Valuing Victor Martinez's contributions to the Tigers
So, with Victor Martinez injured and likely to miss the entire 2012 season, what are the Tigers going to miss out on?
The popular answer in some stories and comments has been a .330 average, .380 on-base percentage, .470 slugging average and 103 RBIs. That is a wonderful recap of what happened last season but not necessarily predictive of what would happen this season.
I realize I'm oversimplifying it a bit. Some people may even want to look at this as sour grapes or trying to make the best of a bad situation. So let me state up front: I don't want to downplay Martinez's contributions or the flexibility he provided manager Jim Leyland with the lineup. He's a consistent above-average, switch-hitting batter. That's important.
But I feel it is also important to view Martinez through the lens of what he really is as a batter rather than just how he did in the most recent year. Furthermore, the protection he "provided" to Cabrera can easily be overstated.
Let's start with the basics.
Martinez's average in 2011 was .330. His career average is .303. Before joining Detroit, his highest average was .316 back in 2006. His BABIP was .343 in 2011, 27 points higher than his career average. Given the consistency of his average in most years, I think it's safer to mark him down as a .300 hitter than a .330 one.
Martinez's on-base percentage moves around quite a bit. .380 last year, but .351 the year before. .381 in 2009, but .337 in 2008. I'm not one of those people who believes that a see-saw like that will continue, but I do believe this is evidence you couldn't just pencil Martinez down as an automatic .370+ OBP. For the most part, this is because Martinez doesn't take walks as frequently as he did earlier in his career. The 7.4% in 2010 and 7.7% in 2011 were the lowest walk rates of his entire career.
I don't really have much to say about the isolated power. That was down a bit in 2010, as Martinez's HR:FB ratio slipped below his career average. So it's possible that could have inched up a bit.
What about the clutch aspect? There is no doubt, in 2011 Martinez hit well with two outs and runners in scoring position. His average, OBP and slugging all jumped, resulting in a .930 OPS. His wOBA in high-leverage situations zoomed to .546 from .333 in low leverage. ... In 2010, it was just the opposite. Martinez was .347 wOBA in low leverage and .230 in high leverage. If you keep going back through the years, you'll notice that some years he's better in high leverage, some year he's not. To me, that inconsistency kind of mitigates any possible true clutch factor that may exist.
By the way, for all the talk of Marinez being a .300 hitter with two strikes, his career average there is .231. As recently as 2009, he batted .199 with two strikes. Again, while it's possible he made adjustments that he could carry the rest of his career, in all likelihood he was just getting lucky.
In total, based on recent years performance as well as a projection into the future, we could probably expect a batting line that looked more like .300 average, .360 on-base percentage and .450 slugging. As a batter, he's probably worth 20-23 runs above average. That's pretty valuable and it puts him around some pretty big names.
What about baserunning? Using Fangraphs' figures, Martinez has gone from being slightly below average to nearly 5 runs below average. So offensive production may be closer to 15-18 runs above average. We could view him as a Nick Swisher, basically.
As a fielder? Well, that wasn't in the plans. The Tigers signed Gerald Laird because Martinez was going to spend most of his time at designated hitter. He could fill in for Miguel Cabrera at first base. He's never played in the outfield. So the Tigers aren't really losing anything there.
Now, you say, what about protecting Miguel Cabrera?
Well, about that ... Quick quiz.
What year did Cabrera have the highest walk percentage of his career?
... 2011. With Martinez "protecting" him. Cabrera was also intentionally walked 22 times.
Who protected Cabrera in 2010, by the way?
Cabrera did have a terrific season with Martinez behind him, batting .344 and winning the batting title. He also saw his fly ball rate and power both drop, as he hit more balls for line drives and ground balls and had a corresponding boost to is BABIP.
The real loss in Martinez is flexibility. Martinez provides a switch-hitter in the middle of the lineup. He pushes every other batter down a spot to give opposing pitchers fewer chances to rest. The best suggestions for replacing Martinez all involve substituting two players for one, costing a lineup spot and its corresponding flexibility.
The loss is also that creating a fresh hole to fill may keep the club from other moves that we felt it was necessary to make. Now, money might have to be spent in the free agent market. Now, prospects might have to be used on acquiring a replacement rather than held for other uses.
Unquestionably, you'd rather have Martinez happy and healthy and with the ballclub.
But I have a hard time believing this is the end of the world. And it's far from the worst news the Tigers could have gotten. (Miguel Cabrera anyone? Alex Avila? Jhonny Peralta? Maybe even Austin Jackson? And we haven't even mentioned any MVP pitcher's name yet.)
If the Tigers can replace 75-to-80% of the production Martinez provides, that's enough to say this is a setback, not a complete disaster. In my next posts, I'll see how likely that possibility really is.
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Hopefully, this will cause DD to do what he should have already done
Instead of benching or replacing Delmon, move him to DH where his glove doesn’t play.
Get Raburn out of the infield.
Get a bona fide second baseman, or at least a LH platoon partner for Santiago. Maicer Izturis, Kelly Johnson, Orlando Hudson all would be solid upgrades, and legit top of the lineup bats that are needed.
In the alternative, sign a third baseman to replace the inadequate platoon of Inge and Kelly.
There are two and a half players on the Tigers that may be able to provide adequate protection for Cabrera. 1. Boesch, 2. Avila, 3. Second Half Raburn. Not Delmon, and not Peralta. Pitchers would be pitching around Miggy with either of those two in the five hole.
I am not in favor of bringing back Carlos Pena. He doesn’t protect Miggy, he isn’t a middle of the order bat, he doesn’t play second or third base, and he goes AWOL for months at a time.
"King of Minutiae"
Baseball is just a completely inadequate game.
All these humans are weak, slow, and stupid compared to us Cylons.
Carlos Pena is a middle of the order bat
He has a career OPS of 838, Martinez has a career OPS of 840…
If Martinez is a middle of the order bat, then Pena is a middle of the order bat.
Victor is much, much more consistent
Pena is as streaky as they come. When he’s hitting, he’s a middle of the order bat, (hell, so is Raburn) but he’s not a guy that I’d be comfortable with penciling in and relying on for the season.
"King of Minutiae"
last year
he had two months with an OBP under 330 and two months with a SLG under 489
in 2010
He had two months with an OBP under 364 and two months with a SLG under 458
in 2009
He had one month with a OBP under 340 and one month with a SLG under 510
Really? You are going with streaky?
ohh and for comparrison
Last year Martinez had
one month with a OBP under 330 and three with a SLG under 489
2010
three under 364 OBP and three under 458 SLG
2009
two under 340 OBP and three SLG under 510
Pena's OBP
2010, month by month: .379, .233, .364, .365, .381, .256, .273
Also batted .146 in July and .210 in May.
Pretty streaky.
In any case, his OBP comes in great part to a great BB rate- over 100 BB’s last year. That’s not going to give protection to Cabrera, but his overall OBP would help in the 3 slot if that’s what we’re looking for.
I would not go the DH route, though. I’d be dealing for an infielder and trying Boesch in the 3 slot, and Avila 5th, or vise verse. That means trading, rather than signing a free agent (except Betemit).
"King of Minutiae"
So two bad months are streaky?
You are seriously going to split Sept and a week of baseball in October to try and make it look like he is streaky? That is a new low, I mean you are really reaching to try and prove your point…it is almost petty. I gave a clear comparison between Pena and Martinez that showed they are just as streaky as each other, and by that I mean not really streaky at all.
And BTW, batting in the 3 slot was middle of the order last I checked.
Last time I checked, October was a month
You could include it or exclude it. Whatever. Doesn’t change the results. If his OBP was .400 in those three days, he’d still be streaky.
"King of Minutiae"
well to be fair here
25 games is a month. 3 games is a series. October is the name of a month, at least
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
His point is that I should have excluded October from the stats? Really?
Or is he just arguing with me for the sake of it?
"King of Minutiae"
I never excluded it from the stats
It is generally accepted to include October into Sept stats…which is what I did with the stats I posted.
I forget how much you like the small sample sizes when you think it makes your point better.
Regardless of what he did with October
His numbers do show that Pena was somewhat streaky last season. No reason to flip out about a pretty meaningless detail.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
Not really
At least no more streaky than anyone else not named Miguel Cabrera. Definitely no more streaky than the guy he would essentially be replacing.
Martinez’s OBP for 2010 (which is what he used for some reason instead of 2011’s numbers)
307 315 411 391 322 387 (sorry I combined Sept/Oct, although Martinez did have a 400 OBP of course it was a single game but that doesn’t matter evidently…)
I would just like some consistency with his arguments. If you are going to say the guy isn’t a middle of the order bat don’t turn around and tell me that he should bat 3rd in the Tigers line-up. If you are going to complain that you don’t think he should replace Martinez because he is too streaky at least mention that he is no more streaky than Martinez. Or at least don’t offer other options that are just as bad
Izturis 2010 OBP
325 367 292 231 344 421
Hudson 2010 OBP
387 368 273 353 368 252
The only person he offered that was more consistant than Pena with OBP is Johnson who just signed a contract with Toronto at a very cheap price for his production. And is pretty streaky only from Year to Year instead of Month to Month.
When Miguel Cabrera is your #4 hitter
there is a HUGE difference between 3rd and 5th. Pena’s knack for drawing walks and getting on base regardless of how well he is hitting is exactly the type of player that should be hitting in front of Miguel Cabrera.
And I never said that Martinez was or was not streaky, so please do not accuse me of anything that I haven’t touched on in this comment thread. I’m not trying to get in the middle of this blossoming feud between you and TD (why this is happening, I have no idea), I’m just trying to make sure everyone is arguing facts. Yes, he manipulated September and October to his advantage, but he wasn’t wrong (numbers-wise).
TD has been begging for trades on trades on trades for the past four months, so this is nothing new from him. Our 2B and 3B situations are the plight of the Earth in his mind, and he’s offered up some fairly reasonable solutions in other threads. I would like to hear how the Martinez injury changes his wish list, but I doubt it would budge Chase Headley from his top spot.
I wasn't saying you said Martinez was streaky
I never said that anyone said Martinez was streaky (I probably needed a comma or two in my posts to differentiate). I said that Pena is no more streaky than Martinez or pretty much anyone else, and to me I don’t think either of them are streaky.
It is perfectly understandable and acceptable for guys to go into cold spells for 5-10 games which would seriously effect their numbers when you break it down month by month, just like it is normal for guys to go on hot streaks for 5-10 games. That to me is normal baseball and every time you watch a game on TV the announcers love to point out either the current hot streak or cold streak every player is currently on.
It is part of the game, but to classify a guy as “streaky” when he goes through those same spells as pretty much every other player is purposely propagating misconception. Again, I am not saying you are doing this, my involvement in this conversation was to try and correct other people that were pushing that propaganda.
Also, there is a huge difference between a 3 and 5 hitter with Miggy in the line-up, but they are still both middle of the order spots.
Agreed on all parts
Especially the last paragraph. “Middle of the order” is a very subjective term, but I take it in the literal sense of it being the 4-5-6 hitters.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 19, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Good summary
Kurt, This is a good summary of we could have expected from Martinez this year. I think his homers would have increased a bit, but I agree his average (including BA/RISP) and OBP would have gone down.
While I think protection is overrated, I think it does matter a little in this case. Just going by memory, it seemed that Cabrera was pitched around a lot when Martinez was injured. I’d like to see the walk breakdown with and without Martinez.
Still, it should not be a devastating loss. It will hurt for sure, but getting a decent DH should be a lot easier than finding someone that can play a position.
you left out the most significant contribution
Li’l Victor
"I'm a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast food" - Ron Swanson
by rock n rye on Jan 18, 2012 1:49 PM EST via Android app reply actions
Even if VMart didn't get hurt right now
You’d have to project that he’d get hurt eventually and miss at least 20 games. He’s average 125 games per year for the last 4 seasons. We knew he was an injury risk when we got him. Yes, I’m rationalizing now.
But
isn’t this average with V-Mart primarily playing a position in the field? Could we expect the same if he was only a DH next year?
by Big Z in Orlando on Jan 18, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
career .300 hitter while playing a majority role at catcher. May become the next Edgar Martinez by being just a DH.
Well
this isn’t really what I meant. I was referring to:
He’s average 125 games per year for the last 4 seasons.
I think it likely he would miss fewer games due to injury if he’s not playing catcher or even 1B.
I don’t know what being a full-time DH would do to him, but if last season is any indication it might at least slow the slope of his gradual decline.
by Big Z in Orlando on Jan 18, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
Batting Fifth in 2010
Brennan Boesch, 343 AB, .286 .348 .478 .826
Carlos Guillen, 85 AB, .294 .362 .435 .797
Don Kelly, 38 AB, .263 .317 .500 .817
Ryan Raburn, 38 AB, .342 .390 .605 .996
Jhonny Peralta, 232 AB, .224 .297 .341 .637 (With DET and CLE)
Tigers Total. .273 .337 .444 .781
Tigers 2011: .307 .353 .444 .797
No other player had more than 25 AB in the five slot.
I think this backs up Kurt’s point very well. The Tigers can patch up the five hole okay, but there is a domino effect through the lineup causing displacement in other spots. The best hitters to protect Cabrera are also the best hitters to bat in the 3 slot ahead of Miggy. We’re losing one good bat, and replacing it with a lesser bat.
"King of Minutiae"
I'm sure the 3 spot was Delmon's either way :/
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
I seem to remember you saying otherwise last season...
And I only point this out because I called you on it and Boesch hit like .400 for the next month.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
Hitter protection works on both sides.
Instead of batting Delmon Young and his abysmal OBP in front of Cabrera, why not try to optimize the top of the lineup with the best OBP players we have (meaning, not Jackson or Delmon)? Teams are walking Cabrera dependent on the situation. If they weren’t he’d never bat. The less first base is open due to guys not getting on base, the less they’ll walk Cabrera.
The argument against Pena
Detroit led the big leagues by a significant margin in singles with men in scoring position in 2011. Victor ranked second in MLB in this statistic while Pena had a total of 7 RISP singles. Interesting related story at
www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2011/11/bradley_yankees_may_need_more.html
put him in front of Cabrera
take advantage of his OBP and let Cabrera drive him in.
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
Haha...I just said that in another thread
But it took me longer. Touche.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
this. this. this. this.
Did I mention this?
by BeardedPlayoffJesus19 on Jan 18, 2012 3:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
+1
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Aha.
Last year I did a little statistical piece here which tried to examine the discrepancy between the number of runs scored vs. the number of hits the Tigers got; essentially a “squander factor” that I called “runs per hit.” I have to say, singles with RISP looks like a good way to quantify this concept; sure, we can get ’em on base, but can we cash ’em in? Survey says, no.
Innnnnteresting. Never thought of this before.
by frisbeepilot on Jan 18, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure if this has been discussed
If you bring in Pena do you take advantage of his glove by moving Cabrera to DH? That might risk messing up the big guy who has a career .230/.306/.370 line in 111 PAs as a DH. Part of the issue might have been that MC was hurt for some of his DH PAs, but it’s an interesting question how this would be handled.
we've all sort of batted around the idea that there are better fielding first basemen out there
but assume Cabrera would continue getting the starts
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
If Pena's on the team
How do you play Miguel at 1B, especially in the late innings?
I understand protecting Miguel and whatever ego he possesses. But, it’s about winning the game as well. Myabe watching Pena at first base for 500 or more innings would do Miguel a world of good.
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
This is not a boat worth rocking
Defense at 1B is not a premium factor. We have Cabrera inked for several more years. Hes our bread and butter. There’s no sense in upsetting him about something.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
it is important to take victor's career in total when assessing this loss
but it’s still relevant to note his production from last year (his year with the tigers).
we are losing a guy who hit 330/etc last year. we received that much production from him last year. even if he was due for regression, the total loss that will be experienced should be accounted for when discussing replacement options.
Every day each of us says the dumbest thing we are going to say that day.
qwantz.com
If Carlos Pena Play's First So Good
Could he move to Thirdbase? This could be looked at durring Spring Training.
No, he's left-handed
It provides a significant disadvantage when approximately 95% of throws made by third basemen and shortstops go to the left side of their bodies. Having to make the turn to square towards the intended base takes precious time that can’t be afforded at this level.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
Fun with numbers
C Pena 2011: .225 .357 .462 .819
C Lee 2011: .275 .342 .446 .788
Soriano 2011: .244 .289 .469 .759
Damon 2011: .261 .326 .418 .743
C Ross 2011: .240 .325 .405 .730
Vladdy 2011: .290 .317 .416 .733
Ibanez, 2011: .245 .289 .419 .707
Dirks 2011: .251 .296 .406 .703
Delmon 2011: .268 .302 .393 .695
Drew 2011: .222 .315 .302 .617
"King of Minutiae"
Best Free Agents Remaining:
1. Prince Fielder
2. Edwin Jackson
3. Roy Oswalt
4. Carlos Pena
5. Casey Kotchman
6. Johnny Damon
7. Wilson Betemit
8. Vlad Guererro
9. Francisco Cordero
10. Derek Lee
11. Raul Ibanez
12. Magglio Ordonez
13. David Aardsma
14. Russel Branyan
15. Brad Lidge
You could insert Cespedes pretty high up on this list. Not in exact order, but this is about what’s left.
"King of Minutiae"
Move Edwin Jackson down between Kotchman and Damon
And then we’re talking. I’d also bump Derrek Lee above Vlad too. Possibly Betemit, but he plays a premium position (though not well).
Martinez
Nice to see Tiger Forum friends fighting the good fight. Single, TD, GlennWilson, keep posting. Remember when I suggested trading Victor? I hope we don’t have another few years of Carlos Guillen.

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