Who is the Tigers' MVP? YOU make the call
by BigAl on Aug 24, 2011 1:28 PM EDT
in Detroit Tigers Analysis
Email
PrintYesterday, between writing posts for BYB and for my own blog (Self promo warning! Visit the The Wayne Fontes Experience for all things Lions), I had ESPN playing in the background. What suddenly caught my attention on Sportscenter was their discussion, if you can call it that, as to who should win the AL MVP award.
I'll let Rogo of Designate Robertson take over from here:
So they say they have six candidates for the MVP in the American League to discuss. Sadly, I can't remember which talking heads were babbling about all of this. Anyway, they actually brought up Miguel Cabrera’s name, but immediately dismissed him saying "all he does is hit, nothing else". Whatever. The others? Mark Teixeira, Curtis Granderson, Jacoby Ellsbury, Adrian Gonzalez, and Verlander.
Tex and JV were cut and they spent the rest of the time promising free bj’s to any Yankee or Red Sox player that would stop by the studio. Something like that. Ellsbury ended up being their winner.
Personally, I treat ESPN as a necessary evil. The network is a shadow of it's once great self, but you're stuck viewing because they own the broadcast rights to damn near any sport worth watching. Much of my disgust comes from the fact the 4 Letter is shameless when it comes to self promotion (leading off the 1AM Sportscenter with Little League World Series highlights because they own the rights), and clueless in other matters (for example, keeping Skip Bayless and Woody Paige on the payroll). Honestly, the MLB Network is a far better option for news and analysis, but depending on the TV I'm using, it's not always available. But I digress...
Odds are ESPN eliminated Verlander and Cabrera because they play for a fly over city, not for the east coast axis of evil. Or maybe they're just dumb. But their discussion did get me to thinking...
Pretty much everyone acknowledges the Tigers have a pair of legit AL MVP candidates. But when other circumstances are factored in, would either Verlander or Cabrera be the Tigers' MVP, hands down? If not, who would? Why or why not?
With five weeks left in the season, the list of candidates could change. But to this point of the year, there are five serious candidates, listed in alphabetical order:
Pro: Alvia's having an August for the ages offensively, become an iron man, never missing a start while taking a beating behind the plate (this in an age where players will miss time due to moths flying in their ear), and in only his 2nd full season, he just may have become be the best all-around catcher in baseball. Avila is an elite player at a difficult position.
Con: Save for having an awful July, if's hard to think of one. Avila has been that good.
Miguel Cabrera
Pro: Having another typical, highly productive season in his HoF quality career. Miggy is all over the AL's top ten in every important offensive category - 2nd in the AL in OBP, OPS and BB, 5th in BA, 6th in SLG and R, 7th in RBI, 8th in 2B, 9th in H, 10th in HR. Cabrera not being an AL MVP candidate in any season would be a surprise.
Con: As a 1st baseman, Cabrera does not play what would be considered a vital defensive position, his greatness is overshadowed by Verlander's breakout year and Avila being so damn hardcore, tends to be taken for granted by the fans due to his awesome consistency.
Pro: Leads the Tigers in BA, is playing through injuries, has given Cabrera the lineup protection he has long needed, provides excellent offensive production from a position the Tigers have ignored in the past, DH. Just imagine the fallout if the Tigers had not signed Martinez, and had gone with one of the other big name free agent bats...say Adam Dunn?
Con: V-Mart was singed to split time with Avila, yet has played very little at catcher (though it's due to his knee and back injuries). Can a one dimensional player really be considered team MVP?
Pro: Having a career season offensively, leads AL SS in BA, OPS, is 2nd in SLG and OBP, has given the Tigers elite production at a position where they have been getting zilch offensively since Carlos Guillen's glory days ended.
Con: Peralta is an average defender, with little range. But much like Avila, there's really nothing bad to say about Peralta's season.
Pro: The favorite to win the AL CY Young award, and could win the AL pitching Triple Crown. Verlander leads the AL in W, IP, K, BAA, WHIP, GS, and is 2nd in ERA. Tossed his 2nd career no-hitter, has flirted with another no-no in three other starts. If he's not the best starting pitcher in baseball, Verlander is on the very short list.
Con: This is, as the Brits say, the sticky wicket, and may derail Verlander's chances at the AL MVP. Despite his undisputed dominance, can a pitcher who only starts 35 or so games be more valuable than an everyday player?
I'm sure I've missed some other pros and cons, or even another player who deserved consideration, such as Jose Valverde. I'd like to get your thoughts in the comments, and of course...I've added a poll!
39 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
What about Valverde as a possible?
Verlander will likely win the Cy Young and therefore not get enough attention for MVP. Valverde-albeit sometimes heart stopping- has been there game in and out and should merit consideration.
Would not be unhappy with Avila as he is developing into a serious weapon despite playing full games in the most strenuous position.
Good thing is that Tigers are in first and we can be discussing MVP and Tiger in the same breath.
You know
People like to rag on the Tigers, but when you stop and think about it, the fact that we have so many players doing this well is astounding.
If only our pitching could get it together, we’d be favorites for the World Series.
by metatron5369 on Aug 24, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Our pitching has been reasonably solid
Stealing Rogo’s work at DesigNateRobertson on Tigers’ record when different pitchers start:
Justin Verlander: 20-8
Max Scherzer: 17-9
Rick Porcello: 15-9
Brad Penny: 11-13
Phil Coke: 4-10
Doug Fister: 2-2
Duane Below: 0-2
Charlie Furbush: 0-2
Andy Oliver: 0-2
Jacob Turner: 0-1
Using this very crude metric, the majority of our pitching misery has come from the 5th starter position. With Penny there now, that’s less of an issue. 8th and 9th innings are shutdown. A healthy AlAl and Coke make the 6th and 7th innings a lot less scary. Even Below’s gotten pretty reliable in long relief.
I don’t think that makes us “favorites for the World Series,” since there’s some other really good teams out there, but it’s definitely making us favorites to win the pennant and give an opposing manager heartburn in a playoff series.
Eh
All that tells me is that our offense is carrying us through some terrible starts.
Pitching wins championships.
by metatron5369 on Aug 25, 2011 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Interesting
I don’t think you can legitimately give this to anyone but Justin Verlander. This team leans on him unlike no other.
The thing that irks me, is that this should be back to back MVP awards for the Tigers; Cabrera was robbed last year.
They didn't give it to a chump
Hamilton had a helluva year. And it’s not like it went to a NYY or BOS player, so we can’t even cry about that.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Verlander MVP
Without this guys stellar season there is no way they are where they are in the standings right now. Playing everyday does not enter into the equation in his case. The MVP is for the player with the most overall impact on the fate of of the team. Verlander has had the most impact on the fate of the team – no question
I think it's JV, obviously
but I think a very, very strong case can be made for Avila. He’s been a workhorse behind the plate and a clutch hitter. The development of his defensive prowess, hitting, and game-calling have been nothing short of remarkable this year—the strides he’s made have been astonishing. Simply put, I just don’t think the Tigers are anywhere near where they’re at right now without him. When you consider the difference between this and last, Avila’s improvements have been instrumental in the Tigers’ success on the field.
by (The)BallDontLie on Aug 24, 2011 2:03 PM EDT reply actions
Cabrera is definitely worthy
but this year I’d give it to Avila. Cabrera would have been my pick last year, but as you point out, Avila is an iron man out there. This year I think he’s the pick, among position players.
Verlander has a strong case – how many position players are worth 10+ wins over replacement? I’d guess if he keeps up at the rate he’s been at, Verlander will have been worth at least 10 wins above a replacement pitcher (who would give you roughly a .500 record in starts).
I can’t figure out whether the four letter network has just gotten worse, or if they’ve always been this bad but I’m finally old enough and wise enough to pick up on how awful they’ve always been.
WAR
JV is about 6.3 right now. A few more strong stars and he could finish around 7.5. That’s pretty damn impressive.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Cannot overlook
Valverde’s 37 for 37 and counting. Benoit (were Valverde hurt) would not have come close to that, nor could anyone else on their staff. Alex Avila is an amazing story! Had he been hurt the Tigers would have been toast! Jhonny Peralta has been incredible. Cabrera is Cabrera, You know what? This is a pretty darn good team!
The Case for Avila and Silent H
There’s no question Miggy and JV are studs and among the best players in baseball at their positions, but are they that much better than they were last season? Miggy is consistantly awesome and JV is better this year, but he was very good last season, too. So I have to ask, what is the biggest difference with this year’s team? To that end, I say Avila and Jhonny are the differences, and for that, they deserve more love than they’ve been getting.
Re: JV's "con"
JV has 803 PAs against him this year. Miguel has 548 ABs. So I say that everyone can take that argument and stick it.
(JV is my answer, although I love me some Avila, and of course Miguel)
To fairly make this argument
I think you would have to add the defensive chances for them as well to accurately portray how much of the game they are truly involved in, but then, where does it end….we would be twisting numbers one way or the other forever….
by FarAwayLionFan on Aug 24, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Triple Crown
I’m loving that this is the second year that we’ve been able to track a possible Triple Crown winner. More so that last year it was a batter, and this year a pitcher. I think if Verlander wins that, he’s a shoo-in for AL MVP.
Of course, this post is about TIGERS MVP. In which case, I think it’s Vmart. He’s turned this offense around. Miguel gets PITCHED TO now. He gets on base for Avila and Peralta. He does it all. Except run.
I really really wanted to vote Avila, but seeing as he is a cyborg, I think he’s disqualified.
Last Triple Crown Pitcher
2006 Johan Santana = MIN 19-6, 2.77, 245 SO
Verlander Currently = DET 19-5, 2.28, 212 SO
hmmmmmmmmm…. And that doesn’t include 0.88 WHIP, .185 AVG, a no-hitter, and 4 CGs to date.
Voted for JV
Although I think it is a close one between him, Avila and Valverde. Verlander has done a good job coming up with clutch wins after a loss. Gotta show love for Valverde though, I mean come on 37/37 says it all. Avila deserves a ton of credit too though. It’s incredible how much of a beating this guy takes behind the plate and still plays as much as he does. I think Victor coming here really helped out Avila having him switch to a heavier bat. Avila is tough as nails and I hope we have him around for at least another 5-7 years.
Go Lions, Red Wings, Tigers, Pistons and Sparty
I wish
"all of the above" was an option, it sure would have made voting easier :)
"But the point is, finger-pointing is just what sports fans do when something doesn't go right." -- Kurt Mensching
by RealityIsOptionable on Aug 24, 2011 2:59 PM EDT reply actions
Verlander 2011
I can understand making a case for Ellsbury, but the title of the award makes me go Verlander because he’s the most VALUABLE to the team. Boston would still rake with Nook Logan in CF.
I’d also vote Avila for co-MVP of the team. Filling the catcher slot like that is totally disgusting. My girlfriend said she would break up with me for Alex, and I told her that would be OK with me.
JV
Justin can single handedly carry the team. The contribution of hitters is more directly affected by the guys hitting around them. If no one is on base in front of Cabby he doesn’t contribute as much because he can’t drive in runs. And if no one hits well behind him it doesn’t matter if he gets on base himself. It’s usually a team effort to score runs.
Verlander
The dude is a stud and wins just about every time he pitches. He takes pressure off the offense. And to say that he’s only pitching every fifth day isn’t exactly a fair statement. He directly affects the game before and after he pitches by not needing no stinking bullpen.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Glad to see Avila get mentioned
After I requested this in comments of yesterdays recap. For me its Avila… I think the only reason Avila isn’t in the national conversation is because WAR undervalues catchers and for whatever reason fangraphs shows him as a minus defender
MVP voters biased against starters
Agree Verlander deserves to be MVP if he continues his pace. MVP voters have not selected a starter since Clemens in 1986, Blue in 1971 and McClain and Gibson in 1968 as both MVP and CY’s. Several relievers selected including Eckersley in ’92, Henandez in 1983, and Fingers in ’81. So no double pitcher winner since 1992 and no starter since 1986 could mean no one was that good or the voters did not consider pitching an MVP deserving award. I would more suspect the latter reason.
Verlander
Gotta be Verlander. He’s the highest by WAR, he anchors our pitching staff and he’s absolutely critical to this team’s playoff ambitions.
"Aside from the stuff I haven’t been diagnosed for yet, I don’t have a problem."- Phil Coke
Contributor, Bless You Boys
Our posts were about five seconds apart
and they both mentioned WAR and playoff chances. Spooky!
by frisbeepilot on Aug 24, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Some semantics
It always strikes me around this time of year what “MVP” means. It stands for most valuable player, of course, but… what does that actually mean? It could be…
- best overall statistical season in traditional categories
- player most instrumental in getting a team to the playoffs
- highest WAR (for the advanced stat-heads)
- most irreplacable player on any team, in some way
Some of these categories are straight-up calculable, others are a little more squishy. We’ve seen much-debated anomalies in awards recently — Jeter’s GGs, Felix’s Cy, and I still think Alan Trammell should’ve been the ‘87 AL MVP, screw you George Bell. And of course we can all talk about the East Coast Bias™ until we’re blue in the face.
I’m going to split the difference and say, for me, it’s a combination of all four of the above. I know Andre Dawson won an MVP for a last-place team (Cal Ripken got close), and if they have stupendous seasons, I have no problem with that. I gotta say, though, for me, it’s JV for Tiger and AL MVP; my top five Tigers at this point, in order, would be JV, Cabrera, Avila, Valverde, Peralta.
I have to echo what BengalsNme said above, though: there are a lot of darn good players on this team.
My thoughts on an MVP...
is how good the team would be WITHOUT that player. While most of the Tigers mentioned have had great seasons, if one went down, it would not totally sink the team. Cabrera would hurt, but VMart would probably fill his role, and the team would be respectable, and the others would have even less impact if they went down. Except JV. Look at the numbers for the “5th starter” and double it if JV were not there….Tigers would be fighting the Royals and Twins to stay out of the cellar. That’s an MVP…
How in the hell was Bautista not in the discussion?
He’s clearly been the best position player in the AL this season. ESPN is a farce.
Anyway, as for the Tigers’ MVP I voted for Verlander. I’d love to see him get some votes for MVP, but I don’t think it’s going to happen. Even though a starting pitcher influences more at-bats over the course of a season than a position player, the MVP award is just traditionally “best position player”.
Good point.
Bautista’s a monster. An absolutely frightening, vicious beast. (But apparently a really nice guy.) Imagine if he was a Yankee. Jeebus.
by frisbeepilot on Aug 24, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
JV MVP
Traditionally it’s the best position player but once a decade or so special things happen from a pitcher. Tigers would be down and out.
I choose other
Only because Verlander doesn’t need my vote to win this.
So many players on this team are valuable and are irreplaceable. Take anyone one of the them off the roster, and we’ll be hurting bad. So my votes go to Valverde, Benoit, AJax, and Boesch.
Benoit has 1.83 ERA and 0.93 WHIP since May 20th.
Valverde 0.59 ERA and 0.94 WHIP in save situations.
We probably wouldn’t be in 1st place without this dynamic duo. If we lost just 33% of the 1 run games that we won, we’d have 7 fewer wins and be in 3rd place.
AJax’s D has been unreal. There is no way to measure how unreal he’s been.
Boesch he’s been a great complimentary player. He’s also a MVP contender when he’s swinging a hot bat.
Alex for MVP
WAR change from Detroit catchers (including Avila) in 2010 has to be the largest improvement of any position on the field. JV has taken his routine brilliance up a peg, but he was already a stud. I bias value where we have improved, especially when it doesn’t involve spending a bunch of money on a FA.
With Laird or any of the available catchers (sorry, Victor – you are a DH) on the market, I can’t see where the Tigers would be where they are today.
Wait… Can I vote for Leyland as MVP? Most Valuable Pack-a-day-smoker?
Guillen says‚ "¿Que?"
Alex for MVP
There’s a solid case to be made here, given that he’s been worth more than Cabrera has (by WAR) and he’s a position player.
"Aside from the stuff I haven’t been diagnosed for yet, I don’t have a problem."- Phil Coke
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Aug 24, 2011 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bless You Boys
Related FanShots on Bless You Boys
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
- Giancarlo Stanton misses cutoff man, and Logan Morrison is thankful he did (Video)
- Snoop Dogg delivers memorable first pitch at U.S. Cellular Field
- The Juice: Mesoraco’s grand slam helps Reds complete four-game sweep of Braves
- Please hold: Indians’ Joe Smith jumps the gun on relief appearance
