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Skipping Penny in the Rotation Worth It?


Hey BYB community.  I am long time reader but first time poster. Thanks to all of you who post on the Tigers, we have a great fan-base and it really shows on BYB.

Anyway, I did a quick run through of the schedule today and noticed that the Tigers have a few off days coming up.

It might behoove the Tigers to skip a Penny start or two.  This would accomplish 2 things.  Limit the Tigers weakest starter's appearances and get better match-ups vs the Tribe and Twins.  To me the most important idea is to have Verlander and to a lesser extent Porcello and Scherzer matched up against a newly bolstered Tribe.  The Tigers need to win at least 6 more games against the Tribe, with 12 Tribe/Tigers games left.

Now to my suggestion.  Skip Penny on the 4th and again on the 10th and use him in the bullpen as a long reliever or put him in some simulated games to work on his stuff instead.  It will do the following.

1) Porcello against the Rangers on the 4th in place of Penny.  This increases our chances of winning that tough game.


2) Royals - Verlander moves up a day to the 5th.  Followed by Scherzer on the 6th and Fister on the 7th.  This positions the Tigers to set up nicely against the Indians in their next two series.


3) Tribe - we go with all of our pitchers on a healthy 4 days rest, due to the Tigers' off day on the 8th.  We skip Penny again and in his place Porcello gets the start on the 9th, Verlander goes on the 10th, followed by Scherzer on the 11th.  This set of starters is as strong as the Tigers get and it positions the Tigers best to win the series.


4) Orioles - Fister leads on 12th, followed by a reinserted Penny on the 13th, and Porcello on the 14th.  Against a below avevage Baltimore, hopefully this is good for 1-2 wins.  Reinserting Penny positions the Tigers to have Verlander and Scherzer available for the next two series against AL Central rivals


5) Twins - Verlander runs out there on the 15th, followed by Scherzer on the 16th, and Fister on the 17th.  We set up nicely for a series against Minnesota that hopefully puts the Twins away - or close to it.


6) Tribe - The Tigers have an off day on the 18th.  Penny on the 19th, Verlander on the 20th and Scherzer on the 21st.  We get our best two pitchers against the Indians.  And if you wanted to push it you could skip Penny and go with Verlander, Scherzer, Porcello, all on a full four days rest.

These rotation changes are difference makers in an AL Central that almost always seems to come down to the last day or two every season - and if you check the schedule who do we close the season against?  The Indians!

By skipping Penny against Texas on the 4th and Cleveland on the 10th the Tigers greatly improve their chances of winning these two very tough games.  Porcello would start the 4th and Verlander would start start on the 10th.  Additionally, Scherzer would get a start on the 11th against Cleveland in an important divisional game instead of starting against Baltimore on the 12th.

Skipping Penny twice gets Verlander 2 extra start against Cleveland. The way the schedule is set now Verlander would pitch against Baltimore on the 12th instead of Cleveland on the 10th - and against Cleveland on the 20th instead of Tampa Bay on the 22nd.

The Tigers need their best pitchers matched up against Cleveland and to a lesser extent Minnesota (still in striking distance at 7 games out).  The schedule allows flexiblity to do that - without going on short rest.

Dombrowski and Leyland need to show they have the gumption to do this, even if it means making the underperforming Brad Penny a little mad. 

At the end of the day, it is likely the season will be determined in games 160-162, against Cleveland.  Anything the Tigers can do to better position themselves for that series will go a long way.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.

Comment 33 comments  |  10 recs  | 

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Good post, worthy discussion

I might add a #3 and #4 to your list of accomplishments:

  1. Save 3M dollars
  2. Lower the cost of offering arbitration

According to COT’s, Penny’s contract is for 3M base + 3M in performance bonus.

I don’t know what the language of the contract is, but let’s just pretend that it includes 170IP and/or 12 Wins. By skipping a few of Penny’s starts, these numbers get pretty suspect. (For the record, I’m guessing that the actual language is more like 150IP with no regard to wins).

Furthermore, the organization will have a difficult decision on their hands this off-season with regard to offering arbitration to Penny or just letting him walk. If he accepts arbitration, his 2012 salary could be anywhere from 3M to 10M and I have no idea what a good guess would be. (Anyone who understands this process better than I do should chime in here). Regardless, the worse his numbers look in 2011, the lower the arbitration number would probably tend to be. He’s probably a type ‘B’, so the compensation pick should make it worth considering. I’d like to leave a spot open for Turner in 2012, but just about every team needs a #6 often throughout the season. There’s no reason to not sign a veteran SP for 2012.

The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981

by momotigers on Aug 1, 2011 4:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Is Penny really going to be B?

Hmm. Don’t know enough about it and I guess it depends on how he finishes. I wouldn’t offer him arbitration if he wasn’t compensated for, for sure.

by rcpratt on Aug 1, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

Penny is too far off the list to make it up to B status at this point.

I don't care what the Chinese say, 2011 is the Year of the Tiger!

by Tigerdog1 on Aug 1, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, if he's not going to be worth compensation picks...

Let him walk. I still wouldn’t mind it terribly if we took a flyer on a #5 starter for 2012 and let Turner step in for the first ineffective starter or injury.

The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981

by momotigers on Aug 1, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let Penny walk.

He would accept arbitration and we don’t want him.

3 million dollars is nothing compared to the risk of missing the playoffs and rewards of making them. Do whatever you think will cause the team to make the playoffs this year without hurting a pitcher in the long run.

You know I'm right about this.

by HighOPS on Aug 1, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is no benefit to offering arbitration

Veteran players with a salary history that is very high stand to benefit in arbitration beyond just their level of performance. The arbitration criteria rewards years of service and salary history, and those are two factors not really considered by clubs when signing a free agent.

I don't care what the Chinese say, 2011 is the Year of the Tiger!

by Tigerdog1 on Aug 1, 2011 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree 100%

we can find a much more adequate starter on the market during the offseason, and if we offer him arbitration, he’s very likely to take it. I don’t want to be stuck with him for another season.

Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual

by BrianCMU. on Aug 2, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

i like

every part of this idea. and recd it.

by tbone521 on Aug 1, 2011 5:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Workload of other 4 starters

If we were two games behind I’d consider it. With the lead I’d not start this right away.

Porcello is within 54 innings of the most he has pitched.
Scherzer is within 63 innings of the most he has pitched.
Verlander is within 59 inning of the most he has pitched.
Fister is within 25 innings of the most he has pitched.

So if all the starters go around 6 innings per start they will already all exceed their previous maximum in the 10-11 starts left to them.

I’ll take a slightly smaller chance to win every fifth day for now.

You know I'm right about this.

by HighOPS on Aug 1, 2011 9:04 PM EDT reply actions  

I wouldn't be concerned with JV, since he's a freak

But with Porcello this is a very valid point. Scherzer could stand to add a few innings anyway, and I don’t know enough about Fister yet, but he’s going to go over anyway.

by Rob Rogacki on Aug 1, 2011 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

One correction on Verlander's starts

Verlander gets 11 starts either way for the rest of the season, not 12, which I wrote above. My mistake there.

by DTFB on Aug 2, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

That actually makes a ton of sense

"Aside from the stuff I haven’t been diagnosed for yet, I don’t have a problem."- Phil Coke

Contributor, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Aug 2, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great first post

Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual

by BrianCMU. on Aug 2, 2011 9:45 AM EDT reply actions  

Agreed. Well thought out.

Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Fight!

by Brand New Hero on Aug 2, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

We all know how his last daygame went too.

I’d much rather have Kid Rick than Penny who thinks a 1pm start is too early.

by crc33 on Aug 2, 2011 10:27 AM EDT reply actions  

An Added Twist...

I would like to suggest, that in addition to the rotation adjustments noted above, that we drop Penny completely from the Starting Rotation and insert Tuner/Below into his spot for the remainder of the season. His ERA, WHIP and OppBA are all trending worse and that display with Martinez was just pathetic. He cannot strike a guys out to save his life, and I for one am excited to watch these young guys come out and pitch well. We can put Penny in the bullpen and use him in mop-up duty when needed, however if Turner/Below give you a better chance to win, they need to be out there.

The Chairman of the Steve Yzerman for President fan club.

by Christopher Horvath on Aug 2, 2011 10:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Nice first post

And I’m all for skipping Penny.

"Goaltending is a normal job, sure. How would you like it in your job if every time you made a small mistake, a red light went on over your desk and 15,000 people stood up and yelled at you."
-Jacques Plante

by DetroitSports on Aug 2, 2011 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

What made you think to do all this research?

It is very impressive that you noticed this one tiny detail that could completely change the AL Central. Of course Jim Leyland won’t be able to see the intelligence of this past his cataracts, but whatever. I wish you were the team’s manager.

by TJ92 on Aug 2, 2011 3:48 PM EDT reply actions  

The way I came to this idea was....

We have a ton of games against the tribe (12). And that if we win over half of those (7+) we will have a huge advantage to win the division. The most obvious advantage we have over the Indians is Verlander. If we can manipualte the schedule to get 3 Verlander starts against the Indians, this would swing the 12 game advantage to us. Masterson and Jiminez are very, very good starters but they are in a different category than Verlander. Luckily for us, the schedule allows flexiblity to get Verlander the starts. Plus getting Porcello and Scherzer more meaningful matchups would just be gravy. Sadly, the consensus is probably right. Dombrowski and Leyland will run Penny out there and the Tigers will be worse off for it.

by DTFB on Aug 2, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great post and idea...

B-U-U-U-U-U-T we have a problem…

(Jim Leyland fishes around in his desk, pulling out a worn out hardcover book from the early 1980s, flips a few pages and shakes his head)

LEYLAND: (unintelligible)… says rotation has 5 pitchers. 5 man rotation. Gottagobythebookonthisone. Pennysgonnagoouthereandbattle… He’saveteranwhoknowshowtowinballgames.

(He lights a Marlboro, places the book titled “Unwritten Rules” by Tony LaRussa on the desk, then gives it a fond pat.)

Guillen says‚ "¿Que?"

by 51hr_slurpee on Aug 2, 2011 4:32 PM EDT reply actions  

The dog days of summer are here

 While you gain a little quantity for our top 4 guys, you might lose some quality. That extra day of rest can do some good.

by Keith-Allen on Aug 2, 2011 6:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks for this post

it made me realize with the rotation the way it is set I’ll see Fister pitch in Baltimore on the 14th…initially thought it’d be Penny.

Wait til October...

by NoVaVolt on Aug 2, 2011 11:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Welcome and I echo the sentiment that your first post was very well done.

Anything that gets the ball into the hands of the better starters has my support (save bringing Purcey back).

I have a grand idea: let's win a game.

by 13194013 on Aug 3, 2011 5:23 AM EDT reply actions  

would like it to happen

but only because I have tickets for 8/20 vs the Tribe. Would love to see Verlander pitch that day. don’t think it will happen though. nice analysis.

by weedig on Aug 3, 2011 9:21 AM EDT reply actions  

Tomorrow's Game Against Ogando Will Be A Tough One For Penny and Tigers

Ogando will be going for his third victory of the season against the Tigers tomorrow and he has been basically unhittable for the Tigers this season.

by Buddahfan on Aug 3, 2011 11:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Good move.

Wojo tweeted that they’re “riding” Verlander hard. That’s bunk. All major league pitchers are coddled these days.

I don't care what the Chinese say, 2011 is the Year of the Tiger!

by Tigerdog1 on Aug 6, 2011 3:16 PM EDT reply actions  

I wouldn't go that far

But pushing a good starting pitcher with clean medicals a little harder doesn’t seem insane.

"Aside from the stuff I haven’t been diagnosed for yet, I don’t have a problem."- Phil Coke

Contributor, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Aug 6, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

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