Johnny Damon, Carlos Pena among options for replacing Tigers' Victor Martinez
So we've reviewed the cost, statistically anyway, of the Tigers' likely losing Victor Martinez for all of 2012. I've posited that he could probably have been expected to bat about a 300 average, with a .360 OBP and .450 or so slugging average. Now the question arises: How do the Tigers make up for that?
Popular suggestions I've read so far, listed in no particular order:
- Prince Fielder
- Casey Kotchman
- Carlos Pena
- Vladimir Guerrero
- Yoenis Cespedes
- Carlos Lee
- J.D. Drew
- Alfonso Soriano
- Johnny Damon
- Manny Ramirez
- Magglio Ordonez
- Carlos Guillen
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Take the insurance money
and make sure we get Cespedes. Cespedes should be ready around the All-Star break, and V-Mart should be ready for a playoff run.
I think it's safer to assume Martinez is out for the year like the club is
hopefully we get good news next week
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
That would be
a really long ACL recovery, but maybe because of Victor’s age and history of catching his recovery will take exceptionally long (or the team will be exceptionally careful), or maybe the injury is worse than the team has let on. If V-Mart doesn’t come back at all I would still prefer to see us fit Cespedes into the payroll. If DH isn’t working out there will be options at the deadline.
It's not that long of an ACL recovery, actually
The timeframe for a normal individual is at least 6 months. Elite level athletes usually take over a year to get back to their previous levels of performance.
I guess ive always seen it the other way
my thought has always been that professional athletes tend to come back faster than regular people who get injuries because they have better surgeons, facilities, etc, basically just more resources. Also i may be wrong but as i understand it athletes tend to come back from ACL surgeries faster than non-athletes because the rest of the knee is in better shape, at least that is how the Dr. explained it to me.
Does a 'regular' person even NEED his ACL like an elite athlete?
I’d guess it would take the elite athlete longer, because of the demands on his ACL are much larger.
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
Bingo
The ACL’s main function is as a stabilizer in the knee, especially when changing directions and whatnot (which explains why so many injuries occur in non-contact situations, like V-Mart’s). Elite athletes place a much higher demand on the ACL, so any advantages provided by better surgeons, facilities, etc. (and nowadays, the gap is shortening) are moot. In general, ligaments don’t have their own blood supply, so the healing time is much longer than, say, a broken bone.
and folks, Rob knows what he's talking about here
he’s off in DC getting smarted in it!
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
My dog tore her ACL
I opted for conservative managemanent as opposed to surgery. If Victor completely rests for 8 weeks and only goes on in the yard to pee and take dumps, DOESN’T CHASE ANY SQUIRRELS, and then gradually gets more exercise to build up the scar tissue in his stifle, I expect him to be back by August or September at the latest.
I am concerned whether his coat will lose some luster.
"i think it will be mostly feast the rest of the year,"
by Honeyman on Jan 18, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
this is exactly correct
I had the surgery before. It’s definitely not a fun process, having the surgery or going through the rehab. But my doctor did tell me, if your goal in life was to do nothing but sit around, you technically don’t even need to have ACL surgery… although it’s highly recommended, his point was if you wanted to be inactive you could still survive without it.
With the amount of use and pressure Vmart will continue to put on that knee as a professional athlete, the time frame for him will be longer than a “regular” person.
Raburn-Santiago '12
Shouldn't Adam Dunn be on this list?
I bet DD could get him for practically nothing.
#sarcasm
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
I'd love for that to happen
And then for Dunn to improve.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
I wrote this with more than a bit of sarcasm
But wouldn’t it be funny? There’s no way Dunn is as bad as he was last year. If Williams is willing to pay 80-85% of the 3 years of his salary?
Eh … never mind.
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
Good Article Kurt
Although you sounded exhausted at the end of it and it seemed you really didnt fight for any one of them to be on the team. However, your right, its all a crap shoot. My pic would be Vladdie. He’s still a dangerous hitter, and one that a pitcher would think about not wanting to face should they decide not to pitch to Cabby. I realize his numbers were down some last year, but he still hit decent for power in a lineup that didnt exactly blow any one away. I say if Vlad is in a better lineup, like Vmart last year, vlad will get better pitches. Sorry but Damon is not only washed up, he’s put away wet. Carols its either a hit or a strikeout, and, I think there will be more strikeouts. We already have a strike out king (see Jackson, A). My 2nd choice would be Kotchman. But, we need someone. Please dont let Johnny come marching home again.
haha
Although you sounded exhausted at the end of it and it seemed you really didnt fight for any one of them to be on the team
This is an accurate statement!
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
I feel the same way
It’s like picking one thing to eat from a Taco Bell menu. I’d don’t want to eat there, but if you put a gun to my head, I’ll choose either the Mexican Pizza or Nacho Bell Grande. It’s a real crap shoot.
Sort of.
The real crap shoot comes about an hour later, give-or-take.
by frisbeepilot on Jan 18, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
When I read "Ramirez", I thought Hanley.
I got excited. Then I got sad. Then I realized how stupid I was for thinking that.
Oh well.
Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Fight!
while I guess he MIGHT be a trade option
it’d still fall under the “Not going to happen” category.
Raburn-Santiago '12
Oh, it's definitely "not going to happen" for a myriad of reasons.
But I couldn’t help but get momentarily excited.
Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Drink, and Fight!
by Brand New Hero on Jan 18, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Trade for Brandon Phillips
and sign a free agent pitcher to replace the departing starter (Porcello)
man, people are still on the Phillips thing huh?
do they Reds have a stud 2B prospect in waiting that I just don’t know about?
Because other than that… I see no reason why the Reds would trade Phillips. I know he has (or had, maybe they’re resolved?) contract issues, but still. The Reds have been gearing up this winter with Latos and Madson. They have a solid rotation and a pretty nice pen. With Votto and Phillips in the middle of that lineup, and both Pujols and potentially Fielder leaving the NL Central.. the Reds have a real shot at winning that division next year.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love adding Phillips to this team. Just don’t see any real incentive for the Reds to trade him at this time.
Raburn-Santiago '12
If they're willing to spend...
then you’re right. If they’re going to face their market reality, they may be inclined to focus on younger/cheaper players like Porcello, Boesch, Jackson, etc. I’m not really sure what it would take to get him, just that he would hypothetically be available given his cost is going to be $14M per year or more.
I don't really understand all
of the talk either.. Maybe people think the Reds are ready to plug Billy Hamilton in there with Cozart? Either way, I think they’re sold on him continuing to be a big part of their franchise, both on and off the field. I wouldn’t see them moving him for anything less than a severe overpay, and to be honest, I don’t really want him for the price tag he commands.
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
It's not so much that the Reds have a prospect ready
But that they probably won’t re-sign him past 2012 and would like to get something in return (although a compensation pick is nothing to sneeze at).
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
I would take Carlos Lee...
because he has the totally awesome nickname of “El Caballo” (The Horse for those who are 2nd language challenged) and he has been stuck with the hapless Astros the last few years. Put him in the middle of a bad-ass lineup and watch him rake.
Hey now
I have at least pieces of four “second” languages, but none of them happen to be Spanish.
/Equum, le cheval, das Pferd, τος ’ιππος…
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
Gaaaah
I was going to reply in French here, but it’s just too rusty to be conversational. Dammit.
Mais serieusement, j’aime Pena plus que Lee.
by frisbeepilot on Jan 18, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
Tengo gato en los pantalones
I pass, right?
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He also has a fan section at Minute Maid Park
Of old Mexican guys who dress up in sombreros and stand on the terrace. It’s pretty awesome. If we got him that would be the best part.
http://houston.astros.mlb.com/images/2007/05/23/esh6G3dj.jpg
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
I still really want Cespedes
but if we’re going to end up signing just strictly a DH, I’m going with Pena.
Raburn-Santiago '12
Now...
That I’m done with knee jerk reacting I tend to agree on Damon and Pena. I might actually favor Damon because of his baserunning and the fact he seemed to be a good influence on Austin Jackson in 2010. In terms of replacing the clubhouse presence and leadership Damon probably also fits better than Pena.
I don't know about being a good influence.
I think he was just lucky when Damon was playing for the team.
by thepartybird on Jan 18, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
Kosuke Fukudome
I’ve said his name a couple of times…at the risk of beating the dead horse, I’ll say it once more. Fukudome has proven to be a very solid OBP guy . Beginning in 2008, his OBP’s were .359, .375, .371, and .342 last year (combined CHC/CLE). While OBP is his calling card, he also hits .260 with amazing consistency and adds a little pop with 10-15 HR per year and about 30 doubles. He doesn’t have much speed and is an average corner OF on defense.
Fukudome would upgrade the team in two ways. First, he would be a good #2 hitter. I’d like to see that .350+ OBP just a couple of spots in front of Cabrera. I’d like to see his lefthanded bat behind Jackson if Jackson is on first. His K rate is probably going to be about 18%, which isn’t great, but just a tick or two worse than we’d expect from Johnny Damon and substantially better than Carlos Pena. Second, his glove certainly plays better than Delmon Young’s. Adding Fukudome to a corner would tighten the defense and allow Young to DH.
I’m also guessing the Fukudome would come in at about 5M or less per year. With Young on his way out, I’d even be willing to put a two year offer on the table.
Fukudome’s got a bad rep, mostly because he wasn’t worth the money the Cubs gave him. He’s still a productive player.
I guess there are two cautions. First, his time in Cleveland last year wasn’t good from an OBP standpoint. If they guy’s not getting on base at a better clip than .340, he loses a lot of his value. Second, he doesn’t give us a 3 or 5 spot bat. I’d argue that we have players in position already (Boesch and Avila) that actually make better candidates than even what we’ll find on the market, so I’m not too worried about that, especially if we upgrade substantially at #2.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
I'd prefer to stay away from Fukudome.
He was a great player 2-3 years ago, but has just steadily declined. I’d look elsewhere. Good post, though.
Trumbo
Don’t the Angels have room to drop him off with Pujols and such? It would be interesting and I have no idea what it would take, just something that came to my mind.
people have thrown that around
but I don’t think it’s realistic.
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
Realistic because we cant afford him?
Or because they wont give him up?
They won't give him up
They seem to think he’s a third baseman
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
Kendry Morales?
Is it realistic for us to give them a small-package for him?
I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.
by 10inchexplosion on Jan 18, 2012 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
I really couldn't help myself.
I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany.
by 10inchexplosion on Jan 18, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
Because he doesn't get on base.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
I think they're open to trading somebody away
can’t be certain who it is, though.
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
He's got power, but he never walks.
He’s a little like Delmon Young.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 18, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
great comparison
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
If you're looking for an Angel . . .
Somebody like Abreu might be more doable (and he’s Venezuelan!)
I'm all in for Pena.
I was a huge fan of his while he was on the Rays a few years back. Damon would be the 2nd best option, even though I’d prefer Cespedes before Damon.
1. Pena (Cespedes would be nice too.)
2. Just Cespedes
3. Damon
I vote Pena, as well
if Cespedes isn’t there, I’d have the most faith in Carlos
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
I was freaking out about this injury yesterday,
But really, it’s not a huge deal. We still have the Central in the bag, and anything can happen to anyone once you get in the playoffs. Just look at the Cardinals last year after losing Wainright, perfect example of what we should try to be.
It's definitely a huge deal
But there are other options for the Tigers to be successful in 2012.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
I don't love 50 game suspensions
"I'm a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast food" - Ron Swanson
Exactly
we’d really be in the same situation.. We’d be down both he and Victor until the ASB (probably alot more for Victor). We need to sign somebody who can actually play the whole year
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
Based on what?
Wow. I didn’t think Manny had any fans left.
What, precisely, do you like about him?
Did you like him when he was a good baseball player and have forgotten he’s no longer that guy? Or, you’re referring to liking him as a person (no accounting for taste, I guess)?
by Big Z in Orlando on Jan 19, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
I think Manny is a great clutch hitter
this isn’t based on statistics or anything – i just think when his team needed a big hit (2-3 years ago), he got it.
then aside, i think he’s a big goof, and i like big goofs. he’s entertaining.
and yes the 50 game suspension blows.
the tigers won’t get him, but i’d rather have him than carlos pena, even if carlos pena is better – he’ll more than likely frustrate me without entertaining me
by redwingxviii on Jan 19, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
I agree on entertainment value
It’s hard to beat a sports start doing something unpredictable, and that’s great entertainment.
But… it’s way more fun if it’s happening to someone else’s team, if you ask me.
by Big Z in Orlando on Jan 19, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking as a Red Sox fan
You guys do not want Drew, he’s been slowly falling apart for years, and I’m not sure his heart is really in the game anymore. He’s a fantastic bat when he’s focused, but when he’s distracted, thinking about retirement, he suffers, as 2011 shows.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
Did Boston fans hate him the moment he flew into town?
Not accusing you in particular of anything, but I have never seen a Red Sox fan that likes him and I’ve never really seen why.
by thepartybird on Jan 18, 2012 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
I actually love Drew
I think he’s a great guy, and until last year he was a hell of a ballplayer. The reason the mainstream fans, and I’m sure there are guys on the Tigers who this happens to as well, hate him is because he was being paid a lot, but didn’t have the flashy numbers, avg, RBI, HR.
We love him over at OTM, and were heartbroken to see his last couple years with us go so poorly. I wish him well in the future, but he really should retire at this point.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 18, 2012 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
So he's the exact opposite of Brandon Inge
who is beloved by mainstream Tigers fans, but sucks and won’t go away no matter how many times we pray that he retires.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
I wish Inge would retire too, for what it’s worth, it’s depressing watching baseball players hang on longer than they should.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
In Inge's case
That was sometime around 2005.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
Hanley, Hanley, Hanley
Trade Porcello and any 2 other arms in the minors not named Turner along with one of Garcia/Fields to Miami for Hanley. Something like Porcello/Oliver/Smyly/Fields.
Sign Cespedes, go ahead and DH Young all season.
Turner takes Porcello’s spot in the rotation. Pick up a last minute veteran for the last spot in the rotation and keep whoever is left not traded to Miami on call.
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
As much flak
as you’ll get for suggesting that quote/unquote rosterbation (Hanley), I really think Miami would bite on a deal like that. Dombrowski is obviously the only guy in baseball with as good of a rapport with that front office.. if anybody could get it done, it’d be Dave.
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
Yes, Yes, Yes to Hanley for Porcello / Prospect Package
Solves long term need for speed / proven top of order hitter / 3B immediately.
(would also risk moving Peralta to 3B to accomodate Hanley)
Besides Castellanos is mutliple years away…and would give Marlins more $$ to sign Cespedes
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here
Yes, Headley would be much cheaper, but he’s not better than Hanley Ramirez. Hanley had one bad season, but has otherwise been an elite player for his entire career.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
When you consider the contracts, I'd much rather have Headley
Word is that he actually LIKES to play baseball.
"King of Minutiae"
That changes things
If we’re talking pure talent and production, it’s Hanley by a landslide. I don’t question his love for the game, just his effort at times. And yeah, that contract.
Knock it off
I’ve already bookmarked Headley for Boston.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
The Marlins are back in "win now" mode and looking to fill a new ballpark
I really don’t see them giving up a proven guy who can pass for a fan favorite on a team with no actual fans for a #3/4 starter and prospects.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
retread tigers
why is it you always come up with ex tigers…damon has a lollipop arm…and pena isnt gonna come cheap….no mention of a very fleet juan pierre or ex tiger cody ross? both are free agents…these suggestions you are writing about are ass bad as your wanting oswalt…he’d get ripped in the AL
Did you read the post? There are literally a dozen options listed.
They’re worth bringing up, even if some of them are ass bad. A phrase I’m going to start using, even though it was probably a typo.
he said his pet picks were pena or damon...i saw the others listed...duh
by paul wall 1962 on Jan 18, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
Because Pena makes the most sense for this team
Damon… well, we still love you, Kurt.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
damon's lollipop arm
wouldnt matter anyways because he’d DH
by dominator039 on Jan 18, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
pierre...
pierre has something the tigers lack…speed…i suppose we just throw another slow plodder in the lineup like damon or pena…im talking young at dh and pierre in left…or are you happy with delmon butchering every ball hit over his head??? yes, it was a typo..1 too many s’s…
by paul wall 1962 on Jan 18, 2012 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
Pierre's UZR was -9.2 last season in left field
By comparison, Delmon Young’s was only -2.8. In 2010, Young’s UZR was -10.0. Arguing that Pierre is a defensive upgrade is futile.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
using your own logic
cross off Cody Ross for being a re-tread. And cross off Juan Pierre for not being very good at baseball
"I'm a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast food" - Ron Swanson
ross
cody never actually played for the tigers…if he did it was very minimal…im sure he was traded out of the minor league system…so he’s not actually a retread
by paul wall 1962 on Jan 18, 2012 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
Played 6 games for the Tigers in '03
Still a retread.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
Any actual analysis on the Oswalt thing
or are you just being intellectually lazy and assuming that any pitcher who changes leagues will automatically completely change?
by thepartybird on Jan 18, 2012 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
What's BYB's opinion overall on Oswalt?
Now that Texas has signed Darvish, I expect him to choose a destination soon. I’m hoping it’s Boston, because that’s the only way I can see to salvage our offseason, but I’m worried Dombrowski is going to jump in and grab him.
Your rotation would be absolutely sick with Oswalt by the way, top three in the AL, if not the best.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 18, 2012 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
I think we'd like to see him in Detroit.
I know I would
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
Yes please
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
im sure oswalt wouldn't come cheap...if thats the case they should have signed buerhle
by paul wall 1962 on Jan 18, 2012 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
By all reports, 1 year/8 million.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
Other than Mr. Wall, most of BYB is in favor of Oswalt
I’ve got a voodoo doll ready, just in case he decides to go elsewhere.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
Unfortunate for him, I've got one in case he decides to go somewhere other than Boston.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
JUAN PIERRE IS NOT AN OPTION
BECAUSE I SAID SO
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
also because Rogo said so
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
God damn Pierre
I grew to hate him this year when listening to the White Sox broadcasts in the car. Hearing Ed Farmer call him “Jean Pierre” with a stupid faux-French accent every time he stepped up to the plate made me barf a little in my mouth.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
Domonic Brown
Domonic Brown…He’s not a big bat that everyone wants, but he has fallen out off the radar for the Phillies. His work ethic has been questioned, but if we could get him for cheap, I’d love to have him around.
Also
I like this
And I could see Turner for Brown.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
I could see it happening
But I don’t like the idea.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
Same
I’m not sold on Dom and Philly will want far too much in return for him
Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual
He's still only 24, which is why you have to think about it
But I don’t know if he’s one to put it all together. His position is also working against him. Unless he becomes a complete superstar, outfielders like him are a dime a dozen in the MLB. He doesn’t play a premium position or fill a need for this roster.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
I can't see his name
and not read it as “Demonic.”
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
Not Pena!
Pena does not come close to replacing VMart. He strikes out way too much. What good is walking going to do hitting behind MCab? We need someone that can hit. I say best bet at a FA DH is Vlad. He did bat close to .300 and drove in nearly 70 rbi’s on a horrible Orioles team. Just throwing this out there. Derrick Lee has alway been a high OPS guy? I think our best move would be a trade for a big name. How about David Wright from Mets?
by DavisonTigerfan on Jan 18, 2012 7:48 PM EST reply actions
But...
Are we looking to “replace” V-Mart, or are we seeing this as an opportunity to add pieces to make us better now and give us depth in the future for when V-Mart comes back next year?
Rental
I think we go after a 1 year rental player. that’s why I suggested Vlad or Derrick Lee. If we could get Wright from mets we cold slide Delmon into DH and put Raburn or Wilks in LF.
by DavisonTigerfan on Jan 18, 2012 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
Rental
Wright obviously wouldn’t be a rental!
by DavisonTigerfan on Jan 18, 2012 8:09 PM EST up reply actions
I bet Cherington would be willing to trade Kevin Youkilis
:)
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 18, 2012 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
Youkilis
I’d take Youk. Only if they put his locker next to Porcello’s!
by DavisonTigerfan on Jan 18, 2012 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
Cherington would probably trade him
but he’d want a starting pitcher in return.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 18, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
You probably wouldn't get one out of our rotation
That’s the thing: you might get Scherzer, but that opens a hole too. So we’d need to fill it with two starting pitchers.
FWIW, if we had Oswalt signed and in the rotation, I might do Scherzer for Youklis.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
That's what I thought
it’s why the Youk for Marcum train never got going either.
I’d love to have Scherzer in Boston, but I just don’t see a trade working out there.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 18, 2012 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
If we were to pull something like that off
I would hope that Oswalt is offered a multi-year deal, or has options tacked on to the one-year deal he seems to prefer right now.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
We'd theoretically have Turner and Smyly waiting in the wings
So I wouldn’t worry as much.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 18, 2012 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
Will Smyly be ready by 2013 though?
By all accounts he made a pretty significant jump last season. I’d like to see if that was the real deal or if 2011 was a fluke, so to speak.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting that this discussion went down so well
Usually when I bring up trade suggestions on other sites they respond with “OMG, U R DUM RED SUX FAN. OUR TEEM IS BETTER THAN URS, WE DUN WANT UR SMELLY PLAYERS.”
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Good to know.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Red Sox fans have become just as insufferable, as a whole.
That whole Red Sox Nation marketing schtick didn’t help.
I have a grand idea: let's win a game.
I live in Kalamazoo dude.
I haven’t lived in New England for 11 years.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
agree with this
Before 2004, I could see rooting for them against the evil empire. now they are an evil empire.
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 19, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think the "evil empire" label works anymore
There are too many of them, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Texas, LAA… all spend tons of money and are constantly competitive. Detroit’s creeping up there too.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
but only one of those teams listed has a "nation"
and it’s own national television network in Bristol, CT
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 19, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
The Yankees have an "empire" and their own Network.
Hell, even the Orioles have MASN.
I’m not trying to defend the pink hats, they annoy me to no end just like I’m sure they do to you. I’m just frustrated with having people roll their eyes at me when I tell them I’m a Sox fan.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
Too late - the ability to be taken seriously as a Red Sox fan crossed the Rubicon quite some time ago.
I have a grand idea: let's win a game.
I'd think the way this organization moves players, yeah
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 19, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I am so glad
that everyone told me that after the 5th batter in the line-up for each team the game is over. I mean it isn’t like we are going to have Peralta (80+ RBI last year) and Avila (also 80+ RBI last year) hitting behind the 350+ OBP Pena to help hit him and Cabby (who will be in scoring position since Pena walked him to 2B…) in.
No, we need someone who is good at baseball.
Vlad is not good at baseball anymore – he was replacement level last year by fWAR.
I don’t understand the support for Vlad here. He is worse than Andy Dirks and would cost money the Tigers could be giving to a better player (if Pena doesn’t happen, Oswalt or even Cespedes fit the bill).
About Pena’s patience potentially working against the Tigers: If Pena is walked after Cabrera was pitched around, that’s a good thing. Avila at the plate with at least two aboard sounds pretty good, doesn’t it? If they want to put more guys on base, why stop them? It all comes down to not making outs, which Pena does much better than Vlad (with a lot more power to boot).
by thepartybird on Jan 18, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
The problem with Vlad is the drop off in power last season
He’s never been a great OBP guy but made up for it because he’s as strong as a gorilla. It remains to be seen if his drop in power (119 OPS+ in ’10 to 101 in ’11) is due to age or just a fluke season for a crappy team.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
Si him where?
Walking back to the dugout?
by H2OPoloPunk on Jan 18, 2012 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
i would take vlad
just me. the guy can still hit. maybe not as many hrs but still. no pena or damon! problem solved if we get cepedes, young can dh. but that is all hoping he pans out.
you tube video....
…does not make a MLB player. Cespedes is not going to be the second coming of the say hey kid Willie Mays! The Cuban league is Single A ball here. We need a lead off hitter (Juan Pierre) to get Jackson down to 9 Move Cabrera to 3 and Delmon Young to 4
you do realize that scouts have watched him in live action and rave over him, right?
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 18, 2012 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
His Winter League numbers have me less than impressed
Small sample size though.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 18, 2012 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Here's the thing....
For reasons even I don’t completely understand, I now live in Miami. I can tell you the team down here is really going to go ape about signing this guy. Baseball doesn’t sell in this town (WEIRD I KNOW) but getting a Cuban wunderkind in center might get the locales involved for a year or two. I think the Marlins really will do anything to sign the kid. I realize it makes as much sense as that 2012 movie, but I think he’s a Marlin.
Cespedes prefers Cubs???
Heard Cespedes said Theo “pursued” him the most and Cubs have the inside track…
I would hate to see a talent like that wasted by the Cubs
I would honestly rather see him go to the Indians.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
so DD can trade for him at the deadline in a few years?
"I'm a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast food" - Ron Swanson
Has any Cuban League player really panned out recently?
Jose Iglesias was supposed to be Ozzie Smith, but that didn’t work out. Aroldis Chapman was supposed to be Randy Johnson, but he’s a wild setup guy…
The only guy I can think of really amounting to anything spectacular is Luis Tiant, am I overlooking people?
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
True, I forgot he was from Cuba
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
And they rave
because he can do things like This
by rif23 on Jan 19, 2012 8:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Carlos Lee
The guy’s stats weren’t bad at all, not to mention he strikes out fewer times than Martinez, and walks, & homers more. Sure, he can’t run, but he stole more than Martinez. Houston is willing to take most of his salary off, and we may be able to package and get Rodriguez and Lee. Solving 2 problems in 1 trade.
What about the other Lee?
Derek Lee? He could be an option.
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
I'd still take Pena over him
But it’s not a bad idea. Much more patient hitter than Guerrero.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 18, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
I think Pena is my No. 1 option, too
But I always liked DLee. I did just look up his baseball-reference page though and it aid he only took 33 walks last season… way down from his normal average. But then again, he was playing for Baltimore and Pittsburgh and was sort of relied upon to be the No. 1 run producing guy there.
So I dunno. If he can get back on track this year I’d take him if we couldn’t get Pena.
(As a point of comparison, though: Vlad only walked 19 times. So I would rather not have him.)
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
Exactly
Vlad’s game is not going to age well because he doesn’t walk a lot. The average will probably always be there (see: Magglio) but the power won’t. Lee’s walks will probably jump back up this season no matter where he plays. He would be a good fit in the 3 spot if we don’t sign Pena, IMO. I wonder if he has any problems DHing.
Get the best hitter that bashes right handed pitching the best
That way our line-up will be more balance and since we have two platoons going what is one more.
Cabrera hit better without VMart in the lineup
.338/.442/.577 (141 games with VMart) and .394/.494/.652 (18 games without VMart)
Sample sizes!
"trout jefferson is using multiple numbers and no swears. I barely recognize you man." - Kurt Mensching
by Trout Jefferson on Jan 19, 2012 3:51 AM EST up reply actions
Pena
Pena, Cespedes, Damon, Lee(if we give virtually nothing & they eat all but 5 mil)…after that…id just asume DH delmon play raburn in left & platoon santiago w Worth
by Wolverine119 on Jan 19, 2012 1:22 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I realize this may not be a popular opinion
But Carl Crawford might be a good fit for you guys. He’d actually be able to play defense in a stadium with a real LF, would allow you to move Young to DH, and could fit into your #2 spot in the rotation when (if) he bounces back from wrist surgery. I know he’s risky, and he’s expensive, but if Boston picks up, say, a third of his salary and doesn’t ask for Jacob Turner in return, could a deal get done here?
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
I would say
but I think Boston wouldn’t give up on him that soon
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 19, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
I've said this since Boston signed him
Crawford does not fit in Fenway Park. He’s the exact opposite type of player that Boston needs in front of the Monster. Instead of a rangy guy who can cover a lot of ground, Fenway needs an arm guy who can pick off the runner trying to stretch Monster hits into doubles.
He’s also had terrible offensive numbers throughout his career at Fenway, which, through nine games per year over 8 years is hardly a small sample size. He doesn’t fit the Boston player profile, and is taking up money that could be better served locking up Ellsbury to a long-term deal, or signing a pitcher so the Sox have a competent rotation.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
I would do that deal in a heartbeat
Boston would be fools to do it though. Crawford is much better than his numbers last year. I don’t know if he can hold up till the end of his contract, but he will probably perform too it for the next couple years.
I'm not a fan of Crawford
But I agree that he would solve the problems that you mentioned. I was against signing him last offseason because I thought he would be overpaid, and he was. I think that Boston’s demands would start with Turner and/or Nick Castellanos though, so I don’t see a deal like that happening from our end.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 19, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
I was thinking Scherzer/Smyly
For Crawford/Doubront/cash.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Which, now that I'm looking at it
seems a lot to give up from your side.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
I think the Red Sox would try to get a bit more.
Though contract considerations may play into it; not sure Detroit would give up Scherzer for the reason Tokarz mentioned above.
I have a grand idea: let's win a game.
That's why I had Doubront in the deal
He’s not Scherzer, but prior to 2011 he put up numbers that are somewhat similar to Porcello.
The Red Sox would want to trade Crawford, if they traded him at all for ML-ready starting pitching. That’s their big hole right now.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Finding a DH is relatively easy. We suck at Third Base.
Why not solve the problem this way. Trade for David Wright and have him hit behind Miguel. His career stats are as follows: BB: 11.2%, K: 18.8%, ISO: 208, AVG: 300, OBP: 380, SLG: 508.
Inge can make himself somewhat useful as a late inning defensive replacement. Delmon moves to DH. Rayburn and Dirks platoon in left. Santiago plays second.
Delmon essentially becomes our “one year rental” to replace Victor. Wright stays for up to two years until Castellanos is ready.
Rayburn or Dirks leads off. Delmon bats third. Wright fifth. Jackson ninth.
Trade Porcello to get Wright. We will win the Central again with this line up. We need three very strong starting pitchers to get to the World Series. We already have them in
Verlander, Fister and Scherzer. Pick up a free agent pitcher for our fourth slot and give the fifth to whichever young pitcher steps up.
a few things
I’m pretty sure Wright has only one year on his contract with an option that he can opt out of or gets voided if he is traded, so he would basically be a rental too. Also the Mets would ask for Turner and/or Castellanos plus other pieces in the deal. The lack of offense at 3rd can be made up by the fact the the Tigers get offense out of positions that the rest of the AL is weak in (C, SS, and if Raburn produces 2B) and having the best hitter in the AL helps a bit too. I think signing or trading for guys to get on base in front of Miguel would be more beneficial
"I'm a simple man. I like pretty, dark-haired women and breakfast food" - Ron Swanson
by rock n rye on Jan 19, 2012 11:37 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
The Wright idea isn't terrible
But your setup is all wrong. Raburn and Santiago are platooning at 2B. This has already been decided by the Tigers’ brass. Young will be in LF unless Cespedes is signed and is actually the guy in these videos. Unless Oswalt is signed, the rotation won’t get us to the World Series, and I would question whether it would even win us the division.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 19, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Michael Young
If Texas really wants to make a run at Fielder, they need to free up some cash, Michael Young would be the perfect fit for us. He cold play second, third, first or DH
I would love Young
Just don’t think it will happen. Mostly because I don’t believe Texas really wants Fielder for the amount of money and length of contract it will require. In fact, Fielder may have real trouble getting anywhere near the contract he wants simply because it carries so much risk for anyone to take on.
The idea of a long-term fix at second base is VERY appealing, however.
Young would be great for us
But I’d be very surprised if Texas would help a team that they’re likely to face in the playoffs again this season upgrade that significantly.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
If it helps them leapfrog the Angels
I could see that being done.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 19, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
A year ago, when Michael Young was asking to be traded,
maybe you could have gotten him for a reasonable price.
Probably not now.
Problem with all this speculation is that the better options are not free agents, and it is hard to imagine any team parting with one of them without demanding a LOT in exchange.
I do like the idea of replacing Delmon in the outfield, using him as the regular DH, and adding a solid OBP guy for the front end of the order, preferrably one who can play third and maybe spell Santiago at second as needed. Michael Young would fill that bill nicely.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 19, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
And even then (last year)
the Rangers would not pull the trigger on a trade.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 19, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Martinez
Other teams might see this as a chance to upgrade 3B or 2B, but it seems the Tigers are willing to let Inge/somebody hold the space for Castellanos, and they are willing to put up with the worst 2B defense in the civilized world to keep Raburn’s bat in the lineup. Absent changes at 2B or 3B, I might look to add a left fielder who can actually play a little defense, (Cespedes? We don’t really know how Cespedes’s performance elsewhere matches up) and move Delmon to DH. The biggest real fear is whether or not Victor is the new Guillen.
FWIW I will be surprised if the Tigers are able to
out-bid the Marlins for Cespedes. His value as a fan-draw is likely far higher in Miami, especially since the Tigers already have such a strong fan base.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 20, 2012 3:48 PM EST reply actions
Martinez
Yes, bid for Cespedes, but don’t put faith in him for this year (see Scott Sizemore). Personally, I like the Fukudome-style option – get an OBP guy who can defend and doesn’t cost too much, move Delmon to DH. Don’t back down on Cespedes.

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