2006 vs. 2011: Which Tigers do you prefer? (Part 1)
On paper, the Tigers entered this season looking like they had their best team since 2007. (You could debate whether to use 2008 instead, as on paper that club looked great. It just didn't perform on the field.) With midseason trades for Wilson Betemit, Doug Fister and -- yes -- Delmon Young, the Tigers found another gear by the end of August and cruised to their first division title since 1987.
So some have brought up the question: Is this club better than the 2006 version? An obvious caveat is that it might be too early to ask that question if you believe a team must have postseason success to truly be considered great. We might have to wait a few weeks -- we hope -- to learn how deep these Tigers can go in the playoffs to make a true results-based comparison. However, we are two days away from knowing their win total. A sweep of the Indians would result in matching 95-67 results for the two iterations.
But I like to compare the players to answer the question. So today I'm going to do a 2 part series exploring how the 2006 and 2011 Tigers compared. The first part will be pitching, both starting and relieving. The second part will be position players. Then you can put it all together and decide which club you think is better.
The 2006 Tigers allowed fewer runs. Their ERA+ (normalized for league, season and park conditions, with 100 being average) was 119 while the 2011 club's ERA+ was 101. Is 2006 the runaway winner? Maybe. Maybe not.
STARTING PITCHING
2006 rotation ERA: 4.00: Top 5: Justin Verlander, Kenny Rogers, Nate Robertson, Jeremy Bonderman, Zach Miner.
2011 rotation ERA: 4.11: Top 5: Justin Verlander, Doug Fister, Rick Porcello, Max Scherzer, Brad Penny
But it's not that easy, is it?
What the World Series Tigers had was consistency. What they did not have was the incredibly high level of pitching that Justin Verlander gives you every time he takes the mound, or that Doug Fister has given since arriving in Detroit. In fact, 2006's leading ERA was the 3.63 of a rookie Verlander. Lefties Nate Robertson and Kenny Rogers both weighed in at 3.84. Jeremy Bonderman finished at 4.08 and Zach Miner 4.84. The rotation's quality start percentage was 54%, with the top four rating: Robertson (63%), Verlander (60%), Rogers (58%), Bonderman (56%). The FIP and xFIP were almost identical at about 4.33.
This year, we have a clear Cy Young winner in Verlander, who currently leads the pitching triple crown and has a 2.84 ERA and 4.39 K/BB ratio. In Detroit, Fister's ERA is 1.79. (It's 2.83 total.) We then have Rick Porcello and Max Scherzer checking in with mid-4 ERA, though both have better K/BB ratios than any 2006 starter but Bonderman. The rotation's QS% is 56%, led by Verlander (82%) and Fister (80%, 65% total). Porcello comes in at 60%, and Scherzer a below-average 50%. Finally, the FIP is 3.97 and xFIP 3.91 for the rotation.
However, one area you might wish to debate is that 2011 is much more pitcher friendly than 2006. So this year the QS% is 4% better than league average, while the Tigers were 9% better in 2006.
If you compare the 5 vs 5, I think you take 2006's team. Still if you're putting the top-four of the two rotations head to head for the playoffs, I think you have to 2011 because of the top two alone. Plus on any given night, Scherzer could strike out 10, and Porcello has the ability to keep teams to 1 or 2 runs. However, you might prefer having the four stable pitchers from 2006. They obviously worked fine in the first two rounds of the postseason.
BULLPENS
2006 ERA: 3.55. Main players: Closer Todd Jones, setup Fernando Rodney, 7th inning: Joel Zumaya; lefty: Jamie Walker
2011 ERA: 3.92. Main players: Closer Jose Valverde, setup Joaquin Benoit, 7th inning: Al Alburquerque, Ryan Perry; lefties: Phil Coke, Daniel Schlereth.
For much of this season, the Tigers' bullpen was like Jekyll and Hyde. In May, it was hard to find a pitcher you could trust. Joaquin Benoit was falling apart. Jose Valverde earned a couple of losses. Brad Thomas was bad, Ryan Perry wasn't good. I could go on and on. Yet while we sit here looking back at the season there's a remarkable stat. Detroit is 71-5 when leading after six innings. They are undefeated when leading after seven innings: 76-0 after the seventh, and 82-0 after eighth. Valverde is 47-for-47 in save opportunities. Call me crazy, but aren't those the kind of stats you're looking for in a bullpen?
In 2006, Todd Jones was the closer. Fernando Rodney was the setup! I'm not sure if I need to say more. Jones had six blown saves out of 43 opportunities. OK, that's obviously a bit unfair, and Rodney actually had a pretty good season.
Of course, if you want to look a little deeper, 2006 gave us the enjoyable Joel Zumaya pitching at his peak. Jamie Walker pitched incredibly well, much better than the lefties on this year's club. In 2011, the lefties are a bit questionable. Daniel Schlereth walks too many, and Ryan Perry has been hideous at times.
Here's another way of looking at things: inherited runners. The 2011 Tigers allow 34% of inherited runners to score, 4% worse than league average. In 2006, 37% of inherited runners scored, 3% worse than league average. So neither team was great there.
How about xFIP? 4.22 in 2011, 4.63 in 2006. Or this year strikes out about an extra batter per nine innings, but also walks an extra batter per nine innings. But again, different eras.
Again, I still come away preferring the bullpen as it is this year. The lock-down late innings is the difference maker for me, luck driven or not. But 2006 was pretty solid, too, even in a tougher run environment.
CONCLUSIONS
Even considering the run environment, I guess I'm just a big fan of 2011. It's hard not to like a club with a Cy Young pitcher on the staff I guess. Maybe that's thanks to the efforts of four or five pitchers at the most. I don't know. So I can certainly see why you'd choose 2006.
Which team's pitching staff do you prefer? What differing stats or reasons do you use?
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look at it in two ways
These stats do not mean a thing.
2006 was a solid year, we had Bonderman with his 1st inning hitters, Nate Robertson-inconsistent, Verlander-very young, Kenny “gambler” Roger-good.
2011-very shaky bullpen
BEnoit-looked like a disaster,
Verlander and only Verlander solid-rest up in the air.
come trade deadline everything changes-Fister comes in, the other guys Scherzer and Porcello have glimpses of great pitching potential-but they settle down to become solid contributors behind JV and DF. Brad Penny threw himself out but we all knew it would be awesome if he won 11 games before the season started and that is exactly what we got.
the 2011 bullpen is much better compared to 2006. Valverde, Benoit, AA, Schlereth, coke, Perry are also the reason behind the surging Tigers in the second half.
Look at those comeback wins and see their contribution.
Offense no question-2011 is way ahead, Cabrera, VMart, AA, best batting lineup, with gr8 contributions from Mags, Peralta, Santiago, Betemit, Kelly, Rayburn.
Jekyll and Hyde season-Inge, Rayurn.
After all star game 2006 team vs 2011 team.
In sports it is said how do u close the game and win-does not matter if u lead in the second, third or 4th quarter. You have to stomp on the opponents and charge towards the finish line. the 2011 Tigers did it an 2006 could not.
Hence 2011 Tigers are way, way better than the 2006 Tigers.
I disagree about 2011 Bullpen being superior
We did not have a 7th inning guy this year.
In 2006 Zumaya was brilliant.
And I would take Jamie Walkers 2006 season over any of the 2011 bullpen Lefties.
Sure Schlereth has had a few good games but he melted down more often than not
And Ryan Perry has been a disaster. I cringed almost every time he entered a game
2011 Verlander is the difference
The reason I prefer 2011 pitching staff is simple, Justin Verlander. For most of the season we all knew that every fifth day not only would possibly end a losing streak, but there was potential for something really, really special. Anyone that visits this site regularly is a big enough baseball fan to understand how rare a no hitter is. Yet I am guessing that every single time that JV took the mound after that special Saturday in Toronto we all secretly thought “He’s gonna do it again”.
And though he only actually through the one no hitter he did not disappoint the faithful. Not since 1976 when Mark Fidrych was patting down the mound, talking to the baseball and selling out stadiums all across the country have I seen a Detroit Tiger pitcher generate such excitement.
I fully understand that the 2006 Bullpen was superior to 2011, especially through June. But once Benoit came around, the late innings seemed secure. At times there was Todd Jones like drama with Valverde, but let’s not fotrget he did not blow a single save. The 2011 Bullpen may not have been Zumaya / Rodney / Jones, but I felt pretty comfortable when Joaquin and Jose took over. And once Coke returned to the Bullpen it seemed that all the fringe guys pitched a little better. David Purcey the lone exception.
2006 was exciting because we were all so surprised. We got a lot of mileage out of grizzled veterans like Kenny Rogers and the team was infused wth the youthful promise of the future with the Verlanders, Zumayas, and Grandersons.
This year was different because we EXPECTED the 2011 Tigers to compete for the Central Division Title.
Justin Verlander made them Grrrreat
It's really hard to not be excited...
With the potential of Fister and Verlander as 1-2. I really like my chances knowing that in a 7 game series, a team may have to see the twice each…
God ain't got no use for a 180 lb bag of sugar.
I agree...With JV and DF we can say we have the best in 2/5 games for sure.
I know Leyland will not Pitch JV in game 5 of ALDS, but I trust Scherzer and Porcello to keep the game close.
Does anyone have info on the Yankees potential lineups and Rays potential lineups please.
Yankees Rays
1) Sabathia 1) Price?
2)???
by spartynation on Sep 27, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
JV for MVP.
That is my reason. It may be biased, but watching the greatest pitcher in the game (currently) take the mound every 5 days is something wonderful. And then to top it off, we’ve seen Cy Young worthy performances from Fister these last 6 weeks. It’s remarkable. I had so much fun watching those two. Let’s hope they continue dominating through the post-season.
Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Fight!
by Brand New Hero on Sep 27, 2011 12:43 PM EDT reply actions
2011 staff better for post-season
The 2006 staff had more depth and was better for the regular season. In theory, this year’s staff is built better for post-season with a stronger front two and a more dominant closer. I say “in theory” because I can’t imagine anyone pitching better than Kenny Rogers did in 2006. I still voted for 2011 because I feel more confident going into the post-season this year than I did in 2006.
by LPanas on Sep 27, 2011 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
2011
the way this team has gone all American History X on the rest of the division has been a pleasure to watch
For the full season, 2006
For the second half, they’re about even.
Overall, the 2006 team had a far better pitching staff. One of the best in the league. The 2011 staff had one solid starter for the first half, and two for the second half. Rick and Max have been average, at best, this season. You can’t say enough about the addition of Doug Fister to the 2011 staff. He transformed the rotation, the pitching staff, the team, and their chances of success in the post season. He is what the team has needed ever since the magic wore off the boys of summer, 2006 version.
I don't care what the Chinese say, 2011 is the Year of the Tiger!
Was the 2006 rotation
really that much better?
The only above average season on the 2006 staff by war was Bonderman 6.1 Velander 3.1 Robertson 2.6 Rodgers 2.6 + junk
The 2011 staff by WAR Verlander 7, Porcello 2.5, Scherzer 2.4, Fister (with tigers only) 2.4 + Junk
2006 rotation 4.00/4.33/4.34 16.5 WAR
2011 rotation 4.08/3.97/3.91 15.9 WAR
06 was probably better because of the higher run environment they pitched in, but I don’t think the difference is as big as you are making it out to be. The big difference between the two squads is in run prevention, the 06 staff outperformed there peripherals by a significant margin, while the 2011 has underperformed compared to the results we would expect.
I definitely have to go with the 2011 team
Watching a pitcher like Verlander take the mound every 5th day is a luxury that most fanbases don’t have. It still makes me giggle every time he buckles a hitter’s knees with his curveball. Miguel Cabrera is a once-in-a-generation talent and it’s truly amazing watching him work at the plate. This team had a few more issues in certain areas (2nd base, 5th starter, etc.), but the top-end guys make the 2011 squad that much more enjoyable IMO.
2006
Because of the ‘pen. Verlander’s good, Fister is good- but they’re not going a full nine innings every night. And I don’t trust Papa Grande as much as everyone else- saves aside, he’s got a 3.68 FIP and a 4.13 xFIP with declining strikeout rate.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
Contributor, Bless You Boys
I agree
with you on not trusting Valverde, the strikeout rate is especially alarming. But I think FIP and xFIP overplay the issue. When it comes to high end relievers, the assumptions in FIP and xFIP just don’t seem to hold true, Valverde has enough history for me to conclude that his true talent BABIP is significantly better than average and he deserves credit for that.
For all the doubters and stats guys here.
Did anyone come up in 2006 with the stat that the Tigers will lose the World series because of fielding errors by the pitchers?
Really “I don’t trust Papa Grande as much as everyone else”
“I agree with you on not trusting Valverde, the strikeout rate is especially alarming.”
Come on Man!!
He is the best closer this year in the Major Leagues. Is he the best ever.NO..nobody can match Mariano Rivera. Papa Grande has been good and his record of consecutive saves says it all. look at Papelbon, Marmol, Franklin issues at Red Sox, Cubs, and St Louis.
We have the best closer in the game right now and all you doubters can make notes of FIP and xFIP.
I see you akin to someone expecting a tornado on a bright sunny day in the Midwest with no cloud in sight and temps at 100 F.Even when the club is doing good we have doubters scared of Tapa Bay, afraid Papa Grande is going to choke! Where is the respect?
Enough said.
Sometimes things happen and you have to except it.
I live in St Louis and have to hear it everyday.
2006 Tigers were better than St Louis, but St Louis won.
and those dam errors contributed in a big big way.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2641316
The 2011 pitchers
have shown fine fielding skillz. For that reason alone, I’ll take them over 2006.
"Some guy told me I should walk with the Lord. I'd rather walk with the bases loaded" Ken Singleton
For all Valverde and Detroit Bullpen haters.
WDFN Sean and Terp revealed an interesting statistic when a caller made this point.
“The Tigers are undefeated this season when they lead after 7th inning”.
We are left with two games and is there any other team that can say that?
Can we give due recognition when it is due?
In all seriousness
Valverde is a good closer, he is however not the best in baseball. It isn’t a stat guy, or a hater thing, he just isn’t. There isn’t really any debate about it, there a multiple guys who are simply better (See: Kimbre, Craig) and the fact that Valverde hasn’t blown a save (while awesome) doesn’t really change that. Do you remember Fernando Rodney in 2009 right? Todd Jones in 2000? those guys got a bunch of saves, were they great closers? Valverde is clearly better than both of those guys, but the point is that saves alone are not a great measure of talent, Valverde has also lost 4 games, mostly in spectacular, imploding fashion, 3 times he has given up 3 runs in an inning or less.
On another note I assume you are one of those guys who this Valverde doesn’t try as hard, or just doesn’t focus in non-save situations, how can you call a guy the best in baseball (at anything really) if he isn’t trying half the time.
Valverde is the best in my book
The ultimate measure of a closer is how well he closes. You can’t beat perfect. He’s got a 100% success rate closing.
I don't care what the Chinese say, 2011 is the Year of the Tiger!
Past performance
I can’t argue with that, but if I got to choose anyone to close game 7 of the world series, it wouldn’t be Valverde
Is Mariano the best closer ever?
If yes-how can it be-all he does is pitch one inning.
If No-how can you say no. He has 602 saves-beats Trevor Hoffman.
This is exactly the argument one finds here.
Is Valverde the best closer THIS YEAR (2011)-YES! YES!
Is Valverde the best closer EVER-NO and no one is talking about it either.
by spartynation on Sep 27, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Some guys need the added pressure
If you call the fire department, and you don’t have a fire, I don’t think the firemen will be very happy when they get to your house. You certainly won’t see them working hard if there’s no fire.
That's by no means intended to be insulting to firemen either.
I know they train hard and work hard to prepare for the worst.
Pressure
Jose has lost 3 or 4 games when he has entered with a tie. Is there not more pressure on a pitcher in a tie game than when he comes in with a 3 run lead
Depends on the closer and depends how important the game is
If the closer cares about saves and blown saves more than anything else, then a tie game isn’t going to motivate him much. It may sound selfish, but it’s kind of like playing poker with somebody else’s money. You really have nothing to lose. If the game is critically important, then that’s another story.
Keith
Beside any argument I have with your choice of simile (that somehow pitching in a tie game is like playing with house money), or the validity or your characterization of Valverde as solely motivated by saves.
Are you really ok with this? you can respect a player who’s 1st motivation is to accumulate saves, not help his team win games, but get saves, to the extent that he isn’t “motivated” in non-save situations, that is ok with you? I personally find the idea deplorable.
It's not deplorable
It’s just common human behavior.
Some people have crap attitudes when they aren’t winning. They’ll piss and moan when things aren’t going good. They are very poor losers and sometimes don’t bounce back well after a tough lose. Winning is all that matters to them. They want to win so bad, that losing is demoralizing to them. That’s your Phil Coke results oriented type pitcher.
Some people take losing with a grain of salt. They focus more on learning from their mistakes, so they can be better the next time. They are goal oriented and want to win, but they understand that losing is part of the process of achieving greatness. That’s your Jose Valverde and Justin Verlander type goal setters.
Some people are somewhere in the middle.
I voted 2011, but I think I want to change it to 2006...
After really thinking it through… I mean seriously, I fell in love with so many of the young pitchers on the roster in 2006, and Kenny Rogers was like the cherry on top.
President of the Tony Scheffler Fan Club

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