexasLeaguers has a formula that looks to factor in gravity into their movement charts.

by madpoopz on Dec 14, 2011 1:41 AM EST up reply actions  

there was another article on ESPN

stating the exact same thing, that Verlanders curveball is baffling because of the psin rate

Take off your white wig, put down your gavel and stop judging...

by Zaref346 on Dec 14, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Just to compare...

Verlander gets enough spin on the ball when he throws it that he can throw his curve about 5mph faster than Fister but still end up with the same amount of break. If I was a batter that thing would do more than baffle me, I’d be scared.

by madpoopz on Dec 14, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Haha

Agreed, Fister has a very effective curve but watching Verlander buckle knees the way he does, it’s something else, he punched out Posada with a 12-6 at 84 mph in the ALCS and I literally just dropped my jaw in disbelief.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11826907&topic_id=&c_id=mlb&tcid=vpp_copy_11826907&v=3

Watch the video at 1:10 and he just freezes Rios, its a beautiful thing once he snaps that pitch out of his hand

Take off your white wig, put down your gavel and stop judging...

by Zaref346 on Dec 14, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

His curve and change were just nasty that day.

when you have that kind of pitching ability you don’t even need the 100mph fastball, but he has it anyway.

by madpoopz on Dec 14, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Again agreed

It speaks well to the longevity he can have in his career, especially as he gets older, you can really see that he took that final step forward this year and really figured out how to pitch. How many times did he get himself out with man on thrid less than 2 outs? The 100 mph just gives him yet another tool with great movement.

Take off your white wig, put down your gavel and stop judging...

by Zaref346 on Dec 14, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Doug Fister is gonna win a lot games next year

but I suspect there is also going to be some regression to the mean.
His babip of .245 during his starts for the Tigers is unsustainable.

by river-z on Dec 14, 2011 1:19 AM EST reply actions  

Maybe not his Tigers-only BABIP

but his full season .274 BABIP isn’t out of the question.

by lesmanalim on Dec 14, 2011 1:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm only saying that Fister is not likely to be the same guy the Tigers saw in the back half of 2011

though it would be really nice.

Porcello might actually bounce back a little from his 316 babip, especially since his FIP has been right about league average. But Fister’s WHIP, FIP, and BABIP were all outliers during his starts with the Tigers so I think he’s likely to go from crazy good to simply good in 2012

by river-z on Dec 14, 2011 1:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I have often felt that Kid Rick lacks the confidence to elevate his four seamer

fearing that hitters will kill it. If that is the case, and I’m sure it is at times, he is unable to set up the two seamer which is his signature pitch but is often thrown down low, out of the strike zone. Any time a pitcher has to rely primarily on batters chasing pitches, he’s on thin ice. If blue isn’t generous with the strike zone on that particular day, he will have to come up with the sinker and if hitters are sitting on it, they can hit him pretty hard.

Another think that RHP’s often do is to abandon the slider against lefties, and switch over to a change up. Effectively, this often means that a three pitch pitcher has two pitches against lefties and/ or two against righties. The fear is that a slider is going to break right into a lefty’s wheel house, particularly if its a down and in slider and he’s facing a low ball hitter, which most lefties are. I like a pitcher that isn’t afraid to bust a breaking ball right in under the fists of a lefty. That requires a ball with a lot of horizontal break, rather than sink.

I still like Kid Rick quite a bit. I think he has a lot of savvy for his age, and I hate to say it, but I see a lot of Greg Maddux potential with him. That’s a lofty comparison, but I can’t help it.

"King of Minutiae"

by Tigerdog1 on Dec 14, 2011 1:40 AM EST reply actions  

the comparison is honestly there.

when David mentioned it I did a quick skim of Maddux’s numbers and it they were very comparable. If Rick develops just a few more things than sky’s the limit for him.

by madpoopz on Dec 14, 2011 1:45 AM EST up reply actions  

4seamer

Def. Agree Rick should use his high four seamer more…I remember game 163 a couple years ago he used it qjite effectively striking out 8 twins.. havent seen much of it since

by Wolverine119 on Dec 14, 2011 7:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Kid Rick

Good comments, Tigerdog. Do you remember a few seasons ago, Rick built up his strength in the off season and he was told by the administration that he was too strong and the resultant speed was hurting his movement on the two seamer. I think they missed the point.

When Rick was just starting, he could top out at 95. Had he continued to build his strength as he matured, he could have thrown a four seamer in the 95 – 98 range. Plenty of pitchers can throw both a two seamer in the low 90’s and a faster four seamer. But right handers who alternate between a slider and a low 90’s two seamer are a dime a dozen.

Rick needs that four seamer to become more than an average pitcher, and he has both the potential for strength and the command to throw it.

by Fred Gladding on Dec 14, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I keep waiting for the Rick of game #163 to show back up

But he hasn’t. The wait has been long. Is he ‘saving’ himself, or was the potential we’ve seen in game #163 and in that one hitter against the Pirates(Rick also dialed it up in that performance, mph-wise)just an outlier?

At this point, I gotta believe Rick isn’t capable of those kids of performances often. And if that is the case, his upside is most likely that of a #4 on a contender.

Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.

by Singledigit on Dec 14, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Without charts and stats right in front of me.....

Fister WAS the ace of the staff since putting on a Tigers uniform. Especially after his third game I believe it was. If someone has the stats handy from Fisters fouth game on compared to Verlander at that exact same time frame, I hae a feeling that fister outpitched Verlander by quite a nice margin. I was going to go to bed but now I have to check their stats out. Either way, its so nice to have them both on the Tigers.

President of the "Bring back Neifi Perez" fan club.

by Cabbyfan on Dec 14, 2011 6:22 AM EST reply actions  

nice article here poopz

I still think Ricky looks like he could be Doug’s younger brother. might as well pitch like him too

No longer the Founder, President and CEO of the Ryan Raburn Fan Club

by tigers22 on Dec 14, 2011 7:00 AM EST reply actions  

Piitcher being rushed MLB, stats don't show quality pitches

Doug should be a legit #2 guy because of his ability to work on the corner and off the corner. Doug also has four pitches which Rick should have adopt if he had more time in the minors. Verlander also has four pitched, is this a thrend?

by Barry2 on Dec 14, 2011 8:42 AM EST reply actions  

I think it's a trend of most starters.

and it’ll become much more useful to Verlander in particular as he ages and his fastball loses a bit of zip. Breaking balls are scary though just because of their tendency to be hung. Confidence takes a while to develop with them.

by madpoopz on Dec 14, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Location, location, location

I think that is the main difference between these two. When Fister came to Detroit I remember watching his first few starts and thinking that he hits the catchers glove every pitch. Porcello is all over the place. Porcello is effective when he works around the knees but if he leaves anything up, it gets hammered. I think that over time he should develop better precision but I don’t think he is ever going to be more than a #3/#4 type of starter. Something happened to this kid in his development where he seems to have lost his edge.

by Seth G on Dec 14, 2011 10:17 AM EST reply actions  

Porcello needs to develop some confidence in a 4 seam fastball, like TigerDog said.

having the 2 fastballs is like gaining a half pitch, but the difference between a 2 seamer and a 4 seamer makes the development necessary and useful.

by madpoopz on Dec 14, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Good Article

I agree totally with the fact that Rick needs that 4-seamer back and the confidence to throw it. In that 163rd game he was pumping past Twins hitters at 95 which combinbed with his sinker left them baffled at the plate. The slider seemed to be developing a little better but like his 4-seamer he needs to throw it to lefties, who pounded Rick this year. I loved Fister when he was in Seattle and what he’s brought to the Tigers, he has a Halladay-like repertoire (2-seamer, curveball, circle-change, with the only difference being Doug throws a cut-slider around 86-89 where Halladay has a true cutter 89-92). I agree that Rick needs to develop the curveball but the first thing would be to get the sinker velocity back to 91-94 and be able to locate on both sides of the plate. Watching him pitch several times last year he just left too many of those sinkers up which in turn allowed opposing hitters to hit “seeds” as Rod Allen would say.

Take off your white wig, put down your gavel and stop judging...

by Zaref346 on Dec 14, 2011 12:26 PM EST reply actions  

Zaref, excellent comments about Rick and Doug’s similarity to Halladay. Both have laser like precision.

Porcello needs to take control of his career and ignore the Tiger administration who are concerned that as he bulks up and gets stronger, he will lose the movement on his two seamer. Any pitcher can throw a fastball at a slower speed but unless he builds up, he can’t speed up. If Porcello can mix in 10 – 15 four seamers in the mid to high 90’s, it makes his two seamer better too.

The only time Porcello was really effective was when he was throwing a high two seamer that moved out of the strike zone on left handed hitters. Because it was up in their eyes, and because high, moving fastballs are so rare, Porcello had hitters fishing for that ball. I haven’t seen him throw it regularly since.

by Fred Gladding on Dec 14, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree Fred

When he has that pitch moving the way he knows he can throw it, its very effective but like you said mixing in 15 4-seam pitches into his pitch selection would do nothing but give him more confidence in his sinker and that’s what everyone in the organization has said about Rick, if he has the confidence he’ll be a regular 16 game winner.

Fister is just fantastic, I saw his start against the Padres in July when I was in Seattle for work and he was dominate. I immediately looked up his starts prior to that and saw that he was a victim of the worst run support in the Majors because everything outside the W-L record was very, very good. As far as the Halladay comparisons I just wanna make sure people who read this don’t think that I’m saying he’s as good as Halladay but he’s similar in everything he does: the way they attack the zone, they’re work ethic (Fister runs 10 miles a day), they’re both control freaks and they both have a great feel for pitching. (here’s the highlights from that game http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=16540153&topic_id=&c_id=mlb&tcid=vpp_copy_16540153&v=3)

Take off your white wig, put down your gavel and stop judging...

by Zaref346 on Dec 15, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

You may be right

but the stats from 2010 and 2011 weren’t that much different, he still got hit by lefties at marginally high number, with similar WHIP, BA, BB/GS, H/GS and lacked the velocity he showed in 2009. He started to bring it back up in the 2nd half of 2011 and his July was great (he went 5-0). Naturally anytime you add/lose weight you have to make adjustments like all hitters and pitchers do, similarly like when they age they have a slower bat so they make adjustments, Rick isn’t any different. That 95 mph 4-seamer has got to be there to make his sinker more effective. Thats the difference between dominating sinker ballers and marginal sinker ballers.

Take off your white wig, put down your gavel and stop judging...

by Zaref346 on Dec 25, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Excellent article. I do not disagree with porcellos fast track to the bigs and think he is developing fine. Its almost impossible to develop secondary pitches at the big league level so he just needs to work that much harder during the offseason and spring training to develop the confidence and feel for his curve and change up.

by syper17 on Dec 14, 2011 12:39 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions  

Great article

the one thing that’s always frustrated me with Rick is that we all know he has 97 in his back pocket.. he was hitting 95 regularly in HS if I’m remembering correctly.. I just don’t know why we don’t cut him loose and let him pump a few fastballs in there instead of sitting at 89-90

Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual

by BrianCMU. on Dec 14, 2011 2:20 PM EST reply actions  

Brian, I remember that game. I wasn’t sure if the gun was off or Porcello was feeling unusually strong or both, but I remember him hitting 97 and he was very effective. I remember it because I’ve always thought the Tigers were holding Porcello back by not letting him get strong in the off season.

He did build up one season and naturally his two seam fastball didn’t move as much at 92 – 93 mph. If he is allowed to build up, I think Porcello can throw a 97 mph four seamer and follow it with a 90 mph two seamer turned over. Imagine adding that to his slider and change.

by Fred Gladding on Dec 14, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

My thoughts exactly

their reasoning is probably that they think he’ll lose the life on his fastball. But if he can still use his 2-seamer, with great movement, and his off-speed pitches (slider, CB, changeup), in addition to a 97 MPH heater, I don’t see how he couldn’t be anything but successful. It’s the one issue with the front office that has always really baffled me.

Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual

by BrianCMU. on Dec 15, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Fred Gladding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Gladding

The Vikings throw a Christian to the Lions, twice a season!

by randalljwhite on Dec 14, 2011 4:01 PM EST reply actions  

Fred Gladding.... sigh

Seared into my brain is the vision of Fred Gladding making a catch in one of the “must win” games of the final weekend of 1967. I will always have a place in my heart for The Bear.

"Some guy told me I should walk with the Lord. I'd rather walk with the bases loaded" Ken Singleton

by NCDee on Dec 15, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Fred

made Hank Agguire look like Mantle!!

The Vikings throw a Christian to the Lions, twice a season!

by randalljwhite on Dec 14, 2011 4:03 PM EST reply actions  

Fister

has quietly turned himself into a very good, very effective pitcher. Great pick-up by the Tigers last year. Sweet that y’all get him for 4 more years. I’m fairly confident saying history will prove y’all won that trade.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 15, 2011 2:45 AM EST reply actions  

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