Jim Leyland on the Tigers' lineup with Prince Fielder
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 26, 2012 5:31 PM EST
in Detroit Tigers News
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Print"It's amazing. Because every lineup I've written down so far, (Miguel) Cabrera and (Prince) Fielder are in that lineup."
Tigers manager Jim Leyland has had a happy couple of days in filling out imaginary lineup cards. This is the one he recited during the Tigers' press conference held today to announce the signing of Prince Fielder:
1. Austin Jackson (RH)
2. Brennan Boesch (LH)
3. Miguel Cabrera (RH)
4. Prince Fielder (LH)
5. Delmon Young (RH)
6. Alex Avila (LH)
7. Jhonny Peralta (RH)
8. ?
9. ?
Basically, Leyland said a combination of Clete Thomas(!), Andy Dirks, Ramon Santiago, Don Kelly, Ryan Raburn and Brandon Inge, as needed would fill out the eight and nine spots. Obviously we know this is a lineup only in theory, because Leyland tends to use quite a few over the course of the year, since players do get their rest days.
"We're going to have tremendous flexibility with this roster," Leyland said. "It's going to be a very fun roster to manage."
People can say what they will about team speed, but Leyland knows the team he has isn't a fast one and -- thankfully -- doesn't have to be. "If they hit them where they're supposed to hit them, they can trot around the bases," Leyland said.
"But I've told everyone forever, I’d rather have a slow guy who can hit than a fast guy who can’t," Leyland said. "We’re a doubles team,. That’s Dave (Dombrowski)'s favorite hit in baseball. We’re not really a manufacture type team. Any good manager, you manage the people you have to get the best out of them. The players’ job is not to adjust to the manager’s style, it’s the manager's job to adjust to the players' style."
This is a separate upcoming story, but Cabrera is slated to play third base in Leyland's lineup. Brandon Inge will appear at third on some days as well. Leyland does not anticipate using Inge as a defensive replacement for Cabrera in late-game situations, however.
So what would you do with your lineups?
Everyone in unison: Why, I thought he'd never ask!
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Opening Day Lineup
1. Cabrera (3B)
2. Fielder (1B)
3. Cabrera (3B)
4. Fielder (1B)
5. Cabrera (3B)
6. Fielder (1B)
7. Cabrera (3B)
8. Fielder (1B)
9. Inge (DH)
Benevolent despot, Hustle Belt — SBN's MAC blog
by Matt Sussman on Jan 26, 2012 5:34 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Copycat
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Other than Inge batting ninth I don't see any similarities
Benevolent despot, Hustle Belt — SBN's MAC blog
by Matt Sussman on Jan 26, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Heh
SS Peralta®
RF Boesch (L)
3B Cabrera®
1B Fielder (L)
DH Young®
C Avila (L)
2B Raburn®
LF Cespedes®- yeah, I said it.
CF Jackson®
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
You said it.
And I’ll agree. Will not be convinced the Tigers are out until he’s signed somewhere else. Especially after he said he doesn’t want to be in Miami.
by Let's do this! on Jan 26, 2012 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
cespedes
i agree,i think that no to miami thing is a tactic to drive up the price.hes more of a fit now than before.
by tigerfaninboston on Jan 27, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
WTF Peralta leadoff?
We already have a leadoff hitter that doesnt walk…we dont need one without speed too
The problem with winter sports is that - follow me closely here - they generally take place in winter.
Better OBP
Makes sense to me. I wouldn’t do it, but it does make sense. Peralta had almost a .030 better OBP last season.
by Let's do this! on Jan 26, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, last year
But that was due to his .299 average. His career OBP is only .330. I’d rather have Jackson up there and Peralta lower in the order to drive guys in. His power is more useful in the 6-7 spots.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Who else leads off?
Because I don’t want Jackson…
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 26, 2012 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
I'd give it to Jackson to start the year
When he’s getting on base, he’s the best leadoff option we have. If he struggles, I’d move Avila up there.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't have an issue with either or
But I like the idea of putting Peralta up there, if he can recreate what he did last year, and wait to see how Jackson does.
by Let's do this! on Jan 26, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
I think you have to start with Jackson because of what it can turn into
Peralta and Avila probably have higher floors than Jackson, but I think that they are more valuable in other lineup spots.
Amid all the craziness of the past two days, an opposing player or coach said something along the lines of “If Jackson is getting on base, that team is unbeatable.” From August 19th to September 14th last season, the Tigers went 22-4 and scored 6.3 runs per game. Jackson’s numbers during that stretch: .279/.353/.490.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Very good point
You’re absolutely right. When he turns it on, this team kills it. So probably.
But I’m really curious to see how he does with him having worked on his swing..
by Let's do this! on Jan 26, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
I guess I’m just more optimistic about Jackson’s potential this season than others. I think that he has earned the opportunity to start another season as the leadoff hitter because he’s shown flashes of potential, he’s apparently re-tooled his swing, and he’s still young.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I would have liked to see DD
pick up an alternative to AJ as the leadoff batter, but since that does not appear likely, plan B would be to give Austin another chance there and if he still cannot improve his OBP (and especially cut down on the K’s) look for someone before the trade deadline.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know if DD has to look for someone at the deadline
There are guys on the roster that can get on base consistently. It might be a tall order, but convincing Leyland to use a non-stereotypical leadoff hitter could be all that the Tigers need.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Do you see that happening?
I am older than dirt. JL is older than I am and way more stubborn.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
No, I don't
We’ll see if DD goes shopping at the deadline. Hopefully Jackson gives him no need to do so.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 8:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yup! I hope so.
The kid has talent — that much is obvious. Cutting down the strikeouts will do him WORLDS better. Here’s hoping!
by Let's do this! on Jan 26, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm with you
We’re too far gone to stop now, and I doubt Dombrowski is going to let this one go. He wants him bad.
by metatron5369 on Jan 26, 2012 6:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Went ahead and trademarked nearly the whole lineup, eh?
Gonna sue Leyland when he tried to bat Cabby 3rd?
Fan of the Detroit Tigers, Lions and Red Wings.
Opening day
1. Austin Jackson (RH)
2. Brennan Boesch (LH)
3. Miguel Cabrera (RH)
4. Prince Fielder (LH)
5. Delmon Young (RH)
6. Alex Avila (LH)
7. Jhonny Peralta (RH)
8. Andy Dirks (LH)
9. Ryan Raburn (RH)
I think it’ll be awesome.
I'm watching Raburn closely.
If he can avoid the huge early season slump and be adequate in the field, he may end up being far and away the best 9 hitter in baseball.
and when it happens
he is Brandon Inge….except he cant field either.
The problem with winter sports is that - follow me closely here - they generally take place in winter.
Absolutely
I just wish he could put two great halves together…
by Let's do this! on Jan 26, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
I love the idea of Boesch in the 2 slot
Since he’s been in Detroit, it seems like he hits a lot better when his mentality at the plate is “see ball, hit ball” rather than trying to hit for power. I know it’s a looooong shot, but we could potentially see something like 30 HR, 80 RBI, 100+ runs scored from him this season. This is obviously a best case scenario, but that’s what January is for.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn't doubt that at all
Not for one minute. I really like Boesch and think he has the potential to hit like that — especially with a lineup like this surrounding him.
by Let's do this! on Jan 26, 2012 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
He might see less than 1,000 pitches the entire season hitting in front of Cabrera and Fielder
It’ll be a steady diet of fastballs until someone decides that he’s more dangerous than the two behemoths behind him.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Boesch's key is to not swing at bad pitches
He’s not your typical lefty hitter. He likes the ball away, and doesn’t like the hard, biting slider thrown at his back heel from a RHP. He made great progress laying off the high fastball out of the zone and cut his swing pct down last year, increasing his contact pct by 4%. That’s quite a bit. If he lays off the junk and forces pitchers to put it over the plate, look out!
"King of Minutiae"
I'm thinking of filing the paperwork
To create the “Bat Alex Avila Leadoff Super PAC”
.389 OBP last year, second only to Miggy. 70 points above Ajax.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
You should probably rename it
to the Definitely Not Coordinating With Alex Avila Super PAC.
by frisbeepilot on Jan 26, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Then refuse to give it back to him
"Goaltending is a normal job, sure. How would you like it in your job if every time you made a small mistake, a red light went on over your desk and 15,000 people stood up and yelled at you."
-Jacques Plante
by DetroitSports on Jan 26, 2012 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
Leave Jackson with his speed at leadoff
and put Avila’s OBP in the two hole in front of the two big mashers
I need a couple lineups to answer this...
What I would do if I was Jimmy:
1. Jackson R CF
2. Boesch L RF
3. Cabrera R 3B
4. Fielder L 1B
5. Peralta R SS
6. Avila L C
7. Young R LF
8. Raburn R DH
9. Santiago S 2B
Wow, we have a lot of power bats in the middle. To address…Miggy seems serious about playing 3B, so I’ll give it to him until he fails. Let’s be real, Inge is declining anyways, so the only real better defensive option there is Don Kelly, and he’s better as a super sub. I know Leyland has said before he doesn’t like Ramon as an every day player, but I think he’s our best option at 2B right now-and if not him, then I’ll take Kelly there. Or make another small move to get someone else. I will not put Raburn there, so you can shoot me now if you’re holding me at gunpoint. Raburn should only be a corner outfielder or DH. Particularly given that our corner infielders are average at best defensively (and that’s stretching it), if you don’t plan to make Santiago the every day or at least platoon him and Kelly, you need to make a move at 2B, or infield defense suffers too much, especially when Porcello and to some degree Fister pitch.
For offense…you could flop Peralta and Avila, but I was trying for good R-L splits with that. Other than that, I love everything else about it.
THAT BEING SAID, WHAT JIM WILL ACTUALLY DO (either on opening day or soon after):
1. Jackson R CF
2. Raburn R 2B
3. Cabrera R 3B
4. Fielder L 1B
5. Young R DH
6. Avila L C
7. Peralta R SS
8. Boesch L RF
9. Dirks R LF
Likes Raburn too much, doesn’t trust Santiago every day, stuff like that.
I don't know that he'll put Boesch that low
Boesch was lower than 5th only 43 of his career games and in the 8th spot only nine times. I think he it far more likely to be in that 5th spot again or in the 2nd spot of the lineup.
by Let's do this! on Jan 26, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I have to admit I did get a bit stuck...
On where to put Boesch in the second lineup. But I’m thoroughly convinced he’ll bat Raburn second pretty quickly.
by slapshots1515 on Jan 26, 2012 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
But only if he actually hits. Until he reaches that point, which could be All-Star break, I think he’ll be lower in the lineup.
by Let's do this! on Jan 26, 2012 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
Boesch has been one to start faster
It’s Raburn that deserves to be buried until the ASB.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 8:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Right
Yeah, that’s what I meant. I forgot to include Raburn’s name, sorry. I really like the idea of Boesch batting 2nd.
by Let's do this! on Jan 26, 2012 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
boesch will be second
leyland likes him better than rayburn
by forwarddownthefield on Jan 26, 2012 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
If Raburn makes adjustments and hits like he can, he is going to be in the lineup
where I depart thoughts from Leyland is that RR is at 2B to get Dirks, Cletus or Kelly into the lineup.
First thought is to get Santiago in there when Porcello is pitching for us, no matter who is pitching for them.
"King of Minutiae"
I'm fine with Raburn in the lineup
He’s good enough at the plate to warrant at-bats, even if he can be frustrating at times. I can’t stand him in the infield. Not only can he not turn a DP, he can’t even seem to make the routine play.
by slapshots1515 on Jan 26, 2012 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
I've been wondering
Who hits more home runs this season, Cabrera or Fielder ?
"But the point is, finger-pointing is just what sports fans do when something doesn't go right." -- Kurt Mensching
by RealityIsOptionable on Jan 26, 2012 6:48 PM EST reply actions
My money is on Fielder
Due to the fact that he might hit like 10 alone in a 3-game series at Yankee Stadium.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It has looked to me as if
Miguel has been trending upward in average, not so much in power. Playing at third will give him more incentive to lose some weight and therefore possibly also some power. So, the not as it turns out vegetarian Prince is more likely in my mind to hit 40+ HRs. I am OK with that. Miggy can rake, even slimmed down, and in the 3 slot that is even more important.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
This should be a very spiffy lineup!!!
man can you imagine if the other guys in front of 3 and 4 bat at least .275?
11-11-11 !!!
Go Wings!!!
Better yet
Imagine .350 OBPs from both of them.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Leyland said
“Dirks, Thomas, Kelly eighth and Raburn ninth”.
That’s what he said. That sounds like Delmon is DH, a lefty bat is in LF, and Rayburn butchering at second base.
No mention of Santiago or Inge.
"King of Minutiae"
Meh, it's January
And remember, he can’t smoke at the CoPa. He might not have been thinking clearly.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Really?
Rayburn? Didn’t expect that from you
"I will play tomorrow unless I am dead when I wake up" - Victor Martinez
hey even I typed it once when transcribing some quotes
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 26, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
I believe it is just from the sheer times you see it done thinking it is the correct spelling.
It gets in your head.
Clete? Seriously?!!!
A Dirks/Thomas platoon in LF would be a defensive upgrade, no doubt, but seeing Clete mentioned in the equation at this point makes me think JL is sending up a bit of a smoke screen.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 7:25 PM EST reply actions
well I mean, he's on the 40 man roster
a lot of people thought he’d be removed in november and he wasn’t. gotta crap or get off the pot, right?
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 26, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
I have always thought of Clete as emergency insurance.
Keep him in the minors to call up if needed to fill in for an injury.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Also, Danny Worth is still on the 40-man roster
and actually played in the bigs last year, but JL is not mentioning him as part of the juggling act. Of course I am probably one of three people, including his extended family, that thinks Danny could contribute if allowed enough of a chance.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
Cletus is out of options for sure now.
He was before, but an injury let them appeal to MLB for an extra option year.
Either he makes the team, or he has to clear waivers to be sent down, in which case he’ll be outrighted off the roster.
"King of Minutiae"
Worst infield defense in the history of baseball.
I agree with the avila superpac idea. Jackson should be at the bottom of the order. Is best to have speed at the bottom of the order where we want to “scrap” out runs.
1. Avila C
2. Boesch LF
3. Cabrera 3RD
4. Fielder 1ST
5. Young DH
6. Peralta SS
7. Dirks RF
8. Jackson C
9. Raburn 2ND
With Raburn at 2nd, you may be right.
I still think Ramon starts at 2B way more than half of the games this season, and RR ends up in the outfield from time to time. Defensively, he is not worse than Delmon in LF. He is clearly worse than Santiago at 2nd.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
Agree with your title
We are looking at some horrific infield defense… I’ve got to believe something will have to give and someone (Cabrera, Raburn, Fielder) will have to do some DH work to get a glove in there… or maybe we should just equip them all with nets.
Anyway, let’s dwell on the positive – this line up is going to rack up some runs!
by texastigerfan on Jan 26, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
Thing is,
I would love to see Delmon as the regular DH, since he is even, in my view, a bigger defensive liability in left than Miggy or the Prince would be at the corners (time may prove me wrong).
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions
That's true..
it would be great to Delmon out of the OF (picture Dirks/Jackson/Boesch – that sounds a lot better).. that sure makes for an ugly IF though… and JL is saying he won’t take Cabrera out for late inning defense?
Hmmm 2-1 tigers; top the 9th; Verlander gave up one (unearned run) on a ball booted by Cabrera; overthrow at 2nd by Cabrera trying to get the runner and then the runner scores when Cabrera misses the throwback from Raburn.. Cabrera makes the last out of the 8th; Valverde is in for his 1,158th consec. save.. Seriously? Cabrera doesn’t come out for defense?
by texastigerfan on Jan 26, 2012 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
I'm thinking
Not only the worst infield defense, that outfield doesn’t look to
spiffy after Jackson either.
by Greg Sleight on Jan 27, 2012 8:50 AM EST up reply actions
Boesch isn't great
But Dirks or Thomas should grade out to about average.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 27, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Vs. Righties:
1. Avila C
2. Boesch RF
3. Cabrera 3B
4. Fielder 1B
5. Peralta SS
6. Young DH
7. Dirks LF
8. Santiago 2B
9. Jackson CF
Vs. Lefties
1. Peralta SS
2. Boesch RF
3. Cabrera 3B
4. Fielder 1B
5. Avila C
6. Raburn LF
7. Young DH
8.
by TJ92 on Jan 26, 2012 8:00 PM EST via mobile reply actions
sorry posting from phone
Finish that off with Santiago and Jackson again
by TJ92 on Jan 26, 2012 8:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Would growing the infield grass really thick actually help???
On one side, this might slow down the ball and increase the chance for our slow infield to get to the ball.
On the other side, bunts would be very hard to field for Cabrera at 3rd.
Thoughts anyone?
Interesting
That’s an interesting possibility. Some coaches see an advantage in how the field grass plays to a certain kind of game. A half-step can mean the difference in some games.
by Parrothead Mike on Jan 26, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
Back in the 80's . . .
. . . the Tigers were notorious for leaving the infield grass at Tiger Stadium long . . .
I still think
That there is at least 1 trade ahead of the Tigers before spring training. I honestly don’t think that Inge, Santiago, Thomas & dirks will all be on the team when the season starts. I think that Cespedes could be in the mix as well. I don’t see EJax back in Detroit, however.
"I’m not a talker on the field, but if you say something to me, I may say something back to you or I may ignore you. It’s funny because a lot of guys usually come up and say something to me like right before, something like ‘Have a good game,’ or whatever, and I just ignore it. I’m not here to meet friends. I’m here to cause you problems and meet your quarterback. I’ll shake his hand when I’m hitting him." Ndamakong Suh
by Detroitfantc on Jan 26, 2012 8:08 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Glad to hear
Suh is not a talker ON the field.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
???
???
"I’m not a talker on the field, but if you say something to me, I may say something back to you or I may ignore you. It’s funny because a lot of guys usually come up and say something to me like right before, something like ‘Have a good game,’ or whatever, and I just ignore it. I’m not here to meet friends. I’m here to cause you problems and meet your quarterback. I’ll shake his hand when I’m hitting him." Ndamakong Suh
by Detroitfantc on Jan 28, 2012 8:30 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
i believe you start with Ajax
and hope he hits more like 2 years ago. its your best bet for production. NO WAY you lead off with Avila, catchers dont often lead off, and you dont want him filling in that role.
by forwarddownthefield on Jan 26, 2012 8:08 PM EST reply actions
1) LF-Dirks
2) RF – Boesch
3) 3B – Cabrera
4) 1B – Fielder
5) SS – Peralta
6) C – Avila
7) DH – Young
8) CF – Jackson
9) 2B – Inge
Inge Can Still Cover A Good Amount Of Ground With His Glove
Inge is quick reflexed, has a good glove & arm. He can cover more ground than Raburn or Santiago. We really need his defense for one more year. Someone else mentioned putting him at Shortstop & moving Peralta, I think I like that even better than my idea. His arm is better than Peralta’s.
by TigersFan1957 on Jan 27, 2012 2:07 AM EST up reply actions
I don't understand this at all
Peralta is a very solid defender at SS. He had a .988 fielding percentage there last year and led the league in zone runs at the position. He rarely commits errors, plays the DP well and doesn’t bounce balls to first. When you’ve got an All-Star like him at a position, why would you move him to a different spot on the field just to get a .197 batter like Inge more playing time?
Also, I think you’re overstating Inge’s defensive value these days. Last season, Peralta committed seven errors in 145 games at SS. Inge committed nine errors in 99 games at 3B. (Inge’s dirty secret is that while he makes a lot of plays with his glove, he also commits a lot of errors. He’s led the league three times in errors at 3B.)
As for Raburn, no. He’s not a great fielder. But for all that he drives me nuts sometimes, you have to cut the guy a little slack — he played at every position except SS, C and P last season.1 He’s never had a season in which he played at fewer than five positions, and that’s inherently going to make his defense at any one of them suffer in comparison to an everyday player at one position. Even with First Half Raburn included, he’s also a much better hitter than Inge is these days.
Santiago is also an offensive upgrade and even arguably defensively comparable to 2011 Inge. One error in 40 starts at 2B last season, two errors in 22 starts at SS. He also batted 50 points higher than Inge, hitting both RHP and LHP more than 100 points of OPS higher from each side of the plate. Switch hitters are incredibly tactically valuable, why pull or platoon one with somebody who simply cannot hit RHP any more?
1 – Plus, he tips his cap when the crowd sarcastically applauds a routine play from him. You have to respect that.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
Errors aren't a good way to evaluate defense
Range is much more important. It’s why Peralta doesn’t grade out as a great defender, nor will Cabrera (despite strong footwork and good hands).
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 27, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Just a second...
Didnt Jhonny post a pretty good UZR this past season?
by MotorCityCat on Jan 27, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
He did, 9.9
It was the only time in his career that he’s had a positive UZR in a season with more than 1,000 innings played though. And even then, his range itself wasn’t great. Of course, this entirely depends on me interpreting Fangraphs correctly, which is a pretty tall order.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 27, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
you did, congratulations!
However, he had a negative DRS from baseball info solutions.
This is why it’s unsafe to rely on any one defensive measure too much.
by Kurt Mensching on Jan 27, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
My point, which I didn’t illustrate well enough now that I read it again, was that last year seems more like an anomaly from Peralta (in terms of UZR) than the norm. I think he could be average at SS. His range isn’t great, but he does a great job with what he does get to.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 27, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jhonny made the plays that he got to
He was incredibly efficeint on balls within his (limited) range. He also wasn’t half bad moving to his left, up the middle, to turn a DP or make a play. To his right in the hole, now toward Miggy, not very good. But the way he hit, he was absolutely fine.
"King of Minutiae"
finaly somebody leads off Dirks
inge needs to go,………..please
by Robeartoe on Jan 26, 2012 8:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
1) LF Dirks
2) SS Peralta
3) 3B Cabrera
4) 1B Fielder
5) C Avila
6) DH Young
7) RF Boesch
8) 2B Santiago
9) CF Jackson
Better.
Could do worse than with Dirks at leadoff, AJ in the 9 slot.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
You guys realize that Dirks' OBP was lower than Jackson's last year, right?
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hmmm
Can I get away with the “small sample size” excuse here? I think if Dirks had the consistent playing time that Jackson had, numbers would have been better. But that is just a hunch.
by FarAwayLionFan on Jan 26, 2012 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
Ehhh, not really
Dirks’ career OBP in the minors is still only .351. I doubt he ever gets to that number in the majors. Jackson had an OBP of .345 in 2010, which is probably closer to what he will do on a consistent basis if he cuts down on the strikeouts.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
.296 vs. .317, with half the AB's, and no regular place in the lineup.
Like to see if the numbers would be same if roles were reversed.
I am not bashing AJ. I would love to see him return to his early 2010 form.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
.317 is likely Jackson's floor
Dirks will probably improve on his .296, but I don’t see him getting to .350+, which is probably Jackson’s ceiling. Dirks is probably a 4th outfielder at best. I don’t want to say that we’d be in trouble if he started the majority of games at LF next year, but it’s not a good sign.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hope you are right about the floor
because AJ is our leadoff hitter to start the season, according to the Skip.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think Jackson hits under .250 again
Even if he just maintains his walk rate (people overlook that it went up last year, if ever so slightly), his OBP will go up.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If he learns to lay off of the high heat,
which he doesn’t hit anyway, he will improve.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
Could do with a more compact swing, as well, but then
who am I to tell a professional baseball player how to hit?
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
My lineup
“Pretty hard to mess that one up” JL. “Um, ya just did Jimbo” Tigerdog1
Here’s my lineup
1) CF Jackson – I hate his strikeouts, but he is the only speedy guy on the team
2) C Avila – The only one on the team with a better OBP is Miggy
3) 3B Miggy – You know why
4) 1B Prince – Less contact than Miggy, but better power
5) RF Boesch – Decent lefty bat
6) SS Peralta – Better OBP and SLG than Delmon
7) DH Delmon – Could put up some great numbers next year
8) LF Raburn – I think he is far better in LF than Kelly/Dirks/Thomas
9) 2B Santiago – I really don’t like Kelly/Dirks/Thomas as everyday guys
Detroit Tigers: 2011 AL Central Champs
In 2013, just think of this lineup
1) CF Jackson
2) RF Boesch
3) 3B Cabrera
4) 1B Fielder
5) DH Martinez
6) SS Peralta
7) C Avila
8) LF Young
9) 2B Santiago
Fan of the Tigers ~ Lions ~ Red Wings! - Restoring Pride to Detroits Sports Teams
WIIM Mursak Leagues Wingedmule (97-90-38)) PoD Bench Leagues PackMules (7th)
Get better in 2012 Lions! - Thanks for a Great Season (10-7)
Except Young probably won't be here in 2013
I’d be willing to bet that the Tigers hold on to Raburn before they re-sign Young.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
If Young has a great year he’ll cost too much. If he has a poor year, we just won’t want him. He’s boned either way.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 26, 2012 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Add This guy in left....
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7977
Now do your line-ups. Talk about an up-side….McCutchen is one dynamic young player!
I will never pretend to know more than they do; except in Millen's case.
of course he's a great player, but
it’s hard to imagine a plausible scenario by which he becomes a Tiger
Yeah...
I doubt Fielder would ever sign here either….
I will never pretend to know more than they do; except in Millen's case.
Sure is, and I cannot imagine a scenario that puts him in Detroit.
Is he a free agent, or on the trading block?
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 8:48 PM EST reply actions
He's not even arb-eligible until after next season
He won’t be a free agent until 2016.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mr. I
is on a mission to win this thing. I believe a package could be put together to land him, and maybe even dump another salary or 2…Inge, Young….
I will never pretend to know more than they do; except in Millen's case.
OK
And let’s pencil Clayton Kershaw into the pitching rotation and figure out the order, while we are at it.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 9:04 PM EST reply actions
Oh come on...
You know it is easier to land a talented outfielder then it is to land a top notch pitcher. If you have pitching to offer, just about anything is possible. Just dreaming a little, nothing wrong with that…just like we dreamed about Cabrera and Fielder hitting 3-4.
But seriously if you want to pencil Kershaw in there…I’m down with that….
I will never pretend to know more than they do; except in Millen's case.
Well, I would be down with McCutcheon in LF,
but the Pirates, low budget as they are, are not stupid.
Inge is a good guy, but face it, a salary drag. Delmon has his merits but is probably not worth what he is being paid, because of his defensive limitations. If you are trying to build a team, do you trade a guy with the star potential of McCutcheon for that? Does Pirates management owe the Tigers something the rest of us are not aware of?
I am all for dreaming, though. Dream on.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
If winning now is the plan
We have some good young arms to dangle as bait, future be damned! I am wondering if that is the plan? I have a strong feeling they aren’t done and it will be fun to see what happens next if anything.
I agree with your thoughts on both Inge and Young. I don’t get all this “hatin” that happens when someone has a bad year or two. If they fail to produce, you deal with it and move on, but there is absolutely no reason to vilify good people for failure to produce. It really sours me on sports sometimes.
I will never pretend to know more than they do; except in Millen's case.
With you on that.
Hate is not a good thing.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
For sure!
I think Young and Raburn and Wilk should get it done!!! RIGHT??? #killme
(Un)Official President of the Team Jacob Turner Fan Club
Yet Another Movie Blog
by DetroitTigersGeek on Jan 27, 2012 12:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Leyland said that we won't have an everyday DH
That DH would be a revolving door. So like last season, I’m expecting many different line-ups based on who the opposing starting pitcher is. Leyland loves going by the splits and lifetime batter vs pitcher match ups.
He is going to have fun this year.
So are we. One of the many things I love about JL is that he likes to play the same games we fans do with lineups.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 9:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Clete?!
But he’s so baaaad at baseball! WHIIIIINE
by SweetLouDoubleU on Jan 26, 2012 9:11 PM EST reply actions
I really hope Clete won't crack the line-up
And hopefully he’s an injury replacement. Sorry, but he’s not a starter.
"I will play tomorrow unless I am dead when I wake up" - Victor Martinez
Jackson is not a leadoff hitter
LF – Dirks : Speed isn’t an issue when you only attempt 20 steals a year as a team
RF – Boesch
DH – Delmon
3B – Miggy
1B – Prince
SS – Jhonny
C – Avila
2B – Ramon / Inge
CF – Jackson
Let’s hope Victor comes back about halfway through the year and Leyland’s illegitimate son Raburn retires. :)
Dirks isn't a leadoff hitter either
lower OBP than Ajax last year… it’d be replacing a problem with another problem.
And Raburn, retire? really… I don’t get the Raburn hate. if he can put together a full season at the plate, he could be huge for this team hitting in the lower third of the lineup. sure, he’ll never win a gold glove but he can have a nice impact with the bat.
Did we really just sign Prince Fielder? Holllllllllly sh*t.
Raburn huge?
You can’t say Dirks is problem. He never got an opportunity to play everyday. He deserves a chance, Jackson ain’t doin’ it.
Raburn had a full season last year and it was the ugliest thing ever. Comerica booed him consistently. That’s bad. He had no right playing second last year or anywhere on the team. They sent Inge down to the minors for batting about 5 points lower than Raburn, and Inge could play the infield. Raburn is terrible and he cost us more games with his garbage bat and glove last year than he won us with a couple homers. Not to mention stealing the chance for Ramon to have a career year by playing a position he was horrible at. Raburn needs to play for the Mudhens.
lol okay man
can’t wait for him to prove everyone wrong. just watch.
and playin Dirks everyday isn’t gunna approve his ability to get on base…
Did we really just sign Prince Fielder? Holllllllllly sh*t.
I hope you're right
I’d love to see Raburn do well. He beat us up pretty good last year though, and I just don’t see him turning it around.
Andy Dirks just needs a chance, he’s a young player with something to prove and I think he can do well given the opportunity. He’s probably the second fastest guy on the team, too. That’s why I like him leading off. Let’s face it…Jackson broke us in the playoffs and he didn’t do any better for us in the season.
You're right, Andy Dirks is a young guy that should improve with more playing time
But I’ve got the inside scoop on this guy that is both younger and faster than Dirks, who is already a better defender. Scouts think his swing could use some work, but otherwise think he could be our centerfielder for the next decade or so.
But you’re right, Dirks should probably start over Austin Jackson.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 9:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Who in the Tigers' org fits that description?
Avisail?
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
We have seen AJ.
We love him in the outfield.
But we would love him more if he did not strike out so much.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
But saying that Dirks needs to play every day because he’s young and fast is redundant.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 10:02 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I do not really disagree with you,
and I think, whatever we say here, AJ will be the opening day leadoff hitter, but the 9 and 1 slots are probably both open in most lineups and hypothetically why not let Dirks give it a go at 1 on occasion? Especially if AJ does not start the season getting on base?
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
We've seen AJ leading off...
Not very impressive. Dirks at least deserves a chance, otherwise he might as well go somewhere else.
We're on the same page here
I’m not saying that Dirks doesn’t deserve a roster spot. I think he’s a perfect 4th outfielder because he does a number of things fairly well and has decent speed. I just don’t think he should be starting every day.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is going to be fun
You can’t say Dirks is problem. He never got an opportunity to play everyday. He deserves a chance, Jackson ain’t doin’ it.
Jackson outperformed Dirks last season. Yes, he got more playing time, but that’s because he’s better and younger. There is a reason that Dirks wasn’t an everyday player last year: he’s not an everyday player period.
Raburn had a full season last year and it was the ugliest thing ever.
You’re right, .197/.265/.283 is pretty horrible. Oh wait, that was Brandon Inge.
Comerica booed him consistently.
Just flat out wrong.
They sent Inge down to the minors for batting about 5 points lower than Raburn, and Inge could play the infield.
I almost want to give you credit for this, because at the end of May Inge was actually hitting better than Raburn. However, when Inge was sent down, he was hitting .177 while Raburn was starting to break out of his slumber at .214.
Raburn is terrible and he cost us more games with his garbage bat and glove last year than he won us with a couple homers.
Luckily for us, they give us a stat for stuff like this. Raburn was a 1.2 WAR player last year. While I’ll be the first to tell you that WAR isn’t perfect, it’s a decent estimate.
Not to mention stealing the chance for Ramon to have a career year by playing a position he was horrible at. Raburn needs to play for the Mudhens.
You’re right, Raburn shouldn’t play Ramon’s position. Raburn had a UZR of -21.0 at 2nd base in about 400 innings at 2B last season. However, he had a UZR of 16.1 in about 400 innings in the outfield.
While I agree that I don’t want Raburn at 2B, the senseless bashing of Raburn without even taking a peek at his stats is no way to claim that he deserves to be playing in Toledo next seasson.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Problem solved.
Put Raburn in LF, let Delmon DH, and use Dirks as a backup for Raburn and occasionally for AJ. Why didn’t we think of this sooner?
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
BOOM
knuckles and I for honorary 2012 lineup card runners. You bring the pencils, I’ll buy the erasers.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'd do that
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 26, 2012 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
Who are you gonna take out of the lineup for him then?
Saying Jackson is better is an opinion, because you have no basis for comparison.
Comerica did boo him consistently. If you don’t know that then you didn’t go to many games.
5 points lower was figurative speech, I’m not copy and pasting stats.
WAR is a joke.
Ramon should have played 2B all year, but who do you sit for Raburn in the outfield.
Exactly
Delmon DH’s, Raburn in LF, Jackson in CF, Dirks as a 4th OF where he belongs.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 10:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Would you leadoff Jackson?
I’d give Raburn a shot, but not for a half year slump. Dirks isn’t bad…I’m tellin’ ya.
AJ will lead off at the start of the season.
The rest is fun speculation. There are other terms for it, also.
I still say, if that does not work out the likeliest result is a trade in July. Not trading AJ, just picking up a leadoff hitter who can play LF 2B, or possibly 3B.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, I would hit Jackson first
It’s his job to lose. 2012 is a new season. If he doesn’t perform, then give someone else the spot. Jackson can be a catalyst for this offense though. When he plays well, this team is damn near impossible to beat.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dirks has the skillset of a fourth outfielder
I love the guy- but he’s not a starter.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 26, 2012 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
The guy had a miserable season last year
But he’s only a year removed from hitting .280/.340/.474. And even last year he still had value (a decent slugging percentage).
A hell of a lot better option than Dirks is, in other words.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 27, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
And this year Delmon does not have to sit, just DH.
Next year he is playing for the Nats.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
How is saying "Jackson is better" an opinion?
Their averages were within a couple points of each other and Jackson’s OBP was roughly .020 higher. Dirks’ slugging percentage was higher, but do you really need slugging from a leadoff hitter? And don’t even get me started on defense.
You’re right, I didn’t go to many games last season. Of course, living 500 miles away is kind of a barrier to that. And “Comerica booing him” is not the same as half a dozen uninformed individuals who have had a few too many beers beforehand.
If you’re not going to copy and paste stats, you won’t last long here. And bash WAR if you want to, I’m pretty indifferent about it. I was just trying to quantify how many games Raburn has won and lost for the team. If you think of a better way, I’d be glad to hear it.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Replace Raburn With Dirks Leave Jackson Where He Is
Just face it, Raburn is no good. Dirks will be an all around good ball player. Wait & see…….
by TigersFan1957 on Jan 26, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
Despite Raburn not having a great 2011
His OBP, slugging, and OPS were all higher than Dirks.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
if his OBP and SLG were higher
it would be damn near impossible for the sum of those two to be lower…
Other than that carry on.
It looks more impressive if you have all three though
And there was nothing incorrect about my statement.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 27, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Jackson 153 games...Dirks 73 games
Jackson – 181 strikeouts 519 at bats = 30% strike out rate
XBH – 43
BA – .249
OBP – .317
SLG – .374
Dirks – 36 strikeouts 219 at bats = 16% strikeout rate
XBH- 20 (w/ 300 less at bats)
BA .251
OBP – .296
SLG – .406
There’s offense, now lets get you started on defense
Jackson – 1264 inning
E -3
FP – .992
Dirks – 492 innings
E -2
FP -.985
Not seeing your argument… and I’ll tell you from experience Raburn got booed by the entire place consistently…not just a few drunks.
by Bone7958 on Jan 26, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
OK, did the stats thing. Way to go.
It is a legitimate argument. I like a lineup with both guys playing, and with Delmon at DH. As of now, it is basically a coin flip for who should lead off and who should hit 9th, but I would be shocked if AJ doest not start the season leading off.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
Me too...
I wish Leyland would wake up though. You just can’t have your leadoff guy strike out that much…don’t make sense.
For what it is worth,
I think JL seriously believes AJ can cut down on the strikeouts and increase his on-base percentage. Based on his debut numbers, that is not an irrational thought. I also think the Skip is more patient (read that as a synonym for more stubborn, less fickle) than we fans are. For now, I will live with that.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
The average, OBP, and slugging were the exact same stats I alluded to
Not sure what your point is with those. Dirks had a better slugging percentage, but Jackson’s OBP was higher. For a lineup spot that is supposed to score runs, I’ll take the OBP.
And the defense? One more error in almost 700 more innings for Jackson. He probably had more highlight reel plays than Dirks had total put-outs.
Whatever, Raburn got booed. Doesn’t mean it was deserved.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 10:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep, because .256/.297/.432 is stinking up the joint
Sure, he stinks defensively, but he’s been an elite bat by his second half stats for 3 years, and overall he’s been an average outfielder. Boo him all you want, doesn’t affect his results.
Here's a fun little game
In 2009, Player A had a slash line of .291/.359/.533. He hit a home run in 5.49% of his total at bats and had an OPS+ of 130.
Also in 2009, Player B had a slash line of .324/.396/.547. He hit a home run in 5.56% of his total at bats and had an OPS+ of 144.
My only hint for you is that both of these players should be starting for the Tigers in 2012. Any guesses?
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
A = Raburn; B = Cabrera
The “elite bat” comment isn’t as far-fetched as you think it is.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Elite??? Really???
He cost us games (several) with his glove and with the lack of his bat as well. He lost us more games than his bat won us.
Elite bat. Never said a word about his glove.
But really, when did he make bad defensive plays in the outfield in the second half? Don’t argue with stats. If .341/.393/.574 doesn’t look elite to you, let me know what your definition of an elite bat is. Yes, that’s a selective sample. Yes, he’s by most regards an average defender in the outfield and horrible in the infield. But you cannot argue that he wasn’t an elite bat in the second half last year.
According to www.beisboldata.com, Andy Dirks is hitting .340/.426/.453 which is fueled in part by a .450 BABIP. AD is among the league leaders in both runs and RBIs.
by TigersFan1957 on Jan 26, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
The stats are nice
But when guys like Julio Lugo and Alexi Casilla have higher OPS stats than Dirks, you get an idea of the quality of the competition.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm Sure Raburn Would Be Better
I’m moving on on this subject. Let see how things play out in spring training. To tell you the truth, I think there may still be a trade made & Dirks could be included in the trade. He has more value to other teams than Raburn anyway.
by TigersFan1957 on Jan 26, 2012 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
Raburn was the best hitting 2B during the 2nd half of last season
I just love how smooth and easy his swing was from August through October.
projections for next year
.264/.324/.457
18 HR, 64 rbi’s. I think those numbers are well within reach, if not even better. I’ll take that out of an 8-9 hitter in the lineup any day.
Did we really just sign Prince Fielder? Holllllllllly sh*t.
Not sure what your beef with Raburn is...
I mean we all get annoyed by him, but he had a great second half =\
President of the Tony Scheffler Fan Club
I wouldn't use the word "great"...
He had a couple of good games toward the end of the year, but that doesn’t even come close to the amount of games he cost us during the season with a 200 batting average and terrible defense. Ramon should have played second because he was better… batting and fielding… and Leyland didn’t give him the time of day even while Raburn was costing us games.
August and September
Raburn’s slash line: .349/.393/.587 with 5 HRs and 17 RBIs in 118 plate appearances.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Let Look At Raburn's Post Season
Vs. Yankee’s
At Bats=5
Hits=2
BB=0
RBI=1
Runs=0
K=3 (5 At Bats, 2 Hits, & 3 Strike Outs)
Avg.=.400
Vs. Texas
AB=23
H=6
BB=4
RBI=4
Runs=4
K=4 (23 At bats, 6 Hits, & 4 Strike Outs..Strikes Out Almost As Often As He Gets A Hit)
Avg=.261 (Not Very Good)
by TigersFan1957 on Jan 26, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
There's more
.261 AVG (Not Very Good)
.370 OBP (Pretty Good)
.565 SLG ( Excellent)
.936 OPS (Excellent)
by Keith-Allen on Jan 26, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
with a BABIP of .235
indicating that these numbers could be even higher.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Granted it's the post-season
So there’s issues with sample size and K/BB rates not being normalized.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 27, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
That was my point in general
I just ran with this because I was bored.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 27, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Understandable
I do that too.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 27, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
How Do You Calculate Slugging?
I know he hit a 3 run HR for 3 of his 4 RBI’s, is that good too?
by TigersFan1957 on Jan 26, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions
Now you want to get into how skewed sample sizes can be with one play?
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
One Hit Scores Most Of His RBI's
So his production is almost all in one game. I have been looking over his & Dirks numbers from last season & they are real close.
Runs/Games – Raburn=53/121=.44, Dirks=34/78=.44
Home Runs/At Bats – Raburn=14/387=.036, Dirks=7/219=.032
Strike Outs/At Bats – Raburn=114/387=.295, Dirks=36/219=.164
Base On Balls/Plate Apperances – Raburn=21/418=.050, Dirks=11/235=.047
Batting Average – Raburn=.256, Dirks=.251
They look pretty simular to me averaged out. And Dirks plays his position better, runs the bases better, and is 5 years younger than Raburn. In my opinion, Dirks will have a much better career than Raburn.
by TigersFan1957 on Jan 26, 2012 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
I Just Noticed
The Runs/Games is not going to be accurate for Dirks. He was put into games as late inning defensive replacement and did not bat or run the bases. Those would have to be taken out of the Equation to come up with an accurate average. Not sure if Raburn went into any games as a defensive replacement.
by TigersFan1957 on Jan 27, 2012 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
If terrible is slang for spectacular, then yes he was very terrible.
In the 2nd half, he had
.341 AVG
.393 OBP
.574 SLG
.967 OPS
That was the best in the business.
How was his play in the field?
He ended the season batting 256 and under 300 obp. He had no business at 2B.
He was horrid at 2nd base
But well above average in the outfield. DH Delmon, give Raburn LF, play Ramon at 2nd. Simple.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 9:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Above average?
Loved watching a pop fly bounce out of his glove into the bullpen for a homer almost as much as I loved seeing one bounce off Canseco’s head for a homer.
I hated that play as much as anyone else
But (a) Delmon doesn’t even get to that ball, and (b) the rest of his season in the OF was actually pretty good by comparison. He has decent range, a great arm, and other than a few boneheaded mistakes, is pretty solid in the OF.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's a video of Delmon Young trying to catch that ball
by Keith-Allen on Jan 26, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
I can't stop laughing when
Delmon gets fully strapped down into stretcher and gets wheeled away in a golf cart ambulance
by Keith-Allen on Jan 26, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
The attempt was comical
Ambulances, even when the injury isn’t endangering, aren’t.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 10:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It just reminded me of something from the WWE
With all the fake wrestling injuries. They done everything but put a neckbrace on him.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 26, 2012 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
So he ended up with better numbers than Dirks
How can you justify Dirks leading off, when he had worse numbers than the “Terrible” Raburn?
Inge filling in at 2b?
Now there’s a thought.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
Whoops.
See below again, and not Duane, much as I admire the guy.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
worth over clete
i would rather see worth on the roster than clete, he could be a defensive replacement for raburn late innings, seems like it adds more flexibilty
It mostly depends on where Raburn plays
If he’s at 2B, then I’d probably say no. Ramon or Don Kelly can be the late-inning defensive replacement. If Raburn is the left fielder, then I’d give Worth the nod (although it eliminates the need for him to be a defensive replacement for Raburn).
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 26, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Since we are solving all the Tigers' lineup issues, how about
Raburn and Dirks platooning in LF, with Delmon the regular DH? Works for me.
The only thing that concerns me is Miggy rotating among 3B (most of the time), DH and 1B. That would be a challenge for any player used to playing regularly at one position.
(Not a problem for Donny (Mr. 9 positions and them some) Kelly.
by knucklescarbone on Jan 26, 2012 10:39 PM EST reply actions
Better lineup
I would like to see J. Damon batting second as D.H. and I can’t see anynone but Boesch batting third.
Line em Up Smokey!
1 Boesch RF
2 Avila C
3 Cabrera 3B
4 Fielder 1B
5 Young DH
6 Peralta SS
7 Santiago 2B
8 Raburn LF
9 Jackson CF
"It's my first big league win and you can't beat that. I'm kind of elated to tell you the truth. I wanted to continue the streak of our starting pitchers. That's 5-for-5 right there." Justin Verlander
Avila Batting Leadoff
I see why people think of this, seeing his solid on base percentage, but part of the reason for bringing in Laird is to get more rest for Avila. Do we really want our lead off guy to be someone who needs an off day more often? How would the extra at bats effect his stamina down the stretch? These are the worries that make me shy away from moving Avila that far up in the order. I do think he is capable, even with his lack of speed.
Some thoughts
One concern: I’m not at all convinced that Peralta and Avilla will do that well. They may have had career years last year.
OTOH, I suspect Jackson will improve as he had an anti-career year last year.
One final major concern: Cabrera scares me at 3rd base. One dive for a ball and he can get hurt badly. Also, when you add Rayburn at 2nd base you might have one of the worst fielding infields with no range in all of baseball. That’s not good. I’d prefer to see Cabrera at first (I actually think he is a decent fielder there) and Fielder as DH (would he even accept such a role on a quasi permanent basis)?
Any thoughts?
Mel
How is fielding a ground ball at 3B any different than 1B?
Only difference is that he’ll have to throw the ball 90+ feet. He’s still the same player. The ball is still round. 3B is a mirror image of 1B.
If anything, 1B is involved in more plays where the body is at risk. Scooping balls out of the dirt, stretching for bad throws, trying not to get run over by the baserunner running at full speed down the 1b line.
I’ve been wanting Cabrera to move back to 3rd for awhile now. I think we got the kind of pitching staff, that could use a better offense more effectively than a better defense. When Verlander is pitching, we could have 5 of our infielders sitting in lawn chairs during the game and it wouldn’t make much of a difference. Just need a Pitcher, Catcher, SS, and CF like “The King and his Court” softball team.
More range required at 3B
Versus at 1B, where the second baseman is responsible for a bit more ground.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 27, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
2 lineups
VS Lefties
1 .AJAX CF
2.Raburn 2B
3.Cabrera DH
4. Fielder 1B
5. Young LF
6. Avila C
7. Boesh RF
8. Inge 3B
9. Santiago SS
VS Righties
1. AJAX CF
2. Avila C
3. Cabrera 3B
4. Fielder 1B
5. Young LF
6. Peralta SS
7. Boesch RF
8. Raburn DH
9. Santiago 2B
Based mostly on splits and with the idea that Laird gets some days for Avila, especially against rights and against righties you see Avila gets lots of DH duty, cause lets face it the Tigers splits are far better against lefties than righties. Dirks/Kelly are defensive replacements in the OF, coming in for Young/Raburn.
HERE'S MY LINE UP
C Dr. Peter Venkman
1b The Kodan Armada
2b Old Yeller (pre-rabies)
SS That Darned Cat (remake)
3b Sven from the Voltron Force
RF Magnum P. I.
CF Dr. Egon Spengler
LF Dr. Raymond Stantz
DH Unicron
by 13194013 on Jan 27, 2012 12:09 AM EST via Android app reply actions 4 recs
I give it a month before you guys realize putting Cabrera at 3rd is a bad idea.
Then you realize that I’d be a helluva idea to go and get Chase Headley from San Diego. He plays outstanding defense and own a .303/.364/.441 trip slash line away from Petco. I’m not going to mention who you had last year, but I’m guessing he wasn’t that good. I’d cost Turner at a minimum…Not a lot else to get excited about in your farm after Castellanos…Hmmm…Not sure if deal here, post anyway.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
Wouldn't a Tigers should trade for a Padres guy with their top chips rosterbation tangent be better served on a Padres board?
Instead of – this is who we have (as a Tigers team) how are Leyland going to make his roster thread?
It would if i wanted some self serving tripe.
I want to see if there is some traction with the other team. Maybe there’s something there, maybe not. What else you got to do? Pitchers and catchers don’t report for another 4 weeks at least.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
Wouldn't it make more sense...
…to put Cabrera in the 2 slot and Fielder in the 3? Jackson would see nothing but good pitches. Delmon, Boesch, Peralta and Avila go 4-7.
Wouldn’t the extra ABs be better for Cabrera and Fielder? Or am I missing something here?
The hope is to have two men on base for Miguel at first.
And having Fielder behind him means possibly 3 for Prince.
Outside The Box
My outside the box lineup would have Jackson batting 9th, with Delmon leading off, Prince 2, Miggy 3, Avila 4 and Peralta 5. I’m with you on this, but in a different way. Won’t happen, but it would certainly help an old fart look innovative.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 27, 2012 9:07 AM EST up reply actions
EVERYBODY ROSTERBATE IN UNISON!
"I believe in a good kick in the ass. This— I believe. " -- Walker Percy
I tweet about stuff sometimes @jackhitts.
by jhitts08 on Jan 27, 2012 3:52 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Figgins?
Would you hate it if the Tigers acquired Figgins for some single A prospect, with the Mariners covering 1/3 of his salary?
If he bounces back, you get a good defensive IF with a .350-ish OBP, that can spike as high as .390 with extreme BABIP luck.
Most arguments are really about context.
by SheaWasBettor21 on Jan 27, 2012 6:11 AM EST reply actions
YES we'd mind
Figgins is garbage.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 27, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Figgins chances of recovery just don't look good.
Plus his contract just adds even more money to the payroll (even if the M’s ate part of it).
I'll Say It
I think they should resign Maggs and put him in LF. He can still play a respectable OF and would be better than any of the alternatives like Raburn, Dirks, or Young. Pretty sure Maggs can be had cheap. I know this doesn’t help the leadoff spot but we can only hope that AJ has a better year. So:
Jackson CF
Boesch RF
Cabrera 3B
Fielder 1B
Young DH
Avila C
Peralta SS
Ordonez LF
Santiago 2B
I'd rather have Ordonez on the roster than Clete Thomas
So that’s a good idea you have there.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 27, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Magglio is not an upgrade over Raburn in LF
At least not in 2012. No range, and Raburn’s a better hitter now.
Maggs is 38 years old with multiple knee and ankle surgeries. We don’t even know if he’s capable of playing any more, he hasn’t passed a physical for anybody since his season-ending ankle re-fracture last year.
Don’t get me wrong. I love Maggs, and he’ll always be My Tiger to a certain degree…but I think his time is up.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
There's 25 roster spots
Magglio would just need to be more valuable than Don Kelly, Brandon Inge, or Clete Thomas.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 27, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
If the Tigers make it to the playoffs and goto the world series
It sure would be nice to bring Magglio along for the ride. He could pinch hit, DH, and occasional start in RF or LF. Not a starting job. That’s all I’m thinking about. But only if he’d take a G$ type contract for $1 Milllion or so.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 27, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
If he's healthy, why not?
But again, we don’t even know if he’s physically capable of playing baseball right now. According to Morosi, he won’t be cleared by his doctors for full activity for two more weeks and won’t be able to play all-out in spring training.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
No he wouldn't
All three are valuable defenders.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 27, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Thomas
Unless something comes totally out of LF (scuse the pun) I don’t see Thomas on the 25 man roster. Don’t take that wrong I think he could be better than Inge or Raburn. I really don’t believe the team will do anything as far as position players are concerned. Getting Maggs is pie in the sky. Would be nice but doubtful. If any more moves are made I think it will be a 5th starter. That being said if you would have told me Fielder was coming to Detroit I would have said BS. Shows you how much I know. The only thing I am sure of is that Mr I wants to win now.
How would you go about utilizing all 3?
That being Kelly, Inge, and Thomas. To me it seems that their defensive value would be overly redundant.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 27, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
Trade Inge
:)
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 27, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Not pulling players out of my A** from dream world
Jackson CF
Boesch RF
Cabrera 3B
Fielder 1B
Young DH
Avila C
Peralta SS
Raburn 2B
Dirks/Thomas LF
On Porcello/Fister days:
8. Raburn LF
9. Santiago 2B
However, as alluded to earlier, there’s going to be a ton of movement from game-to-game. Consider:
I think you can rotate Miggy between 3B (67%), DH (16%) 1B (16%)
I think you can rotate Fielder between 1B (84%) DH (16%)
I think Young can DH (55%) LF (33%)
I think Raburn can LF (50%) 2B (50%)
I think Dirks/Thomas LF (16%)
I think Santiago 2B (50%)
I think Kelly/Inge 3B (33%)
I think Avila C (75%) DH (12%) Rest (12%)
Laird C (25%)
So while the two line-ups above are what I would expect the most, I doubt that either of those line-ups is penciled in (combined) more than 50% of the year, and there will be a whole lot of ‘WTF 7. Dirks 8. Laird 9. Santiago’ talk for Sunday games.
I still think we’re set up very nicely for ‘12 (and crazy good for ’’13 when Martinez replaces Young)
Baseball is like a poker game, nobody wants to quit when he's losing: nobody wants you to quit when you're ahead. ~Jackie Robinson
by LittleLeagueTiger on Jan 27, 2012 10:05 AM EST reply actions 6 recs
Good idea in using Avila at DH more.
I like the perspective that VMart will just be replacing Delmon Young also. It’s don’t agree with those that think that we have to trade VMart now.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 27, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
Rec'd
Very good look at things.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 27, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
A mixture of what he WILL do and what he SHOULD do.
1. Jackson — CF — Jim’s not going to do anything else, is he?
2. Boesch — RF — Being able to go lefty-righty in this lineup is huge. Either Boesch or Avila here.
3. Cabrera — 3B — Gotta hope he can field reasonably well enough to stick at 3B.
4. Prince — 1B — Considered slotting him ninth and asking him to bunt.
5. Peralta — SS — Anyone but Delmon, really.
6. Avila — C — Again, him or Boesch.
7. Raburn — LF — This is the year he starts off well, I swear.
8. Delmon — DH — The question is what’s worse: Delmon’s glove plus Inge/Kelly’s bat, or Cabby’s glove.
9. Santiago — 2B — I like the idea of Santiago getting the bulk of the PT. Love to see Inge try some reps vs. LHP.
I think the pages of this thread are sticking together
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
by johnmoz on Jan 27, 2012 11:12 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
How about a SS???
(copied from another BYB post)
Why not really go for it and shake up the roster (defensively)…
- Slide Perralta to 2B…good hands – range not good
Not worried about upsetting him…Cabrera moved.
- Get SS w/better range / speed…Trade Raburn or Young (remaining one DH’s)
Helps Cabrera at 3B and takes RR or DY off the field.
- 3B:
Cabrera v RH’s and Interleague
Inge v LH’s (Cabrera at 1B and Fielder at DH)
Inge as late inning defense replacement w/lead
Wait til the deadline for 5th Starter…if Turner/Smyly/Crosby/Etc are not ready.
Inge to Short
Cabrera and Peralta on the left side of the infield will leave some holes. Move Inge to short and Peralta to second. Inge has the range to cover the hole better than Peralta.
If the 'solution' is Inge at short?
Might as well put Iorg there. Younger, better glove, and would hit what Inge will.
Does sliding Iorg into the SS spot and Peralta to 2B sound silly?
No more silly than sliding Inge over to SS.
With Santiago available for many starts at 2B and finishing his fair share of games, the Tigers “up-the-middle” defense is actually pretty good. Avila/Peralta/Santiago/AJax are all nice options with the glove.
If your parents didn't have any children, chances are you won't either
by Singledigit on Jan 27, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Can Don Kelly play an adequate middle infield?
Because you can slide Santi over to SS and Kelly to 2B when you need defense.
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 27, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Solution at SS is NOT Inge...
Trying to minimize Inge…only play 3B v LHP’s and late inning defense.
Purpose of moving Perralta to 2B is to eliminate Raburn and increase range at SS.
The hole between 3B and SS will not be covered well with Cabrera / Perralta.
Santiago should be a super-sub…and only starting against LHP’s.
Eliminate a bat for better defense…too many DH’s to juggle DY/RR/Miggy/Prince/Victor
Love to move Raburn for defensive SS or another relief pitcher
I really don't get the Raburn hate
You can’t have nine gold-glove all-stars in your daily line-up (unless you’re the Yankees…). We now have studs at 1B & 3B. We have the best young Catcher in the game. Peralta is a good (and last year, great) SS. We have a defensive minded CF (which is important in Comerica), and a good young RF (though how durable) in Boesch. That is a great nucleus. That’s as good as we can hope for in a market not NY or Boston or LA.
You have to be willing to take a little less in the remaining spots. Raburn is a little less, but man can he rake when he’s going good. Is he perfect? no. Do his bad plays in the field look worse than anyone else’s? yes, they’re laughably terrible. But his 2nd half clips are down right awesome, and that’s enough to ensure he gets run out there almost every day.
And for G-d’s sake, if you think he’s horrible, how the eff are you going to trade him for anything valuable in return?!?!?! This isn’t fantasy baseball where you can rob some other owner who’s not paying attention. So quit bashing the guy in sentence 1 and telling us the great player you’re going to get in sentence 2 for him.
Look, we have an owner who continually spends more than he should (given the market he’s in), we have a team that has a great nucleus and very good outer elements (with a few warts, sure), oh and we have now THREE top 5 MVP candidates on our team.
We’re blessed, in short.
I get that rosterbation leads to crazy trade ideas and what-ifs, but put yourself in Skipper’s shoes: he doesn’t make trades, he takes the 25 men given to him and fills out a line-up card. Do that here.
And for F*ck’s sake, why are we always trying to move Peralta? Let the man play SS.
/rant
Baseball is like a poker game, nobody wants to quit when he's losing: nobody wants you to quit when you're ahead. ~Jackie Robinson
by LittleLeagueTiger on Jan 27, 2012 1:55 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Raburn's only value is his Bat
Not sure if I qualify as a Raburn basher…but I would trade his inconsistent bat for better defense.
This team has plenty of offense and would benefit from a little more defense / speed / pitching.
Raburn or Young for a defensive infielder or reliever is not fantasy and would help free up DH.
Perralta was very efficient last year but a shortstop with more range would be more effective.
Okay, who went through this thread and turned all of Rob's comments green?
Probably just two chicks that think he’s handsome.
"King of Minutiae"
As long as they aren't Brandon Inge fangirls
I’m fine with it.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 28, 2012 8:21 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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