Jacob Turner, Drew Smyly among candidates to fill out Tigers' rotation
After the signing of Prince Fielder to a nine year, $214 million contract, it would appear that the Tigers have completed construction of their 2012 lineup (Yoenis Cespedes notwithstanding). One key spot on the roster, however, remains open for discussion, and possibly open for the addition of a veteran free agent, and that would be the fifth and final spot in the starting rotation.
The open spot was last occupied by Brad Penny, who is now a free agent, and who is reportedly exploring an opportunity in Japan. Penny went 11- 11 for the Tigers in 2011 despite posting the highest ERA and the highest WHIP in the league among all starting pitchers that qualified for the ERA title. Rather than filling the void with a player who provides that level of performance, one would expect the Tigers to have some of the prospects in their own organization audition for the job in spring training.
Following is a look at the candidates who are in the Tigers organization who might earn a job in the rotation in Detroit:
Jacob Turner: The 20-year-old right handed pitcher is the top prospect in the Tigers organization. On MLB.com's list of the top 100 prospects, Turner was rated the seventh-best pitcher and the 15th overall prospect by Jonathan Mayo. Turner is the lone righty among a bunch of lefty prospects who will audition.
Turner features a mid-90s fastball that’s pretty consistently well located in the strike zone. His change-up and curve have been improving, but are thought by some to be not quite there yet. The Tigers could put Turner in the rotation just for being the most talented candidate, but I would rather see him promoted when he is ready, rather then when there is an opening. It’s very likely we’ll see Turner in Detroit again this summer.
Duane Below: The 26-year-old lefty and native of Britton, Mich., split time last year between Detroit and Toledo. As a starter with the Triple-A Mud Hens, Below posted a 9-4 record with a 3.13 ERA and a solid 1.18 WHIP. He has good control and was given both starting and relief assignments when called up to Detroit last season.
In two starts and a dozen relief appearances with the Tigers, Below posted a 4.34 ERA with a 1.35 WHIP in 29 innings of work. Below could also be a candidate for the long relief job, which is a logical spot for a lefty, with at least four right-handers slated to be in the rotation and opposing managers likely to stack their lineups with left-handed batters.
Adam Wilk: Another lefty starter, age 24, who is known more for his excellent command than he is for striking batters out. Wilk has a lower "ceiling" than most of the top prospects in the organization, but he has the command and good enough stuff right now to pitch in the majors either at the back of the rotation or in long relief.
Wilk made 18 starts with Toledo in 2011, posting a 3.24 ERA and a nice 1.16 WHIP, while walking just 1.2 batters per nine innings. In Detroit, he got 13 innings of work, all in relief, and a pair of home runs got him sent back down.
Drew Smyly: Named the Tigers minor league organization's pitcher of the year and recently named to MLB.com’s top 100 prospects, coming in at No. 82. Smyly is another lefty that has a full repertoire that features a fastball, cutter, curve and changeup -- all of which are at least Major League average according to MLB.com's David Mayo.
Smyly was the Tigers’ second-round pick in the 2010 draft and is a bit more advanced at age 22 than others, having been drafted out of college. Smyly made 14 starts in Advanced-A Lakeland last year, putting up an impressive 2.58 ERA, 1.14 WHIP, and 8.6 K/9. He was then promoted to Double-A Erie, where he posted an even more impressive line of 1.18 ERA, 1.02 WHIP, and 10.4 K/9 in seven starts. Smyly is rising quickly and is not on the 40-man roster yet, but has been invited to Lakeland because of his impressive work. He is definitely one to watch this spring.
Andrew Oliver: Yet another lefty starter, age 24, with whom Tiger fans are familiar because of his work with the Tigers over the past two seasons. Oliver was a second-round pick in the 2009 draft. He is a hard thrower with a fastball in the the mid-90s and some nasty breaking stuff that is effective when he can locate his pitches. Therein lies the problem.
Oliver’s time in the major leagues did not go well. He posted an ERA of 7.11 over two seasons, a 2011 walk rate of 7.4 per nine innings. He was clearly quite nervous when things weren’t going well and was sent back to Toledo, where things didn’t seem to improve much. He has good stuff and velocity, which is very valuable especially for a lefty, but he’s going to have to start finding the plate, or he will probably find himself in the bullpen pretty soon.
Casey Crosby: Another lefty and another second round draft pick, Crosby’s biggest challenge has been staying healthy. He missed almost the entire 2010 season following Tommy John surgery, but rebounded nicely in 2011with Erie. Crosby made 25 starts with an ERA of 4.10 in a hitter’s league, but the encouraging news is that his K/9 rate was back up to a respectable 8.3.
In 2012, the Tigers probably want to see Crosby improve his command and control and staying healthy. He had 5.3 BB/9 innings last year. He is more likely a candidate for a mid season call up than a spot on the opening day roster, but he should be on the radar if things go well for him. He was added to the 40-man roster in November.
David Pauley: The "other" pitcher who was obtained along with Doug Fister from Seattle last July is on this list because he split time between the rotation and the bullpen in Seattle. He was more effective in relief before the Tigers got him and that’s probably where he will stay. Pauley is a 28-year-old righty who made 14 appearances for the Tigers in 2011, and would be a long-shot candidate to be moved back to the rotation.
With Seattle, Pauley made 15 starts in 2010, posting an ERA of 4.10 and a WHIP of 1.31. In 2011, he was moved to the bullpen, where he made 39 relief appearances, 54 innings, putting up a 2.15 ERA and an impressive 0.94 WHIP. In Detroit, Pauley gave up four killer home runs in his 14 appearances, which came mostly during games with lopsided scores, and this inflated his numbers. Pauley should make the team, but more likely in the bullpen than the rotation.
In an interview with SiriusXM radio, Tigers CEO and GM Dave Dombrowski was asked what alternatives the Tigers had if Turner were not given the fifth spot in the starting rotation. Dombrowski specifically mentioned Wilk, Below, and Smyly, as well as the possibility of signing a non-roster invitee. The typical NRI contract is a minor league deal with incentives should the player be added to the major league roster.
Jon Heyman of CBS sports reported that the Tigers made an offer to Roy Oswalt of $10 million for one season, but Oswalt turned it down. The Cardinals are now denying a rumor that they have signed Oswalt. In any case, Dombrowski has said that it’s unlikely the Tigers would sign Oswalt.
For what it’s worth, I will now post the list of free agent starting pitchers that are still unsigned. The only thing that this list really shows is that, other than Oswalt or Edwin Jackson, there’s not much to get excited about. I would rather give the guys named above an opportunity to show us what they can do. Now, if Dombrowski could swing a trade for, say, James Shields ... OK back to reality:
Kyle Davies, Doug Davis, Jon Garland, Rich Harden, Livan Hernandez, Edwin Jackson, Scott Kazmir, Ross Ohlendorf, Roy Oswalt, Brad Penny, Javier Vazquez (retiring), Brandon Webb, Chris Young, Tim Wakefield. There. See what I mean? Bring on the kids!
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nice work TD
I didn’t realize Pauley was ever in the rotation for Seattle. And wow, hard to believe Oliver is only 24… feel like we’ve been waiting on him forever.
I’d really like to see us bring Edwin back on a 1 year deal, but I doubt that will happen. If the Cards do sign Oswalt, I think another intriguing option that might be cheap to acquire would be Kyle McCllelan. Not the flashiest guy but he could eat some innings for us in that 5th spot.
Did we really just sign Prince Fielder? Holllllllllly sh*t.
We Just Need A Fifth Starter
I think there is a temptation to say, “We only need a fifth starter, so let’s get a journeyman to do the work. Who cares if he isn’t any good.” i.e. Brad Penny. Because I live in Minnesota, I only get to see a handful of games a year and usually against the Twins. I saw Penny twice last year and Furbush once. In a year that saw some awesome pitching, I got screwed. I would rather see us give a shot to some of our younger pitchers than sign a “journeyman” on a one year deal.
Because of their experience, Wilk and Below would be my first choices. Remember that Brad Penny won 11 games last year with some of the worst pitching in baseball. The Tigers just need a serviceable pitcher who can pitch 6-7 innings while giving his team a chance to win. The upside on these younger players is much higher than our other options excluding the Oswalts and Jacksons. I think the Tigers should go into spring training with this intention and see what we get. The results can’t be worse than Penny, but could be could be much higher. Besides, it is more palatable to watch a young pitcher struggle than watch one you know and expected to suck, suck.
Saw the same games
I live in Minnesota also. I had the “pleasure” of attending 2 Bad Brad starts at Target Field because they happened to be weekend games. Not only was he terrible – he works slow as molasses. I agree with your line of thinking – see what the kids can bring to the table.
Angel Stadium
My Furbush game was my first Tigers game in California on July 4th. That was a little depressing too.
by ottisfranklin on Jan 30, 2012 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
Guthrey
I was wondering if a trade to aquire Guthrey from Baltimore might be an option. Don’t think he would break the bank for prospects and he could eat up innings as a 5th starter.
Could be expensive
I was intrigued by Guthrie when his name came up prior to the trade deadline last season, but I see that he filed for $10.25 million for his last year of arbitration. If he wins his case he would be an extremely expensive 5th starter.
Haha. Pauley...
totally forgot about you…
(Un)Official President of the Team Jacob Turner Fan Club
Yet Another Movie Blog
by DetroitTigersGeek on Jan 30, 2012 9:09 AM EST reply actions
All I want
Is for us not to pull a Porcello and rush a kid up to the bigs before he’s ready. I think we could probably do a lot worse than Below as our 5th starter and Wilk in the long relief spot in 2012.
One of the interesting things is that if Turner and Smyly both turn into legitimate mid-to-upper rotation starters, we may have a bit of a logjam. We’ve got three to four seasons left on all of our starters’ contracts:
Verlander: FA 2015
Fister: Arb 2013, FA 2016
Scherzer: Arb 2013, FA 2015
Porcello: Arb 2013, FA 2016
That would imply to me that one of the more expensive vets would become trade bait (seeya, Scott Boras client Max Scherzer) to make room for young, cost-controlled arms.
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
Porcello looked pretty good coming out of the bullpen in the playoffs
Might be overpriced. But if Turner and Smyly turn out, I’d be happy with Rick in the bullpen
by thesiberian on Jan 30, 2012 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Woah, partner
if Turner and Smyly both turn into legitimate mid-to-upper rotation starters
That’s a
and years away, most likely.
Don’t let this scenario keep you up at nights.
by Big Z in Orlando on Jan 30, 2012 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Yup
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 30, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, I know TINSTAAPP
But if they’re going to reach that level, we’ll know before 2015/16, so my original point still stands.
I’m not saying “shop Scherzer or Porcello because Turner/Smyly will be the real deal,” I’m saying “If Turner/Smyly turn out to be the real deal, then we’ll have more SPs under contract than we have spots in the rotation within the next three seasons.”
"Virtually all tactical ploys—the sacrifice bunt, the stolen base, the hit-and-run—operate on average to reduce run scoring." -- Eric Walker
I think Porcello needed learn to K batters before being brought up
Porcello would probably make a good case for himself as a #2 or 3 SP in the bigs if he could strike out a few more guys. His K% in the minors never really warranted the hype he got, nor the promotion. If he would have had a year or two more to develop some strikeout ability, I think he’d be a much better pro.
Turner is more advanced already than Porcello was. He’s had more success at higher levels and he’s already showing a significantly stronger K%. I’m not sure he’s 100% ready, but I think he’ll be better than Porcello.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Middle relief
If the Tigers target any pitching help, I’d much rather they pick up an arm for the bullpen then the rotation. Last year, anytime a starter had to come out before the 8th inning there was that question. Who could just fill the gap until Benoit.
Scherzer and Porcello in particular seem to have games where they are either on or off. With some solid middle inning relief, those off nights won’t be so hairy.
Solid middle relief pitching will also take pressure off whichever young gun fills that 5 spot in the rotation.
This is an interesting debate.
Some of the pundits are pointing to the Tiger bullpen as a weakness.
It started to get better when Coke went back to the pen. Then, Alburquerque was lost and neither Penny nor Schlereth stepped up their game. Figure on Valverde, Benoit, Coke, and Dotel being strong. Balester can work multiple innings and replace Perry, but they may want a lefty in that role with all the RHP’s in the rotation. The rest is up for grabs between Schlereth, Pauley, some of the kids, and some of the guys above that come up short.
"King of Minutiae"
Someone else in this thread suggested Ni as a starter
I’d like to see if he could stick in the bullpen now.
He can't be worse than Schlereth
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 30, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
Don't forget about Al Al in 2012
With Dotel, Coke, Pauley & Albuquerque in the fold for the whole season, i’m not quite so worried about middle relief. If Balester & Scherleth bring anything, then how can mid-relief be anything but a strength?
by MotorCityCat on Jan 30, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Alburquerque is out until at least the all star break
I think we have Joel Zumaya 2.0 on our hands…
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -Rogers Hornsby
by InLeylandWeTrust on Jan 30, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
totally agree
Last year during their run to the world series, didn’t it seem like the Rangers had a infinite bullpen? We pretty much have all the other parts now. The bullpen is much more of an issue than the starters. Our starters could be a strength of the team. Our bullpen has talent, especially in the 8th and 9th innings. But, the more the better, especially since you can’t just rely on a few people (Valverde, Benoit) to put up monster stats every year. Some guys might have an off year. Bullpen depth is a key to going all the way.
The Rangers made great use of their #5 starter
Ogando was great out of the pen. The Tigers #5 starter, well, he made the team in the playoffs.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
Whatever happened to Fu Te Ni?
I admit this is an uninformed question, since I haven’t bothered to look up his stats. But I know he’s down at Toledo and I remember him doing some good bullpen work when he first came in.
by GreatGooglyMoogly on Jan 30, 2012 10:34 AM EST reply actions
that i knew
but any reason he’s not being considered for the 5-spot? a very rudimentary analysis over lunch seemed to point to decent base stats with a slightly elevated WHIP over 100+ innings.
by GreatGooglyMoogly on Jan 30, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
^This
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 30, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
He's in the organization but didn't get an invite to spring training
which was a mild surprise. Only three NRI pitchers this year so far: Smyly, Chris Bootcheck, and Darin Downs. Maybe this Aussie kid gets an invite too.
"King of Minutiae"
whomever can pitch to contact to CF gets my vote
assuming there are no other Verlander-esque strikeout pitchers
Heh
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
by David Tokarz on Jan 30, 2012 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
What really are Tigers full time 5th starter stats?
I think that we all, including me, tend to look at Penny’s stats and accept the fact that a 5th pitcher who eats up innings and wins 11 can’t be all that bad. Or is he?
Assuming that Coke was our full time 5th until the experiment was over in late June and until that time Penny was Tigers 4th. Penny had a 5-6 record during the Coke experiment in which Coke was 1-7.
When the experiment was over and after many other spot starters Penny was relegated to 5th starter in July and posted a 6-5 record. Combined 5th regular starters last year posted a 7-12 record.
Can agree with TD that we can surely find someone in the organization to do better than this.
Relief Pitching Suffers
All starters don’t always have their best stuff. That is a foregone conclusion. But being able to still pitch on that day is important. Being lifted early from a game affects your chances to win, but it also puts undue strain on the pen. We need someone that can last past the third without all of his pitches working properly.
by ottisfranklin on Jan 30, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
I think we're being a bit mislead by the post itself
Penny went 11- 11 for the Tigers in 2011 despite posting the highest ERA and the highest WHIP in the league among all starting pitchers that qualified for the ERA title.
How many other teams’ 4th/5th starters qualified for the ERA title? Penny pitched over 180 innings last season and was still 4th on the team in innings pitched (not including Fister). While Penny wasn’t great, he did what he was signed to do, for the most part. The only other teams in the AL with four guys who pitched 180 or more innings were Texas and Tampa Bay, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that they, along with the Tigers, were three of the four teams to make the playoffs in the AL.
I think a lot of people were upset when the Tigers decided to go with both Penny and Coke in the rotation at the start of last season. Obviously, it didn’t work out, so DD went out and got Fister to fix the issue. We can’t judge Penny on whether he was the 4th or 5th starter at the time. Instead, look at him in terms of what we expected out of him at the start of the season. If you expected much better than 11-11 with a 5.30 ERA, then you were either drinking way too much Kool-Aid or hadn’t watched Penny pitch since 2007.
That being said, I’m in favor of letting the young guys battle it out for the 5th spot. Other than Oswalt and Kuroda, I haven’t been impressed with any of the free agent starters available.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 30, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But it's just so easy to hate Penny
My logic agrees with everything you said. But I just don’t like Penny. So with my mind, I will acknowledge a well-worded comment. But with my heart, I still think Penny sucked.
by ottisfranklin on Jan 30, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
this is well said
and I certainly agree with you… so I second that.
Did we really just sign Prince Fielder? Holllllllllly sh*t.
Rob makes a great point here, IMO
This is an illustration between how we look at some of the “traditional stats” and how we look at some of the newer stats. Wins are just counting accomplishments- the ultimate result. What some of the newer stats, such as sabermetrics are trying to do is to remove the “luck” or “chance” elements from the numbers we have and use the stats for their predictive value.
I think we will all take 180 innings and an 11- 11 record from our fifth stater again, no matter how bad his ERA or WHIP are. The problem is, those numbers are not likely to give us 11 wins again. We were very fortunate, both in terms of health and timely run support.
On the flip side, Kid Rick got some nice W totals considering his ERA, but the FIP shows that his ERA is very likely to be lower next time around. And none of these guys will be hurt by the fact that we have a lineup that can bludgeon their way out of giving up a five run first inning.
"King of Minutiae"
I think Penny's most valuable contribution was how many innings he pitched
Yes, it seemed like JV was bailing out the bullpen nearly every time he took the hill, but 180 innings is still a boatload for a 5th starter. If we get that same contribution from a combination of any of the young’ns listed in your post with roughly the same peripherals that Penny posted last season, I don’t think anyone will be complaining by season’s end.
by Rob Rogacki on Jan 30, 2012 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd rather have 180 innings of 4.80 ERA than 150 innings of 5.30 ERA
That’s not too much to ask, is it?
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
I think an upside to a veteran
is you have a large enough sample to know what to expect. Right now these kids are unproven and probably won’t have any consistency. My guess is the 5th spot will be a revolving door if we don’t sign a veteran. I’d rather have five veteran starters and rely on the kids for spot starts. I also haven’t seen anything out of Wilk, Below, Oliver, or Turner that suggests these kids will be able to pitch their way out of the fourth on a regular basis.
Short of signing a dependable vet for 1 year, I'd love to see Below get a crack
He might not have the best stuff or a high draft pick pedigree, but every time I watched him pitch last year he seemed to be very even-keeled, very composed on the mound. And he seems like he’s pretty tough mentally. A low-risk, incentive laden deal for a guy like Harden or Kazmir or Webb or Young (assuming they’re healthy, a big if) might be interesting, but I think one of the “kids” could hold down the job at least until mid-season.
by CoreyMichaelDC on Jan 30, 2012 11:18 AM EST reply actions
I agree with Kurt 100%
If we can’t get Oswalt or someone with a good steady track record, then we should let the minor league system pay it’s dividends.
How often in my life-time have the Tigers had a handful of MLB ready starting pitchers in the minor leagues? This is a first time for me. Some might not be high end prospects, but neither were Nate Robertson or Armando Galarraga when they were rookies. Both had serviceable rookie seasons for us though. With Jacob Turner in the fold, this is a spectacular situation we are in. We got pitching galore.
Brandon Webb or Chris Young
seem like good bets to be a plus candidate for the #5 spot in the rotation IF they can prove they are healthy. Both have career ERA’s in the 3s. Both are 33 and looking to get healthy so they can get 1 or 2 more seasons of major league money. Webb was a workhorse stud Cy Young winner in 2006 and runner up two other seasons, but has barely played since the 2008 season due to various shoulder injuries. Young is HUGE at 6’10’’ 278 lbs and was having a nice start with the Mets last year until a tear of the anterior capsule of his right shoulder that required surgery. Doctors also found debris in his rotator cuff and cleaned it out. The surgery was performed on May 16, 2011. If either looks to be recovered and ready to go they may be able to be signed without raising the total salary number too much. Either could probably be had for a $2 million base with some incentives for innings pitched. Other than that, the FA list looks pretty sad…
I'm with you Chris Young
He is All-Star level when healthy…worth a risk
If I were going to sign a high risk/ high reward guy
I’d have gone after Bedard. If there is a longshot in the bunch above, it might be Ohlendorf. Terrible season last year, but success right before that. Probably get him on a minor league deal at this point.
The McLellan idea isn’t a bad one, either. If not needed in the rotation, he’d be a nice addition to the pen.
"King of Minutiae"
Order for Fifth Starter
1) Turner
2) Smyly
3) Bellow
4) Oliver – (Please dont be this choice. please!!!!)
by BennieBladesFan on Jan 30, 2012 6:00 PM EST reply actions
i agree with this
no lefties though – i doubt there’s good trade value for kid rick, but i’d dump him for a lefty if i could
by redwingxviii on Jan 30, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
Turner eventually takes the top spot, but not yet, IMO
1. Below
2. Smyly
3. Wilk
4. Oliver
Andy also has the biggest upside of this bunch if he puts it together. I feel the same with Smyly as I do with Turner. Bring him up when he is ready, rather than out of need in Detroit.
"King of Minutiae"
with the Tigers lineup....
any of these prospects might have a decent season.
One time when a prospect came up for the Yankees back in the day, the Babe is reported to have said “hold ‘em to 5 runs, kid, and we’ll win”.
This Tigers lineup has the potential to really be a modern version of murderers row. Maybe just beef up the middle relief a bit and this is a team where these kids as a 5th starter could do just fine. Limit their innings so as to not burn them out, just like we did with Porcello. Start building your rotation of the future while winning big right now.
I'm not sold on this being a high octane lineup yet
I think we’ll produce lots of runs with 2,3,4 hitters, but I’m not sold on the rest. There are too many questions around Boesch, Jackson, Young, Peralta, Avila, Raburn/Santiago and whatever we do at DH. Some will be answered positively, others will not. I think we’re still looking at a couple of shakey spots in the lineup.
The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love. ~Bryant Gumbel, 1981
You could do the over/ under game
You think you’ll bet better (over) performance or worse (under) from these players in 2012 vs 2011?
Just talking offense now.
C- .286 .368 .461 .829, little under
1B- 348 .448 .593 1.040 under (sorry prince)
2B- .260 .311 .394 .705 over
SS- .288 .338 .450 .789 under
3B- .222 .286 .331 .617 way in the hell over
LF- .256 .299 .414 .714 over
CF- .244 .311 .370 .682 over
RF- .290 .343 .447 .791 same (hey, that’s better than I thought in RF)
DH- .303 .354 .442 .796 under
All added up, some regression from Jhonny and Avila could be offset by a full season of Boesch and Raburn being more consistent. Delmon ain’t the greatest, but he’s better than the AAAA platoon we’ve been running out in LF. Victor is a big loss, but the net impact of Fielder bumping Inge more than offsets that.
The league’s fifth best offense should be improved, and should be one of the better ones in the league.
"King of Minutiae"

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