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Glancing at the outfield battle this spring

We hold these truths as self evident: Ryan Raburn, Austin Jackson and Magglio Ordonez have their outfield positions safely sewn up -- no matter what Bobby Valentine says on ESPN. Beyond that, it's hard to say for sure what the Tigers will do and who they will bring north.

Entering spring training, the primary candidates appeared to be Don Kelly (maybe -- I think he's safe as some sort of super sub roll), left-handed slugger Brennan Boesch, left-handed slick fielder Clete Thomas and right-handed slugger/fielder Casper Wells. Since then we can probably add one more name to that list: leff-handed batter Andy Dirks, as Jim Leyland recently told the media he's in the running.

Obviously those are quick descriptions of the players, but who the Tigers decide to take north will probably be more dependent on how manager Jim Leyland and GM Dave Dombrowski see the needed roles on the 25-man roster as much as anything that happens in the box scores over the next few weeks. That isn't to say spring training success isn't important. It's just that deciding your ballclub based on the limited statistics of spring training isn't a good idea. Deciding it based on your needs as well as the scouting report put together by watching the players in situations during the five weeks of spring training is a much better way to go.

I'm not telling the Tigers anything new here, but sometimes the fans can put too much emphasis on the results of these games and not the way they're played.

Star-divide

So where do things stand right now? Well that depends on how you see things. Here are the three most likely ways of composing the roster, depending what you believe. 

If you believe the key component is defense:

Well, sorry Brennan. But if the decision this spring is based on the ability to step into the game in late innings in place of the average-at-best fielders Raburn and Ordonez, then the players who go north are Clete Thomas and Casper Wells. Thomas isn't going to give you the same ability at the plate as Boesch, but it might not be as night-and-day difference between the two as you might believe. We all know the reason for that. As good as Boesch was for his first two months he was bad for his second two months. He's probably somewhere in between, but Thomas isn't too bad himself. Wells is an obvious choice, both because he gives a right-handed option at the plate and because like Thomas he plays stellar defense.

Given the team's less-than-stellar defense overall this might be a smart way to go.

If you believe there's no need for a right-handed bat off the bench:

Take Casper Wells out of the equation to begin with.  And then you can narrow down the options to "bring north a slugger and a fielder" or "bring north a pair of fielders."

I haven't named Andy Dirks yet, but it's not because I forgot him. He's just a hard one to label and without having anything in particular to hang his hat on makes it difficult to find a defined role. When it comes to making up a major league bench, you like to have defined roles and role players who excel in them. Dirks can probably best be seen as a strong fielder. A former college pitcher and a center fielder, he can certainly be trusted as a late-innings defender. It's hard to say what he brings to plate, though. Across 192 games in Double-A, Dirks got on base at a .333 clip and slugged at .389. Last season after his promotion from Erie, he wowed with a .398 OBP and .648 slugging average. But that came in just 22 games at Triple-A Toledo. A safe bet says his stats would have leveled off a lot closer to his Double-A numbers over a larger number of games played. So despite Dirks' spring, I still consider him mostly a Clete Thomas type. Not that that's bad, as I've said. It's good to have options.

The most likely outcome under the all-lefty scenario is Boesch and Thomas. That's nice flexibility if you need a slugger to pinch hit or start the occassional game while having a nice defender in the outfield.

If you believe in the ultimate flexibity coming off the bench:

Then I think the best decision the Tigers could make is Casper Wells as well as Brennan Boesch. That gives Detroit options from both sides of the plate as well as a defensive replacement in the outfield who can play all the positions. I really like this combination.

So what should the Tigers do? That's actually a pretty hard question. But to answer it, I'd probably go north with Wells and Thomas and see how Boesch starts off playing regularly in Triple-A. At some point this season, he's going to be called up. It doesn't have to be to start the year. As the season goes on I expect all four of the players discussed will find major-league playing time and bring their own speciality to the team as it becomes necessary.

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2 spots? and Raburn

I thought there was only one spot open? (i’m including Kelly in the 25)

Also, shouldn’t Raburn be getting more reps in left? Its clear after todays game that Jim wants these guys to get as much time to state their case as possible, but one would think it would be more beneficial to allow Raburn to get more comfortable in the outfield. Or has he reached the point defensively of diminishing returns?

by Sparten21 on Mar 3, 2011 8:53 PM EST reply actions  

5 starting pitchers
7 relievers
9 position players (avila and martinez are both included in this)
4 bench positions
_
25

The infield bench could very well be Santiago/Kelly, leaving two outfield spots. That’s my current thinking anyway.

by Kurt Mensching on Mar 3, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually included a bit more why Kelly wasn't as safe as I thought but then deleted it

in any case I think it would be a mistake just to give him an outfield backup role and only choose one of the four mentioned.

by Kurt Mensching on Mar 3, 2011 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok thanks

I see now. I was under the impression it would be santiago, kelly, OF, and 2b (two of the three until guillen got back). But yours makes more sense because of santiago’s ability to play both 2b and ss. I wonder if sizemore instead of kelly could be a possibility, along with 2 OFers, with his albeit limited 3rd base ability.

Also I agree about Kelly. I love his versatility but we are a very versatile team even without him. It seems 3rd base is really all he has, and emergency catcher i guess.

How would you compare the talent of our “reserves” competing for the final spots to that of the years past?

by Sparten21 on Mar 3, 2011 9:19 PM EST up reply actions  

outfield is stronger than in many recent years

infield is probably about the same as it ever is.

In recent years the spring training battles have actually been pretty mundane. So this year is more interesting anyway.

by Kurt Mensching on Mar 3, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Now you see why I told DD NOT to sign Werth or Crawford.

If Clete Thomas continues his hitting and HAS shortened his swing, he’d move ahead of Wells. I’m still hopeful that they didn’t hurt Strieby’s wrist by too much swinging. He’s still my DH when VMart catches. Before the season is over, and the Kids are played according to Grosberg, you MIGHT discover that Ordonez was a mistake and Clete Thomas alternated with AJax. What potential depth!!!! I’m open from the negative fans. Wait for my comments on the IF and pitchers.

by StephenGrosberg on Mar 4, 2011 8:49 AM EST up reply actions  

It's hard

to take you seriously when you say things like “Make sure not to sign Carl Crawford or Jason Werth! We MUST leave room for Clete Thomas!”

There are plenty some reasons not to sign Carl Crawford or Jason Werth, but Clete Thomas is not one of them.

by Big Z in Orlando on Mar 4, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

+1

I just gave up on Stephen. He doesn’t listen to any other opinion and refuses to see the glaring holes in his arguments. It is too bad really, he has good ideas and his enthusiasm is kinda unmatched, but his absolute refusal to acknowledge anything else makes him impossible to reason with.

by wilsonm24 on Mar 4, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Depth that can develop big time means to me, don't sign overpriced free agents.

Our developing OF are Raburn, Boesch, Clete Thomas, Wells, and Andy Dirks. Stay tuned.

by StephenGrosberg on Mar 4, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

To watch all of them but maybe Raburn and Wells develop into fourth outfielders

"Aside from the stuff I haven’t been diagnosed for yet, I don’t have a problem."- Phil Coke

Contributor, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Mar 5, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm curious about the life cycle of Grosberg's boys...

Lets say that someone actually develops into a stud. (Cut to wavy lines…future vision coming…) Adam Wilk is our established 5th starter in 2013, coming off a strong 14-6, 3.88 sophomore season. However, he’s the weakest link in our rotation behind Verlander, Scherzer, Porcello, and Turner. Hot prospect Cole Nelson just finished a really strong season at Erie and is knocking on the MLB door. How does Grosberg handle this?

Does he advocate trading Wilk to make room for Nelson? My guess is that he takes the true prospect route and says the Verlander needs to go…he’s getting too old and expensive.

The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981

by momotigers on Mar 5, 2011 8:43 AM EST up reply actions  

He did once say on another site

That Miguel Cabrera should be replaced by Jeff Larish. So I am sure he would be in favor of trading Verlander.

by Ekaye80 on Mar 5, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome article on a very debatable subject

I’m not a big fan of Don Kelly and his pathetic bat. I agree though that his spot on the team is pretty much sewn up.
Dirks has impressed the hell out of me. Perhaps to soon though. He’s not on the 40 man roster and I don’t see anything wrong with him starting in Toledo where he can prove that he belongs.
I hear the arguments about Wells and Thomas. I like their speed and defensive skills.
However, I love the idea of a home run hitting lefty off the bench. In the bottom of the ninth I feel much more comfortable sending up Brennan Boesch to pinch hit. Something about slap hitters just makes me cringe.
Either way, I am very excited about this season. I have watched a lot of good baseball this first week. I like our chances.

James R. Chipman
Minor League Coverage
MotorCityBengals.com

by JAYRC on Mar 3, 2011 10:09 PM EST reply actions  

Clete Thomas has hit home runs in clutch situations.

See my reply to Kurt. Wells could enf up the “Forgotten Man.” Thanks for the recognition of Dirks. What OF depth!!!!!

by StephenGrosberg on Mar 4, 2011 8:52 AM EST up reply actions  

My guess: Santiago, Rhymes, Thomas, Kelly

The first question is who starts at second base. From there, pick two infield and two outfield reserves. Count Kelly as an outfielder.

I don’t view Kelly as super anything, just a backup outfielder who has the ability to get on base. Peralta is the primary backup at third base (for the two games of 162 that Inge will not be there) and V Mart as the primary backup at first in the rare instance when Cabrera is the DH. That leaves Kelly as a third stringer at first, third, and catcher.

I don’t think that Leyland has to choose between defense and offense. He could take Kelly and Boesch, or Kelly and Wells. I think he likes Clete, as the best defensive replacement type, but I don’t see any advantage to having Thomas on the bench, lefty or not. If it’s not about spring results, then Thomas should not be under consideration. He has a lot to prove at the plate, and spring is the only chance he has. Where we left off when he was healthy, he hit .218 for the second half of 2009. There is nobody that I’d want him to pinch hit for.

My initial take was that the Tigers would want Boesch and Sizemore, the two guys with the biggest potential, starting either in Detroit or Toledo. I still believe that about Sizemore, but if Boesch has found his stroke again, it will be very hard for Leyland to send him down in favor of Don Kelly and Clete Thomas. And no, Bobby Valentine didn’t convince me, just watching Boesch nail one 400 feet off Jurrjens, and making solid contact while laying off a few close pitches today brought back memories of a guy that almost carried the Tiger offense for half a season in 2010. Now, my thought is that someone on the bench should be able to hit better than Santiago, Rhymes, and Kelly, and I don’t give Clete Thomas much credit there.

I don’t think Leyland will carry three sub outfielders, and I don’t think Kelly is anything but a third string backup as an infielder. I definitely see two middle infield backups of the four.

I don't care what the Chinese say, 2011 is the Year of the Tiger!

by Tigerdog1 on Mar 3, 2011 10:20 PM EST reply actions  

If you are strictly looking at Kelly as an OF

Then why even bring him north? He isn’t better than Thomas, Boesch or Wells as strictly an OF. The whole reason that he has a spot pretty much locked up is because he can play 3rd, 1st and Catch. I don’t see him playing 1st this year at all. Leyland doesn’t like to move his regulars to different positions just to give another guy a day off so I don’t see Peralta moving to 3rd unless Inge is on the DL, which means you have to have someone that can fill in the other 2 or 3 games of the year that Inge doesn’t play.

by wilsonm24 on Mar 4, 2011 7:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Not strictly an outfielder

but that’s where he’d get the bulk of his playing time, and he’d be no more than a third stringer at any infield position. He could yet be squeezed out if two of Boesch, Wells, Thomas, and Dirks are hitting very well this spring.

I don't care what the Chinese say, 2011 is the Year of the Tiger!

by Tigerdog1 on Mar 5, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Forget the versatility of Kelly.

Use Rhymes, Raburn, and Santiago when you need to. I want guys who can win games with a clutch hit.

by StephenGrosberg on Mar 4, 2011 8:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Kelly and Wells, even I like Thomas

Another story should be written next week too about who going to be the extra outfielder. as we gauge who hot and healthy. I think Boesch, Thomas and Dirks have options left too. I would like to see Dirks and Boesch still face more AAA pitching. Boesch has to learn not to swing at so many balls. When the Tigers face a lefty, Maggs will be DH and we need someone to play RF. He might as well bat right too. With Thomas it is a # games but first call up if there is an injury unless Boesch has found bat disciple.

by Barry2 on Mar 3, 2011 10:29 PM EST reply actions  

too early next week

but maybe around the 21st or 22nd of the month. We have to let plots develop more.

by Kurt Mensching on Mar 3, 2011 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Thomas has one option year left

Dirks has all his options, and won’t even use one if he is sent down this season. He’s not yet on the 40 man roster, so he doesn’t have to be on “optional assignment”. Boesch and Wells should have two option years apiece left. Kelly is out of options, and could refuse assignment even if he cleared waivers.

In the infield, Santiago is in the same boat as Kelly- out of options. Sizemore, Worth, and Rhymes have two options left, Ciriaco has two left, Brandon Douglas is not yet on the roster, and obviously Guillen can not be optioned anywhere.

I don't care what the Chinese say, 2011 is the Year of the Tiger!

by Tigerdog1 on Mar 3, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Outfielders

I would go Wells and Thomas for the D. If Boesch lights it up in Toledo then obviously he’ll need to come up. Quite honestly, much as I hate to say it, Magglio won’t last long. Guillen, well we know what will happen with him – so both Sizemore and Rhymes will play secind

by BengalsNme on Mar 3, 2011 11:42 PM EST reply actions  

The 25

Raburn, Jackson,Ordonez,Inge,Peralta,Sizemore,Cabrera, Avila, Martinez,Kelly,Santiago,Thomas,Wells
Verlander,Scherzer,Porcello, Coke, Penny, Weinhardt, Thomas, Zumaya, Perry, Schlereth, Benoit, Valverde

by BengalsNme on Mar 3, 2011 11:52 PM EST reply actions  

Find 2 more because Zumaya may be down and Brad Thomas is going backwards. I'd try Adam Wilk and Brayan Villarreal.

Furbush isn’t ready based on ST. Toledo will tell us about first up on a DL. ST will tell us if I’m right about Wilk and Villarreal. Turner and Oliver may see the Tigers later in a DL, depending on Erie and Toledo. I’m 100% what the Tigers SHOULD do, not what they will do.

by StephenGrosberg on Mar 4, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Thomas and Boesch

I think Leyland like the righty/lefty match-ups to much to bring another right handed hitter to come off the bnech, especially for the outfield.

I like Wells and think that next year he will compete for the RF spot with Boesch, and I think the best thing for him is a full season of swings which he will only get at AAA. If the tigers ultimately feel that Boesch is the future in RF then they may send him to Toledo to get a full season of swings and playtime there…

It really to me feel that the one they project to be the regular RF in the next year or two will start the year at AAA to continue development.

by wilsonm24 on Mar 4, 2011 8:09 AM EST reply actions  

Great Article, Kurt

I really don’t see the value in Don Kelly, so I’m hoping he doesn’t head north (Sorry Donbot). I think the safest bet would be Thomas and Wells, which addresses both defense and a left handed bat. Boesch will be able to build his confidence and get on a roll in Toledo and WILL be up before June. But that’s just my opinion

Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual

by BrianCMU. on Mar 4, 2011 9:26 AM EST reply actions  

I agree

I think this will be the best scenario. Having said that, I feel bad for the guy who doesn’t make the team and for Jim and DD as this is a very tough decision.

by Sparten21 on Mar 4, 2011 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Absolutely

a tough decision. Somewhat of a log jam so whoever doesn’t make it will be on the merry go round, which is tough

Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual

by BrianCMU. on Mar 4, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Boesch and Thomas go north

It will be B. Boesch and Cletus. Boesch appears to be having a similar start as last year and he will likely push Raburn hard if Ryan starts as slowly as he has the past two seasons. Clete will be the late inning defensive guy mostly until his swing inevitably discomobulates to the point he goes back to Toledo. Whoever is hottest between Wells and Dirks will be in Detroit for the rest of the season, probably Dirks. Strieby will have to prove himself in Toledo, sorry Stephen Grosberg…. Leyland really likes Kelly and even though I agree with Tigerdog that there are other configurations that makes more sense, Kelly goes north. Guillen starts the season on the DL and Rymes and Sizemore duke it out until CG comes back. Loser goes to Toledo to wait until Guillen goes down for the last time in a Tiger uniform.
Pretty tidy. All questions answered.

by DuaneLAtiger on Mar 4, 2011 10:01 AM EST reply actions  

Tough call

I don’t know which two of the three I would take (I don’t see Dirk making the team). I just feel bad for the one who heads south. Boesch, Wells, and Clete all add value, and it will be a big blow to the one who doesn’t get the call.
I think Clete is the best fielder, Boesch is the best hitter, and Wells is the best overall player. Personally, I guess I would probably take the two “specialists” lefties, and let Wells keep getting everyday at bats in Toledo. He’s the future.

A lifelong Tigers fan

by ewild on Mar 4, 2011 10:12 AM EST reply actions  

Everyone seems to think we don't need a righty OF bat off the bench . . . .

. . . but that means we give Avila a lot of ABs against lefthanded pitching.

by rea on Mar 4, 2011 10:53 AM EST reply actions  

Why would it mean Avila gets a lot of at bats against lefties?

Vmart catches Thomas plays the field and Boesch bats as DH.

Avila and Maggs sit on the bench and eat sunflower seeds.

Not to mention I wouldn’t mind getting some work against lefties, he has to learn how to hit them eventually.

by wilsonm24 on Mar 4, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

NM....

I don’t really know what I was thinking there…..

I still don’t see why Avila would have to bat against the lefties though. Boesch did hit pretty well against lefties so he could fill in for Vmart in DH when he catches against lefties.

by wilsonm24 on Mar 4, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Bobby Valentine doesn't know anything about the Tigers

and came off looking really stupid trying to talk about them

"The White Sox...they suck. And we're going to show the Twins they suck too." - Phil Coke

by tigers22 on Mar 4, 2011 11:17 AM EST reply actions  

did he ever

Orel’s the man though. “Do I miss pitching? No, I miss pitching well.”

by Sparten21 on Mar 4, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree

I’ve always loved Hershiser.

The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981

by momotigers on Mar 5, 2011 8:45 AM EST up reply actions  

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