Victor Martinez' torn ACL leaves big question mark for Tigers
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 17, 2012 5:47 PM EST
in Detroit Tigers News
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PrintThis is what we know: Tigers switch-hitting designated hitter Victor Martinez tore the ACL in his left knee while working out on his own in Orlando late last week. The Tigers say Martinez's right leg slipped while working on lateral movement, causing his left leg to absorb too much weight in a bad position and resulting in the tear. Martinez had an MRI in Lakeland yesterday, confirming the tear. He will see Dr. Richard Stedman in Colorado next week, and will almost certainly have surgery. (If the name Stedman sounds familiar, he is the same surgeon who operated on both Clete Thomas and Grady Sizemore in the past, though that was a different kind of procedure.)
Other questions that might have come to the mind of Tigers fans with a good memory: Could this injury have been related in any way to the knee problems Martinez had last August? Recall, he hurt his left knee while trying to make a move to home plate. However, he only missed a few days and continued to hit well. The Tigers say he was checked out after the conclusion of the Tigers' season and cleared for offseason workouts. They do not believe it was related; instead, this was just a fluke injury.
The Tigers will not know any timetables until after next week. No one will know more until Dr. Stedman takes a closer look and does what he has to do, if he has to. They do not rule out Martinez returning by the end of the year; however, they do not expect it.
I obviously don't have to tell you that today we received some pretty bad news. Judging by some reactions on BYB, on Facebook, on Twitter, and likely elsewhere, I might have to tell you the world is not ending due to the loss of a designated hitter. Yes, Martinez was an important member of the club and provided a leadership role. But no, the team's 2012 season is not lost because of one injury.
Here's a link to our transcription of GM Dave Dombrowski's and head athletic trainer Kevin Rand's teleconference for full versions of quotes, as I'll mostly be summarizing what they said in the rest of this post.
The Tigers have options. GM Dave Dombrowski mainly spoke about the internal ones today, though he noted as soon as the news of Martinez's injury stated to spread numerous agents were already dialing him up to sell their clients.
You've been in the game a long time, you need to be resilient. After you feel sorry for yourself for a day or so, you move on, start looking at all your alternatives. Look at a club like St Louis. They lose Adam Wainright and go on to win the world series. We're a good club. Players will step up. We'll still have a good club.
Dombrowski noted that the Tigers have the roster flexibility to deal with this blow, and there's certainly truth to that. Don't tell me you were looking forward to seeing Delmon Young in the outfield or Ryan Raburn in ... well, the field. (And don't tell me you actually believe the Tigers will cut bridges with those players or leave them on the bench.) Moving either of those players to a DH role keeps their bats in the lineup, but minimizes the poor fielding. Meanwhile, you open up room for a better fielder like Andy Dirks to have increased playing time in the field. Unquestionably, it's a net loss. But it's not like you're subbing a replacement-level player for Martinez, either.
That said, I still find it more likely the Tigers would like to add a bat to the club. For the sake of posturing and the relationship with his players, Dombrowski has to tell reporters he's happy with his team even though the injury came as a "sock to the stomach." Fortunately, if you're looking to replace a player in your lineup, you could have a lot bigger problems than losing your DH. Plenty of players can still hit well even if their fielding keeps them off the diamond.
Dombrowski declined to discuss whether Detroit has insurance on Martinez's contract -- worth about $13 million in 2012 -- however the popular idea in the media is that the Tigers may receive half of that figure back. That should help them in signing a replacement.
MLB Daily Dish and MLB Trade Rumors explore some possible names if Detroit looks outside the organization.
I wouldn't bet on Prince Fielder, due to many reasons. For one, Dombrowski said the team may not be ruling out a long-term contract, but he would expect something shorter term. Further, he does not see any likelihood that first baseman Miguel Cabrera would leap across the diamond to third. Finally, though lower on the list, Prince Fielder and his father, Cecil, reportedly do not have a good relationship and following Cecil's big footprints in Detroit might be uncomfortable. Another unrealistic possibility is Manny Ramirez. So just, don't even go there, OK?
That leaves us with Johnny Damon -- loves the Red Wings! -- Vladimir Guerrero, maybe even Carlos Pena. Personally, of that group the latter two both interest me most. Of course, this may also give the Tigers added incentive to sign Cuban outfielder Yoenis Cespedes, too.
As for the loss of Martinez off the field, Dombrowski thinks that too much can be made of that in the media and by fans.
No question he's a great teammate, great in the clubhouse, and well respected. You miss a player like him, but I think ... we have other people that can do a good job leading in that regard. the real leader in the clubhouse is our skipper. We'll be fine in that regard.
We'll explore the candidates in further detail in the coming hours or days. But for the TL;DR group, let me just summarize: This is not a pleasant day, but the Tigers can deal with this, and are fortunate to play in a division with some wriggle room. It makes a World Series run more difficult, but it was far too early to discuss that anyway. Keep coming back to BYB for more news and analysis!
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Huge
Say what you want, Miggy needs that bat behind him. We’re not going to find that bat in or outside of the organization.
Time to really focus on getting the infield secured and maybe getting one more quality pitcher. Oswalt is looking better and better.
You are not going to get Pena
You are going to get Clete Thomas
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
Seriously, suggest this again...
And I will hunt you down. I don’t care if it might be true. It’s too much to handle right now.
by SweetLouDoubleU on Jan 18, 2012 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
Would be nice in the 2 or 3 spot.
Hit a home run or get on base for Miggy. Still leaves the question who bats behind him.
1. Jackson 2. Pena 3. Boesch/Young 4. Cabrera 5. Avila 6. Boesch/Young 7. Peralta 8. 2nd base 9. 3rd Base.
He'd probably slot in behind Miggy
You’re probably looking more at Jackson/Boesch/Young/Cabrera/Pena/Peralta/Avila/who really cares now
It's not all about BA. Pena does get on base
.357 OBP last season with the Cubs, .352 for his career. Out of the Tigers’ regulars in 2011, a.357 OBP would have placed him 4th on the team. And he bats left handed. Pena would be a good fit on a 1 year deal.
Vlad is an option, but Pena is younger, hits LH and put up better numbers, save for BA, across the board. If the Tigers are going to go outside the system for a DH, Pena is the first player I call.
I'm owner/editor of The Wayne Fontes Experience a deputy editor at Bless You Boys, host the Bless You Boys Podcast and co-host The Knee Jerks podcast.
That OBP is in the NL
With his power, you’re better off walking him to get to the light-hitting guy behind him. I just don’t buy Pena as a viable option.
Vlad > Pena
No it's not attributable to playing in the NL.
It’s pretty much his career number too, of which all but one season was in the AL.
2010 was a severe outlying season where his BABIP was as ridiculous as… well, as ridiculous as Austin’s was that year.
by thepartybird on Jan 17, 2012 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
Say what you will about Rob Deer, but he was a good hitter for his time.
Even when he hit .179 for the Tigers, his power made him almost average. .223 career ISOs don’t grow on trees.
Pena would be great for us – the question is how easily he could be traded when VMart comes back. Would he sign another 1 year deal after a relative “bounce back” season with the Cubbies?
by thepartybird on Jan 17, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
There aren't any better options
Other than a MLive-esque trade proposal.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
That's the third coming of Deer....the second is Adam Dunn
For 2012 season: ALEX RIOS is my new TONY PENA.
by JofpGallagher on Jan 18, 2012 7:18 AM EST up reply actions
How about...NOT a DH?
Realistically, they’re unlikely to find a replacement hitter as good as VMart. Part of the damage mitigation may be to improve defense. Boesch, Young, Raburn, and Cabrera could easily split the DH duties between them.
I think the Tigers can be open to replacing a DH with a DH but would be better served in a long-term improvement to the infield or outfield.
If there were reasonable IF or OF upgrade options to be had
We’d have had them already.
Making a deal now for an IF or OF just so that we can stick Raburn or Delmon at DH would be painful because the other GM would have all the leverage.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
Don't have to make the deal now.
Disagree. A panic move is obviously a bad idea, but a previously discussed trade could be more attractive to the Tigers now. The calculus has changed for the Tigers. Who they send to the bench (i.e. replacement value) has changed. Options that were not ‘reasonable’, may now be so.
I concur with your logic
Well put
by situationalbuntingapologist on Jan 17, 2012 11:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yup
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2012 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
Pena does hit 250 against rights with power
He does have a good eye at the plate. Valdamir still hits for average but is he too old now?
I like J Damon but we need a #5 hitter so he’s out. A trade is probably the best solution.
We need a hitter
Period. Get the best guy out there, regardless of lineup spot. It’s not like the top of our lineup is elite or anything either.
And it's not like Leyland's lineups are ideal anyhow
Most of the viewers here subscribe to newfangled numbers like OBP when constructing their lineup. I like Leyland, but the guy’s lineups are often made up of antiquated baseball logic, gut feelings, and duct tape.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
we approve of the duct tape part
the rest … ehhh … not so much.
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
That's one hit out of every four at bats
… to replace one hit for every three at bats. It doesn’t take a statistician to figure the magnitude of difference there.
He’s also old as hell, and would probably get injured if we put him in the field. I say no. No f-ing way. Let’s tighten up the defense and get some more quality pitching.
As for Johnny Damon… I’d be willing to give him a glance. Far more so than Pena. Damon is a consummate hitter and can always find a way on base. Just keep his rag-arm out of the outfield.
I like Damon too.
Not sure if anyone cares for his naked chin-ups in the clubhouse though.
I don't get how
Pena being old is relevant if you take a look at Damon, who’s older….Pena has more power and has actually done okay in our stadium, unlike Damon and he has a .350 OBP compared to Damon’s ,320-ish OBP, so he actaully gets on base more than Damon. Pena>Damon
"I will play tomorrow unless I am dead when I wake up" - Victor Martinez
Well...
…here’s the big M. Night Shyamalan-esque twist to the preseason I knew would happen.
At least it gives us something to talk about, eh?
unfortunatly
this is a “Lady In The Water” level twist, not a “Sixth Sense” twist
"I'm a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast food" - Ron Swanson
Now they almost have to sign Cespedes
And move delmon to the DH. Under any other circumstance I would be elated at the idea of taking the glove off of Delmons hand, but not at this cost.
Tired of generic music??? Exterminate All Rational Thought is here to help!
Has Cespedes ever faced MLB pitching?
"But the point is, finger-pointing is just what sports fans do when something doesn't go right." -- Kurt Mensching
by RealityIsOptionable on Jan 17, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
World Baseball Classic?
Doña of the fractured Venezuelan Mafia, haunted by the ghosts of Tigers past
"In baseball, there is what you expect and what you cannot expect, and after that there is what you cannot even imagine." --AG
Rebound! Look out, boys and girls, cuz here we go again!
by SabreRoseTiger on Jan 17, 2012 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Sample size?
Also, it’s essentially Spring Training, too.
by frisbeepilot on Jan 17, 2012 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
how about signing Fielder to a 1 year deal?
and look at incentives to maybe have a long-term deal beyond?
Fan of the Tigers ~ Lions ~ Red Wings! - Restoring Pride to Detroits Sports Teams
WIIM Mursak Leagues Wingedmule (88-86-36)) PoD Bench Leagues PackMules (7th)
Get better in 2012 Lions! - Thanks for a Great Season (10-7)
Not a chance in Hell
First: we’re on the “daddy’s list” — he’s already stated he won’t play for his dad’s former teams (which makes him as big of of an ass as his pappy);
Secondly: He’s looking for his long-term pay-day. What you’re proposing is the antithesis of that;
Thirdly: Cabrera is not moving back across the diamond. And Cabrera is a better hitter than Fielder anyways, and I’ll take his sober ass over Fielder’s fatty vegan ass any day.
Fielder is uber-expensive, and the Tigers are already pushing $110M in payroll
Fielder wants a long term deal. That’s not happening in Detroit.
Ilitch wants a World Series badly, but he does has payroll limits. But you never know, he could throw caution to the wind. If he does decide to go nuts on payroll, I’d bet more on a trade for an expensive, big hitting 3B or corner OF.
I'm owner/editor of The Wayne Fontes Experience a deputy editor at Bless You Boys, host the Bless You Boys Podcast and co-host The Knee Jerks podcast.
If he wanted an expensive 3B why didn't we bid on Ramirez?
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
Otherwise... Vlad Gurrerro or Johnny Damon for a DH spot could be a possibility...
this injury sucks bigtime
Fan of the Tigers ~ Lions ~ Red Wings! - Restoring Pride to Detroits Sports Teams
WIIM Mursak Leagues Wingedmule (88-86-36)) PoD Bench Leagues PackMules (7th)
Get better in 2012 Lions! - Thanks for a Great Season (10-7)
This sucks,
but luckily there are a handful of options left in the FA market.
I just wish we had the talent to replace VMart internally. I don’t care to look at Ryan Strieby, Clete Thomas, ect. Did Jamie Johnson get a Spring Training invite?
Who cares?
He’s a 4th OF at best.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, a 4th OF that will add Defense and Speed.
He might be a decent pinch runner and late game defense replacement.
I’d be pushing hard to work on that Dirks for Daniel Murphy trade now.
Grabbing Carlos Pena is a great idea too.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 17, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
4th OF adding defense and speed = pull your hair out when Leyland bats him 3rd
Let’s call it what it really is here.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 12:42 AM EST up reply actions
Eh
I don’t think he’s going to make the majors this year.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
No - Johnson isn't invited, but Justin Henry is
Henry had a better year in 2011 than Johnson. Less speed, but more versatility, higher BA and OBP. Power is non-existent for both.
Justin Henry could be Don Kelly if we didn’t already have Don Kelly. Unfortunately, Justin Henry is completely irrelevant to this discussion unless 1) We don’t address DH before Spring Training and 2) Henry lights the world on fire enough for Leyland to make irrational decisions and 3) Leyland decides to start Henry and move Young to DH.
That’s some crazy speculation.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
VICTOR will be back after the All-Star break.....
6 months unless there’s other damage and always the chance they can scope it and have him ready for opening day. If not I’d go after Vlad who is 36 and had a good season at Baltimore. Otherwise there’s always Ryan Strieby who is going to come into his own this year with a healed wrist. Or DH Delmon and play Dirks in LF which is probably what they’ll do.
I don't think we'll address this internally alone
We may move DY or RR to the DH role and sign a glove guy externally, but we won’t try to simply patch this problem with the likes of Strieby.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Never trust a Doctor named Black Bart
He has a torn ACL….. You can’t scope that…. Its tissue. It has to HEAL!
by Phenomenal Bob on Jan 20, 2012 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
Dirks defines replacement level
Baseball Geek
by StorminNormanCash on Jan 17, 2012 7:04 PM EST reply actions
whatever that means....
Dirks has good speed, a good arm, should hit around .280, and has LH power. Don’t step over a dollar to pick up a dime.
The first two of those are true.
The second two are definitely not, unless you mean sneaky (read: below average) power a la Santiago.
He’s better than replacement level, but his plate approach needs serious work for him to be a good player.
by thepartybird on Jan 17, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
Well...
If you define replacement level hitting as a 100 OPS+, Andy’s was 90 last year. He hit .251 with a .298 OBP in 235 plate appearances with Detroit. Don’t confuse shit with shinola.
100 OPS+ is average, not replacement level
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 17, 2012 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
that's OK, Dirks probably is replacement level
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 17, 2012 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
MLB is on STRIKE?
The term “replacement player” refers to just that….a non-union guy (scab) playing in a striking player’s place. I’m not opposed to license being taken in the interest of trying to sound “inside baseball” but this is just stupid.
And by the way, Dirks is a “4th outfielder” because he was a rookie and had 3 seasoned pros blocking him. His “approach at the plate” was fine considering his first go through the stadiums and pitching staffs he faced and having zero guidance from Legendary Lloyd and his brain-dead boss.
Easy there. "Replacement-level" means something different than "replacement" in the scab sense.
Kurt isn’t just being hyperbolic. “Replacement-level” in sports commonly refers to players who are barely major-league level in terms of production. They’re easily replaceable because there is a large supply of them hanging around AAA ball combined with low demand for open 25-man roster spots.
The sabermetric term WAR or WARP (Wins Above Replacement Player) is something you’ll get used to hearing on a lot of baseball blogs.
Not interested
I been around baseball blogs for years and just laugh at these new stats that supposedly define and predict performance….meaningless drivel is what it is but to each his own.
I ain’t “Steven” whoever he is and doubt I been “GROSBERG’D” whatever that is. You chatty-cathys get on with your hand-wringing now and don’t let the WARP get ya. LOL!
Not to be a dick
But you won’t get far around here disregarding statistics like that. They all have their pros and cons, but none of them are “meaningless drivel.”
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
Did you walk
uphill both ways in 10 feet of snow to Tiger Stadium to watch the Tigers play?
Just curious where you get the idea that Dirks will hit 280 with power…since you know he has never hit over 280 over the course of an entire year, nor had over 15 HR’s over an entire year. Maybe that new fangled statistic Batting Average has you confused though….
Bennett Park
Haven’t made it to the new stadium yet…
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Minors numbers are a little different
They tell you stuff but you can’t base sole judgement on them…Miggy had a .286 minor league average and never hit more than 10 homers. Now, Dorks isn;t even close to Cabby but with some playing time, 15 HR is a possibility
"I will play tomorrow unless I am dead when I wake up" - Victor Martinez
They don't fully.b ut they tell you a lot
unlike wins,which you probably look at still. It;s dumb not to accept at least some of the stats, not saying you have to believe a 100% but to some extent these are proven stats.
"I will play tomorrow unless I am dead when I wake up" - Victor Martinez
Steven are you back?
First we get the Strieby over-confidence then the elusive Dirks average and power combo?
You've been GROSBERG'D!
I have a grand idea: let's win a game.
by 13194013 on Jan 17, 2012 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dirks is a fourth outfileder
Nice player to have around, but sure as hell is not a starter.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2012 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
On the bright side
If you have to replace an everyday starter, it’s easier to replace a DH than anybody else.
/desperately trying to not curl up and weep
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
The biggest problem is that
VMart’s bat made up for much of the line-up deficiencies we had, especially at 3B and 2B vs right handed pitchers.
I’m not nearly as comfortable with the platoons now. I think those weaknesses will be exposed more. So this impacts our line-up in more than one way.
Guys like VMart and Cabrera are like umbrellas.
They protect the hitters around them. That protection causes a chain reaction too.
I'm not sure how much I buy into the protection concept. I think it's overstated.
Even if it does turn out to be a huge consideration, I don’t doubt that Avila, Peralta, and [whoever is hitting well between Raburn and Boesch] can protect Miggy in the lineup almost as well as VMart did. This isn’t the early/mid 2000s Giants where only one or two hitters in the lineup were worth anything.
by thepartybird on Jan 17, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
Do you remember the Tigers in the second half of 2010?
Maggs went down with his broken ankle and Boesch had to protect Miggy, but he had a horrible 2nd half.
VMart was vital to the Tigers’ AL Central championship run. He hit roughly .390 after Miggy was walked last year, which was 108 times.
Detroit Tigers: 2011 AL Central Champs
Protection, maybe not by definition
If VMart gets on base 200 times and drives in 100 runs per year, that’s not going to just help himself, but it’s going to help the guys around him. Scoring runs takes team work. It’s not individuals playing homerun derby. Each guy in the line-up contributes either positively, neutrally, or negatively to guys around them. Victor is a double positive contributor, he not only gets on base, but he gets hits and plates runners.
So True
This depresses me more.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Time to call on the Angels to see what they want for one of their boppers
Maybe DD can put together a reasonable package for Trumbo and one of their middle infielders?
"All aboard! There is plenty of room."
Brennan Boesch Bandwagon Conductor
I don't think Trumbo is a good solution
I think he’s a fine player, but you’d be trading for a guy that’s 26 years old with one year of big league experience. You’d be paying big for the cheap years, team control, and the future that he offers. We don’t really need a young, cost controlled quality 1B unless you’re looking to cause more defensive liabilities and log jams. Abreau would make more sense in the fact that he’d be a whole lot cheaper and fits the needs of the team pretty well.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Fucken shitty news like this ...
… is why ya gotta take advantage of years like ’06. We had the team, we got lucky facing the Cardinals in the WS, it as all lined up. Instead, we put on the collar.
When will the Tigers get back to the WS? Our budget is so freaking thin, our front line of players so thin … just an injury or two puts the entire year in jeopardy.
It’s not like the Yankees or Rangers or BoSox of ‘12. For the Tigers, lose ONE guy like Victor and the entire dynamic changes. It’s why this team has won a lousy 4 times in its entire history. It’s why no matter how good our team appears, we can only get one WS title out of that group. Because after all is said and done it is paper thin. No HOF players from the ’84 team, and only one from the ’68 team. PAPER THIN.
And once again … we are paper thin. The Tigers finally win a Division, finally appear to be much better? It doesn’t last.
I’m also guessing the response will be lmited, if any response at all. It’ll be Clete in the 3 all over again. That’ll be the freaking response. While the team is poised, we’ll get NO response. Not one that’ll allow the team to challenge.
Bad news. But if you’re a Tiger fan, you’ve been taking this for most of your life.
When a team is PAPER THIN, everything has to go right to truly contend. The season hasn’t even started, and things aren’t going right. And the response will be nothing.
Get ready for Raburn in the 5. And finishing in second place or a quick exit in the playoffs.
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
We got Verlander and Cabrera
That’s a solid foundation. Not paper thin. VMart was only the DH, but probably the best DH in the league. He made our team about 4 or 5 wins better. If we add a couple of bats, like an outfielder and a 3B, we won’t miss him much at all. It will take 2 guys to replace him though.
I appreciate your optimism K-A
But this is the team that had Clete Thomas in the 3 for weeks in response to an injury.
DD isn’t going to add “a couple of bats.” Your entire optimism is built on a wish sandwich. If and when DD does something. Here’s a news alert: he’s not going to.
Victor is till in the budget. The response, such as it is, will be to hit Raburn or somebody like that in the 5.
The team isn’t going to “add a couple of bats”. It isn’t going to add a 3Bman. It isn’t going to add anyone that costs any money. It’s going to go into the season pretending that Raburn in the 5 will be just fine. Just like it pretended that hitting Clete in the 3 for weeks in the middle of a pennant race was just fine.
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
I'll eat my sneakers if we don't do anything like your suggesting.
We could add a free agent DH bat right now for a few million. That’s simple and within any budget constraints. We’ll likely relieve Don Kelly in his platoon at 3B sometime during the season also. It might not happen until July, but I can guarantee that we add another infielder sometime between now and September. We could easily trade for Wilson Betemit again.
On the bright side, we won’t have to worry about who sits during those 9 Inter-league games in NL parks.
I didn't say the Tigers would do nothing
After all … hitting Clete Thomas in the 3 for weeks was “something”.
It’ll be a signing of some guy who is a wish sandwich. Someone we hope will have his final good 3 months of his career. See: Huff or Damon.
Meanwhile, the HOF potential careers of Verlander and Cabrera will be one more year wasted.
Victor’s injury is very disappointing. But not nearly as disappointing as the Tigers response to it will be.
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
I understand getting upset about this
but you are acting like we lost both Miggy and Verlander…
VMart was a big loss, but of our top players he is probably the easiest to replace.
it isn’t like we are going to suddenly be in last place, we will probably still make the playoffs and once you are there anything can happen…I mean the Cards won in 06.
God the Cards piss me off
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2012 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
I live in Missouri.
I’m so happy Pujols left.
by SweetLouDoubleU on Jan 18, 2012 2:09 AM EST up reply actions
I don't hate the Cards
But God they piss me off. They’re like cockroaches.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
This is not the same team as it was back then
Back then we had something like a $140 Million payroll. We had several high dollar guys on the payroll that weren’t contributing or pulling their weight (Sheffield $14M, Willis $10M, Bonderman $12.5M, Robertson $7M, Guillen $10M, and Ordonez $18.9M).
Another difference is that the bottom of our line-up had:
7th – Inge at 3B
8th – Laird at Catcher
9th – Adam Everett at SS
Not many places to put Clete Thomas, even though he was here just for his glove.
Magglio was horrific for most of the season. Guillen and Marcus Thames stunk and couldn’t stay healthy. Granderson and Polanco were sub par. Everyone but Cabrera was having a poor season.
Right now we have a younger core of players with something to prove. Boesch, Avila, Peralta, AJax, and Young are in their primes and have a lot to be motivated about. None of them have gotten that big multi-year contract yet and none of them have won a world series. This team is not paper thin at all. A good wish sandwich is probably all this team needs to add. We might have to eat a crap sandwich while we wait, but most wishes do eventually come true.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 17, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
You had me until the last sentence Keith.
Leonardo DiCaprio is dating my wish right now. I pretty sure it’s never coming true.
A few of my wishes over the years
A great starting pitcher: Verlander. Check.
A good CF: Granderson, then traded for AJax. Check.
A good catcher: Avila. Check.
A decent Shortstop: Peralta. Check.
Don’t won’t to waste a wish on DH.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 17, 2012 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
Keith, I think you meant that you'll eat sneaker if we DO anything like Single is suggesting
As you have it worded, if things play out like SingleDigit suggests, you’ll be eating sneakers.
Verbally binding contract. Please post pictures or video.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
What is it with him and Kurt eating their shoes?
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
And if you use em long enough they're tenderized!
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
I made a grammer mistake
there should be a comma in there.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 18, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Every team is "paper thin"
Even the Yankees have to send A.J. Burnett to the mound in a critical playoff game.
No team has a perfect lineup, bench players who can be slotted in for starters with no drop in production, a shut-down bullpen and a starting rotation of aces. That’s because a bench player who’s good enough to be a starter will go play someplace they can start. A #5 SP who’s an ace will go play someplace he can make #1 ace money. If a middle or long reliever were awesome he’d probably be starting or closing.1
The Tigers had four players receive MVP votes this year. (Yankees had 5, Rangers 4, Red Sox 3.) We’ve got two players on this team who, extrapolating their current performance, will be no-doubt to maybe even first-ballot Hall of Famers. We made the ALCS with a full trainer’s room.
1 – Yes, there are exceptions to this. See: Phillies, Philadelphia: Starting rotation of.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
This really sucks.
It’s not the worst thing that could’ve happened but it’s close. Before this I had a hard time imagining a scenario where the Tigers don’t win the division this year. Now, it seems like a real possibility if a couple of other dominoes fall. Victor was one of the only real certainties on the offensive side. There are questions about nearly everyone else.
Cespedes may help and he may completely suck. I agree with a lot of others about Carlos Pena being a solid replacement…but then how do you dh him when he’s a far superior defender at 1B? Would Cabrera be open to dh’ing more regularly?
Now I’d be much more accepting of a sell-the-farm type of trade involving Turner and Castellanos to get a difference make at 2B, 3B or OF…..just that pesky problem of not many guys available. I really don’t want to punt a year in a weak division in the middle of the Cabrera/Verlander window….but maybe that’s just my inner Chicken Little talking.
Pena
Does have some mad glove skills
by situationalbuntingapologist on Jan 17, 2012 11:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
PUNT?!
We won the division by 15 freaking games last season. VMart is less than a third of that margin and nobody else in the division got significantly better. A ton of dominoes would have to fall for the Tigers to not contend this year.
The Tigers are not a 95 win team.
I think a lot of things went right last year that allowed us to win by 15 games. Victor was not a question mark. Right now everyone not named Cabrera is a question mark offensively.
The division is so weak it may not matter, but there are a lot of regression candidates on the roster. Perhaps punt was a bad choice of words…let slip away may be better.
I'M GLAD YOU SAID THIS
TIME TO GO TO THE PYTHAG!
So if you go by first order wins, Detroit’s run differential was worth 88.8 wins, as compared to Chicago in second place with 75.3. If you go by second order wins (adjusted for what our offense and pitching should have produced) Detroit’s run differential was worth 93.4 wins, as opposed to Chicago’s 80.6. If you go by third order wins (adjusted by underlying numbers and strength of schedule) Detroit’s run differential was worth 91.7 wins, while Chicago only had 79.7.
Victor Martinez was worth 2.9 fWAR and 2.9 bWAR. The difference between Chicago and Detroit, by each win type, is listed below
Actual: +16 wins over Chicago
First Order: +13.5 wins over Chicago
Second Order: +12.8 wins over Chicago
Third Order: +12 wins over Chicago
In conclusion, I think we’ll be okay. Especially if we find a replacement for V-Mart.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2012 11:40 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That's nice David, but all of those calculations are conditioned on actual production
from last year. I’m more concerned with changes in production, not the degree of luckiness for a given level of production.
If half the team hits worse this year, Fister and Verlander come back to earth, Maurer and Morneau get healthy, Dunn and Rios hit, etc., then things will look at bit different.
I still think we’re the frontrunner because, as you mention, our competition is basically a steaming pile of cow patties, but now I can at least envision a scenario where next year doesn’t go too well.
I think achievement and under/over performance usually balance out over the course of 162 games
For every Avila you expect to regress, there’s a Jackson that I think will be better. I would say we may see worse years from Avila, Peralta, Verlander, and Fister. I am optimistic about seeing better years from Inge (can it be worse?), Jackson, Boesch, Porcello, and Scherzer. We should be better at 2B by avoiding the poor production from the Rhymes and Sizemore experiment. We might be better at #5 SP with just about anything other than Brad Penny.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
And third order wins solve for regression (I believe)
But yeah, you’ve got a point.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
I generally agree with you, but ...
there is basically one guy on the roster I expect to do better next year, and that is Max Scherzer. 2B should also be marginally better. It’s possible the other guys are better, but I think we saw more or less a typical year from Jackson and Porcello. Right now I would also expect about equal production out of the faceless fifth starter we’ll be trotting out there.
Boesch is a big wild card in my mind. He could be awesome or horrible. Also add Valverde to the list of guys likely to be worse.
So what you're saying is...
that all those numbers mean I was right when I said the Tigers were going to be fine last summer when we were still behind the Indians and had a negative run differential? Awesome.
On a more serious note, I think we’ll be OK as long as the pitching staff doesn’t fall off a cliff this year. We still have the best rotation and setup/closer combination in the division.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
O-WEE-O
Maaaaaa-glio
I know you all are going to think this is an awful idea, but why not re-sign Mags? 500 grand plus a bonus (he was good when he was right, even last year). Have him spell a part-time dh, occasional OF, split up the bats between him and the others who are already here…
I mean seriously – Damon, Pena? Give me Mags at 1/10th the price any day of the week.
I like Magglio a lot
but he has problems hitting right handed pitchers. He’s great vs Lefties though and would work great in a platoon with somebody. I don’t think we have enough roster spots for another platoon though.
correct me if I'm reading this wrong...
but I was looking at a few things over at FanGraphs… and it looks like Vmart had a WAR of 2.9 last year, while Pena had a WAR of 2.6.
Now, I would have guessed Vmart’s would be way higher than 2.9… but if those numbers are both accurate, wouldn’t Pena seem to be a very good fit for us? Sure, he won’t hit for as high of average or knock in as many runs… but he’d at least be an adequate replacement for a year.
Raburn-Santiago '12
My guess is
that the time VMart spent at DH hurt his WAR.
by frisbeepilot on Jan 17, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
Yup
Pena was worth 15.6 runs with the bat, and V-Mart was worth 23.5 runs with the bat.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2012 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
Saving 2012
Here is what saves 2012 without blowing up the farm system:
Sign Kotchman to play 1B (.394 OBP vs. RHP’s and gold glove defense). I guess 3.5 million with a team option would get that step done. Miggy goes on sabbatical becoming the DH. If Victor can make it back by 2013 don’t renew Kotchman and return Miggy to 1B. If not, renew Kotchman for 2013. This locks the AL Central.
Then to advance past the first round of the playoffs in 2012 sign Oswalt to a one year deal ($8 to 10 Million). Then you could have a chance to outpitch the competition while giving you the option to deal Oswalt for mid season help if/when Turner, Smyly, Oliver is ready.
Get well soon, Victor.
I would not be okay with moving Miggy to full time DH
not even for a year… the guy has worked hard to become one of the better defensive 1B in the AL, and being moved to DH can seriously mess with a players timing and rhythm at the plate. there are many examples of that happening… look at Dunn in Chicago last year. hell, look at Sheffield when we tried to turn him into a DH here.
Raburn-Santiago '12
Where is
Handsomerob to tell you that player position has absolutely zero to do with offensive production? Moving Miggy to DH should have zero effect on his production at the plate…
Sarcasm font should be in there somewhere.
I don't remember ever saying something like that
If anything, I lean the opposite way because I believe that a good portion of success at this level is attributable to a player’s mental focus and well-being. If I remember correctly, I picked Jhonny to have a breakout year last season because he was moving back to shortstop full-time.
And I wouldn’t advocate making Miggy the full-time DH if a guy like Pena or Kotchman gets signed either. I buy the argument that his defense might take a hit if he DH’s for an entire season. However, I wouldn’t mind seeing him DH more to keep him fresh for the stretch run.
It must have been someone else
And I apologize for saying it was you. I can’t remember who it was, but it was when the board was talking about getting Hanley and moving Peralta to third.
No worries
But I know what you’re talking about. There’s nothing wrong with having that viewpoint, especially since there’s really no way that we can statistically prove or deny that it’s a real phenomenon. It’s like scrappiness.
That's me
I don’t think that Peralta moving to 3B should or does affect his ability to hit. I’ve posted it before and I still agree.
DH is a little trickier situation because you’re not in the field. I can see it disrupting a player’s habits because it’s probably more likely to change the mental approach. A player must also deal with long periods of inactivity followed by short periods of activity. I’ll admit that going from a position to being a DH is more of an adjustment (and perhaps has a greater effect) than going from SS to 3B. But you won’t get me to buy that Peralta-didn’t-hit-well-because-he-was-playing-3B theory. For every player that’s hit poorly during a position change period, I bet you can find one that’s maintained their production at the plate. I’ll bet that Hanley Ramirez has a good year at the plate.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
And for every player that has hit poorly shifting to DH you have had one that has had success
Just like VMart adjusted.
I don’t see the difference between one shift and the other. The preparation and mindset is different for every position on the baseball field, just like it would be different if you aren’t on the baseball field (DH). If anything being a DH should improve one’s mental approach to batting because that is all they would have to focus on and wouldn’t have to worry about things like positioning in the field and what to do with the ball if it is hit at them.
I am not saying that every player that was forced into a position change is going to be negatively affected by that change, but the numbers when Peralta was forced to move to 3B (2 years) compared to the numbers when he was at his natural position of SS are vastly different. If it was a one year abnormality then I could see it as just that, but his offensive drop of directly correlate to the move to 3B full time and his resurgence directly correlates to a move back to SS full time.
It also could have been that he was just unhappy in Cleveland and the move to Detroit fixed it, but with the drastic change in offensive production that we saw is it worth taking that risk?
You are contradicting yourself.
I'm not worried as much about Miggy's hitting falling off
Instead, I’m concerned that his defense will fall off in 2013 if he spends the majority of this season as a DH. Remember, he still hasn’t been playing 1B all that long.
Honestly
neither am I, and like you I am concerned about his defense. He walks a very fine line year and and year out with his mobility and weight and a year of not playing in the field could be a problem.
I don't think playing DH would have much of an effect on his weight
It’s not exactly like 1B is a calorie burning position.
I never enjoy this discussion because I don't have anything to fall back on
Call it faith, call it experience, call it whatever. I played ball and manned 5 different positions between little league and high school. When you’re in the field, you think defense. When you’re in the dugout, you think about offense. It’s that simple to me and I can’t understand how it would affect a player to move 20 feet to his right.
Now you, Wilson, have those damn numbers to fall back on from Peralta’s time at 3B in Cleveland. It’s not a small sample and the poor production is timed so well with the position change that you almost can’t overlook it.
I feel like a creationist arguing with a scientist about evolution and I usually prefer to be in your role. I just can’t accept your argument.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Here's the closest thing to a right answer we have
It depends on the player. It might affect some guys (Peralta), and have no effect on others.
I get ya
I wouldn’t think the shift would mean that much either, personally. I played the outfield in high school myself, most the time I was in center but occasionally I would have to shift to RF or LF (and I played 3B in softball, not an easy task for a leftie….) and I don’t think it affected me. The only thing I can think is that SS is generally considered the leader of the IF (at least I always pictured it that way and it seems to work that way most of the time) and he could have felt the move to 3B was a demotion or something.
Either way, you are probably right and it is nothing, but like I said the difference in offensive production to me seems like something I don’t want to trade for a big name SS and find out I was right.
I'd prefer Pena and Oswalt
But hey, at least you’re thinking.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
by David Tokarz on Jan 17, 2012 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
Let's be real
It’s definitely not the worst idea in this thread
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
I'm all about encouraging moves that aren't "Trade for David Wright"
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
I would be worried about the shape Miggy gets in.
He is big already and could get bigger if he isn’t asked to play 1st.
But, I wouldnt be pissed if it happened.
I doubt he burns that many calories playing first
He probably gets more exercise lugging out all those doubles.
Rod Allen is not Right
Despite what locals say, Cabrera is a distinctly Below Average defensive first baseman. Cabrera could play 1B vs. LHP’s (who Kotchman does not hit). In the best case scenario Raburn now can leave his glove in the car and DH vs. LHP’s. Kotchman would get a lot of love from the Tiger pitchers. If a good hitter falls apart when moved to DH then the Tigers were fools to sign Victor in the first place.
My take
The V-Mart injury is as bad news as we could possibly have received. I don’t agree with most of the above suggestions. Pena? NO; Damon NO; Maggs No. Cespedes? – a lot of $ for an unproven player. The real problem will not be DH – it still is 3B.
Trade for David Wright and 2 problems are solved – someone to protect Cabrera and play solid defence at 3B. Trade Turner and Castellanos for him – he is 29 years old and a proven commodity. Who knows how the 2 we give up will turn out? Lots of people were upset to see Miller and Maybin go in the Cabrera deal. In any deal I believe the team getting the best player usually wins.
We could then platoon Santiago/Worth at 2B, get solid defence and some hitting. Raburn goes to LF and Delmon is the DH. Raburn never hits well in the spring but he has left Lakeland the last 2 years with an indication he will be an everyday player, only to get jacked in and out of the line up very quickly. Leave him in there every day for a month and I bet he will hit better.
Why can’t we use Avila as our DH 30-40 games when Laird is catching? We acquired Laird to rest Avila’s legs, not his bat.
Two problems remain: leadoff hitter and a 5th starter. 5th starter? Oswalt/Smyly/Crosby/Pauley?
We need to decide if the aim is just to win the Central again or to be able to beat the Angels or Rangers to get to the WS.
Raburn
Boesch
Young
Cabrera
Wright
Peralta
Avila
Santiago/Worth
Jackson
Not a perfect line up
Your thoughts?
David Wright has declined 2 years in a row
He’ll cost $31 Million also. That’s 2 strikes again him. He’s not worth top prospects. He’s not worth the salary either.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 17, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
I am part of the thinking
that Major League players are 9 outta 10 times better than prospects.
Lots of people were upset to see Miller and Maybin go in the Cabrera deal
I was one of these, I have since changed my tune on prospects
by DarthSparty on Jan 17, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
David Wright is no Cabrera
We got a good long look at Maybin and Miller before we traded them. I knew that they wouldn’t live up to their hype. Right now, Turner and Castellanos are looking like can’t misses. Until they show me otherwise, I wouldn’t trade them.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 17, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
It would take
sending a good list of prospects to get Wright. Especially with the Mets trying to rebuild. And they moved the fences in so numbers are going to increase, so if we want to make the move the time is now.
Good call
On having Avila DH on his rest days. I like
by situationalbuntingapologist on Jan 17, 2012 11:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
"The V-Mart injury is as bad news as we could possibly have received."
Well, actually (knocking frantically on wood) it isn’t.
I can think of at least 3 position players alone that would be worse losses
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
cabrera, avila, peralta
with jackson being a “maybe”
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
I thought about Peralta
I just think finding a replacement SS with decent numbers would be easier than finding a CF that covers ground like Jackson and provides decent offense.
Strong argument either way though.
I would offer that it's hard to find a SS with decent numbers
unless the plan would have been to give the farm to the marlins
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Boom
Problem solved. Poopz for President.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Really? How does has nobody seen it?
Sign Victor Martinez Jr. for a tiny contract, with some Juice Box and Gummy Bear incentives
But seriously, this is terrible news.
The only reason I think we can overcome this is our great pitching and the lack of any major moves in the central.
The best plan I think is to trade for David Wright. Give up what ever we need to DD.
2nd option is Yoenis Cespedes (Delmon at DH). This is a do or die move. It could put us over the hump, or be a very expensive mistake, but I am all for doing it.
3rd. Magglio Ordonez, true we may not have the roster space for another platoon.
I think a move needs to, and will, happen. Although, dont be surprised if it is a trade deadline deal. Hell if we get another Fister at the deadline, we might forget about VMart
by DarthSparty on Jan 17, 2012 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
No f*cking Pena
Period. Unless we want him for his D at 1B and put Miggy at DH, which is a HORRIBLE idea.
I do like the Wright suggestions, but it seems very unlikely, and I don’t like to think of what we’d have to give up for him.
… however, the Mets are in the midst of a quasi fire-sale…
Pena kills right handed pitchers
He’d be great in a platoon with Raburn.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 17, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
Why no Pena?
Decent lefty bat who plays good defense? Sounds like a perfect option, outside of a one-year mercenary deal for Fielder.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 17, 2012 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
Because his position is Cabrera's position
And yes, Miggy’s dWAR is poor, but I believe that taking a guy out of the field also takes him out of his overall game. I truly feel that having Miggy go out and be part of the defensive portion of the game keeps his head in it, and helps his batting. I dunno… I guess there’s an intangible about Pena that just doesn’t rub me well. Maybe I perceive Miggy getting relegated to DH as (in his mind) a demotion and possibly having a deleterious effect on his overall performance?
I’m not sure how he’d platoon well with Raburn. As DH? As bad as Raburn’s D is, he’s needed in the field somewhere. Of course, my opinions are purely subjective. I’d rather give Dmitri Young a non-roster invite to Spring Training than try Pena again honestly. Or see what the minors have to offer. After the end of Spring Training, I’ll be happy to revisit this. At this point of time, I think Vlad or Damon are our best bets, as I’m sure they’ll be happy with being just DHs (as they should).
by H2OPoloPunk on Jan 18, 2012 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
Pena over the last 5 years
has averaged 34 Homers and 97 RBI’s. Makes me wonder what he could do in good line-up next to Cabrera.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 18, 2012 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
Who says Pena wouldn't be happy to be a DH?
Hell, I’d bet you can get Prince Fielder to be happy to DH for a year for one of his father’s former teams if you paid him enough. Statistically, Pena is the best option not named Fielder to replace Martinez’s production in the middle of the order.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
He does
Which is why he reportedly said he won’t play for any of his father’s former teams (can’t find a link). My point is that everyone has a price. It’s up to Mr. I whether he wants to find Prince’s for a one-year deal.
Kurt this has been a dizzying day
First — VMart out.
Second — MSU chokes/screwed by big Blue.
It can’t get worse. I think we need to burn sage to realign the cosmos.
Is Casey Kotchman still free agent
He has a nice left handed bat against righty.
The level of hyperbole in this thread makes my head hurt.
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 12:19 AM EST reply actions
Your use of rhetorical devices has me confused
What is so hyperbolic?
by H2OPoloPunk on Jan 18, 2012 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
Seriously
No other team in our division broke .500 last year.
The 2011 playoffs were yet another proof positive that regular-season production does not guarantee playoff wins.
Deep breath, people.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
I can't tell if the people asking for Fielder on a one year deal are serious or not but
when was the last time a young, durable 1st baseman entering his prime while coming off an MVP caliber season was offered a one year deal and took it? We could offer him $40 Mill. for one year and he should still say no.
He would take it because the market sucks right now
If Texas signs Yu Darvish tomorrow, who is pursuing him? Milwaukee? Maybe, but I don’t think he wants to go back there. Washington? I’ll believe it when they offer him a contract. St. Louis? I don’t see them offering him Pujols-type money. The market is barren and while it might not get much better in one year’s time, it’s better for him to take a big payday for one season then to sign a long-term deal that’s significantly less than what he originally planned on.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
Pujols type money might be out of his reach
but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a viable long-term contract out there for him. The difference between a one-year deal for around $30M and the 10 years $240 M Pujols got is ENORMOUS. There is something in between and just because Prince might not get the moon and the stars doesn’t mean the market is barren. I don’t think he’ll be hard pressed to at least get a deal in the carl crawford range, which he would take over a one-year deal.
JD Drew?
Ideally the Tigers move Delmon Young to full time DH and get someone to play outfield. I have no idea about his health, but I wonder if JD Drew might have a good season left in him for a low base salary and high incentives. He’s an above average fielder who bats left handed, gets on base, and can hit for power. He could bat third and have Young bat 5th.
If they opt to sign a DH, I prefer Guerrero over Peña because of the ease of bringing in a lefty to face Peña in the late innings.
I’m not counting on Cespedes. I’m not counting on the Tigers signing him, and if they do, I’m not counting on him immediately contributing the way we all hope he would.
by Dergunna Wavimin on Jan 18, 2012 6:07 AM EST reply actions
I'm not sure what Drew brings that Pena doesn't
A bit more flexibility in the field and a few more points of batting average, yes, but Pena has better power and a more consistent track record. Plus Drew has injury problems.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Outfield
The difference is that Drew can play the outfield, thus pushing DY to DH. With Pena you’re forced to keep a good defensive player in the DH role, and a bad defensive player in the field. That being said, I personally still would prefer Pena.
Only if he comes really cheap prospect-wise
The more salary the Tigers take on, the less they would have to give up.
He'd be cheap regardless
Of course, Pena was just as good with the bat, and he’d only cost cash.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Eh,
We just don’t think like DD does. I have no doubt he’ll find a capable replacement. I do doubt that we’ll like that replacement.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Pena
Yesterday I said no to the idea of signing Pena. But the more you look at other options and look at his stats against righties, then it seems the best way to go. I think getting Yoenis Cespedes is too expensive and a risky investment for an unproven 26 year old. This still sucks as much today as it did yesterday.
Marlon Byrd
Cubs seem to be going after Cespedes pretty hard, which would make Byrd redundant. Dude’s a real pro, 6.5 million this year, could be had for a couple mid-level prospects. Also Delmon goes to DH… Seems to fit much better than any of the available free agents.
I think for most teams
Cespedes isn’t going to factor into their plans for 2012 so whoever signs him is not going to want to move anyone this year to make room for him. He will probably need some time in the minors. So even if the Cubs do sign him they will need Byrd to play until they deem Cespedes adapted and ready to play in the Majors.
Of the 6 teams showing the most interest, only 2 have legit playoff chances, IMO
Miami and Detroit have teams that are strong enough to make a playoff push.
The other four teams are the Cubs, Orioles, White Sox, and Indians.
For the White Sox and Indians, their division is probably weak enough that they might think they have a chance at the start of the season. The Indians have a decent OF already in Sizemore, Choo, and Brantly. Hence, they might start Cespedes in the minors and keep to more proven OF options. The White Sox, even if they feel they are making a run for it, don’t really have many better OF options than Cespedes. Pierre and Quinten are gone…Rios sucks. I’d be tempted to play him right away.
The Cubs and Orioles, however, have about zero chance of making the playoffs. If I were them, I’d want Cespedes to be playing from day 1 (or at least after a month of milb seasoning). If the Cubs could move Byrd for something decent and give the playing time to Cespedes, even if it sacrifices a win or two in 2012, I’d do it.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Byrd is okay
But I’d prefer an impact bat to lessen the impact on the lineup.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not so sure about that
Cubs are in full rebuild mode, and seem willing to throw this next season away (you see who their starting 1b is?). I bet with decent enough picks, the opportunity to funnel Byrd’s money straight into
oops
supposed to be a reply, and a finished thought. But: essentially, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Cubs move Byrd to help pay for Cespedes.
I totally suck
…and the Tigers should at least see what it would take to get him.
I would do the deal, don't get me wrong
I just don’t think the cubs are going to risk rushing a guy that is going to have a hard time adjusting to Major league pitching on top of trying to adjust to a complete culture shock, especially for the investment he is going to get financially.
Silly Question
But, who else is in this image. VMart Maggs? and whom?
by DarthSparty on Jan 18, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
Carlos Guillen and Armando Galarraga in the clouds
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Were VMart and Galarraga ever on the team together ?
by DarthSparty on Jan 18, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Watch picture sizes, everyone
No need for anything bigger than 300-400 pixels in either direction, no matter how awesome they are.
I honestly thought that SBNation had worked in something to auto resize images.
because I thought my images were getting resized for a bit there.
Honestly, the best news here
would be we get VMart back after the All-Star break. What a boost that would provide a team that is hopefully in first place. Guess we will not know anything for a few days.
Not sure if this has been said yet...
But why not have Young as our DH and look for necessities elsewhere? Young was a good bat for us, but lets face it…His Defense is a liability. We could use him as the DH for the season…let V-mart get healthy for next season, and we could look for better options at 2nd or 3rd. The Outfield should be ok this year as long as we don’t suffer any other injuries.
Don't forget the Boesch factor
Losing VMart sucks hard, but you could make a strong argument for “protecting” Cabrera with Avila and Boesch in some combination of #3/#5 and not seeing too terrible a drop-off from VMart’s production.
I’ve thought for two years that we under-value Boesch’s importance to the lineup1. For instance, if you look at his production in wins vs. losses last season, it’s very interesting. He had a 1.028 OPS in wins, .544 in losses. Compare this to VMart’s .943 win/.699 loss, Miggy’s 1.058/.998, Avila’s 1.021/.709 or Peralta’s .911/.698. So, either Boesch just plays worse when the team’s losing, or we start to infer that his poor production has a greater effect on wins and losses than that of our other primary hitters.
(I’m sure those who’re more statistically-minded than I can tell me why this is meaningless, but I found it interesting.)
1 – Not to the degree that we under-value Peralta, but still.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
I don't like Boesch when he has an agenda
I popular meme regarding Boesch in the past has been his “see ball, hit ball” mentality. At first, I disregarded this as a Leylandism that didn’t necessarily mean anything. As I’ve watched Boesch in different situations the last two year, I think there’s certainly something to it. Boesch doesn’t seem to be very good when he’s at the plate trying to do anything specific. It’s just a feeling for now, but perhaps I can do a little research.
With him at the #5 spot, I feel like he’d press a little too much to drive in runs and it would take away from his effectiveness. I’d much rather have him at #2 where the bases are empty most of the time and all he has to do is hit it. Even if Jackson is on first, his approach is still to just hit it, but run hard if it’s on the ground.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
I'll take Pena over Damon
Between those 2…
"I will play tomorrow unless I am dead when I wake up" - Victor Martinez
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