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Poll: Where should Al's son bat? The Story of Alex Avila

Promoted to the front for discussion -- Kurt

As we all know, Alex Avila had a huge break-out year last season and was one of the reasons why the Tigers ran away with the AL Central Division. One of the most intriguing things about his season though, was his spike in OBP, which was .389. One of the most controversial topics about this surge was that he spent almost half of the season batting 8th. He did move up to the 6th and 7th spots as the season progressed, but many people felt that he should of been batting at the top of the order.

The disturbing part is that Avila scored just a measly 63 runs (19 of which were from home runs) despite reaching base 191 times. He scored just 23% of the time that he reached base. The American League average for the 8th batter is 32%.

Star-divide

Here's a table that compares Scoring %'s (runs-hrs) / (hits+walks-hr)

Scoring % (not including HR's)





Scoring %
Name Runs HR Hits Walks (R - HR) / (H+BB-HR)






Alex Avila 63 19 137 73 23%






Austin Jackson 90 10 147 56 41%
Brennan Boesch 75 16 121 35 42%
Delmon Young 28 8 46 5 47%
Miguel Cabrera 111 30 197 108 29%
Victor Martinez 76 12 178 46 30%
Jhonny Peralta 68 21 157 40 27%
Ryan Raburn 53 14 99 21 37%
Brandon Inge 29 3 53 24 35%






Ramon Santiago 29 5 67 17 30%
Don Kelly 35 7 63 14 40%
Andy Dirks 34 7 55 11 46%






Magglio Ordonez 33 5 84 23 27%
Wilson Betemit 11 5 35 11 15%
Casper Wells 16 4 29 9 35%
Carlos Guillen 8 3 22 5 21%






American League Only 10117 2271 20004 6986 32%






1st batter 1366 202 2526 793 37%
2nd batter 1375 241 2477 819 37%
3rd batter 1246 342 2418 1021 29%
4th batter 1191 341 2324 886 30%
5th batter 1136 293 2319 780 30%
6th batter 999 274 2156 732 28%
7th batter 955 231 2036 714 29%
8th batter 959 205 1904 684 32%
9th batter 890 142 1844 557 33%

I do find it troubling that he scored just 44 times out of 191 scoring opportunities. The low Scoring % isn't Avila's own fault. I blame the guys batting behind him; Raburn, Inge, and AJax for the most past. They strike out too much and are less efficient in moving up base runners. Together they are rally killers.

Avila's OBP wasn't padded by 2 out situations either. He had a .405 OBP with no outs, a .414 OBP with 1 out, and with 2 outs his OBP was .352.

Split PA AB H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip
0 outs 171 149 50 6 23 16 30 .336 .405 .584 .989 .386
1 out 181 143 44 8 33 30 41 .308 .414 .552 .967 .356
2 outs 199 172 43 5 26 27 60 .250 .352 .401 .753 .355

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 1/9/2012.

Avlila's weakness is that he strikes out a lot, and when he tries to be aggressive, he strikes out even more. His strength is being patient, working the count, waiting for a pitch to pounce on, and taking the walk if he doesn't get that pitch. He thrives with or without men on base, with less than 2 outs. With a man on 3rd base with less than 2 outs, his OPS is a staggering 1.130, but with a man on third and 2 outs his OPS is 0.600.

Split PA AB H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip
RISP 166 124 36 5 1 3 58 31 39 .290 .415 .419 .834 .367
--- 278 243 73 20 1 12 12 33 65 .300 .388 .539 .928 .367
Men On 273 221 64 13 3 7 70 40 66 .290 .389 .471 .859 .365
1-- 107 97 28 8 2 4 12 9 27 .289 .349 .536 .885 .364
-2- 51 38 10 0 0 1 7 12 8 .263 .451 .342 .793 .310
--3 20 16 3 0 0 0 6 3 6 .188 .300 .188 .488 .273
12- 36 31 10 2 0 1 10 3 12 .323 .382 .484 .866 .500
1-3 30 21 7 2 0 0 11 8 7 .333 .500 .429 .929 .467
-23 13 9 3 0 1 1 10 2 3 .333 .385 .889 1.274 .286
123 16 9 3 1 0 0 14 3 3 .333 .375 .444 .819 .300
on 1st, lt 2 out 112 89 31 8 2 4 30 15 23 .348 .422 .618 1.040 .403
on 3rd, lt 2 out 41 24 10 1 1 1 31 9 7 .417 .463 .667 1.130 .375
on 3rd, 2 out 38 31 6 2 0 0 10 7 12 .194 .342 .258 .600 .316

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 1/9/2012.

By some measures, Avila's success doesn't look sustainable either. He had a .366 BABIP, which was well above his career BABIP average of .329. So some regression to his batting average may be on it's way. Regardless, he could still be more productive if his approach to hitting stays the same and his spot in line-up improves.

Now back to question that burns in everyone's mind, Leyland's line-ups.

Last season, I understood part of the reason why Avila was batting in the bottom of the order. There actually was some strategy behind it. Victor Martinez was already in the DH spot, so if Avila got hurt during a game and VMart had to catch, we'd have no DH and the pitcher would be need to bat. If the pitcher has to bat, you want him batting at the bottom of the order, not anywhere near Cabrera, or in the heart of the order.

Once VMart got hobbled and couldn't catch anymore, it was even more important to keep Avila healthy. We couldn't risk him getting injured on the base paths. So batting him down in order also made some sense because he wouldn't need to run the bases nearly as much. Less base running kept Avila healthy enough to play nearly every game after the All-Star break.

This year is a different story now that we have a real back-up catcher with Gerald Laird. So the question is where should Avila bat?

Batting 1st: His OBP would be optimized. Would his legs hold up though? Is it worth risking his health? I think we're trying to win games here, not just avoid injuries. So if AJax doesn't bounce back, Avila would be one of my top candidates for this spot. Cespedes will be a top option too if we can land him.

Batting 2nd: He could do some serious damage here with both his patience and his power. He'd give the pitcher hell if the lead-off guy is already on base. He can take a walk and set the table too. At a minimum, he'd work the count and insure that the pitcher doesn't have an easy 1st inning. With his power, we could immediately put runs on the board before the meat of the order comes up.

Batting 3rd: His patience would get tested here because nobody wants to put him on base and face Cabrera next. He'd probably be hitting in 2 out situations more often, which is something he's not good at yet. Boesch done extremely well batting 3rd last season. Delmon Young done well production wise here also. We could move Cabrera up to the 3rd slot as well. So we're not short on guys that can bat 3rd.

Batting 4th: This means Cabrera would be batting 3rd and he'd still have a few big bats behind him.

Batting 5th: He has better legs than VMart's, so this could make some sense.

Batting 6th: Behind Cabrera and VMart. Great spot for RBI's.

Batting 7th: Only if we're trying to save his legs again. The guys behind him likely won't be playing small ball.

Batting 8th: From MLive: "Leyland is senile. He wants Laird to bat 8th on Avila's days off, so Avila bats 8th too."

Batting 9th: Pass. This spot belongs to Inge, Raburn, Kelly, Santiago, Laird, or AJax.

Poll
Where do you think Avila should bat and why?
1st
8 votes
2nd
106 votes
3rd
41 votes
4th
1 votes
5th
43 votes
6th
164 votes
7th
88 votes
8th
9 votes
9th
4 votes
Doesn't matter where he bats
14 votes

478 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.

Comment 29 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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The problem with Avila. Or, how I learned to hate Jim Leylands lineup philosophy

The problem with hitting Avila at the top of the order is he will ‘only’ start 125-ish games this year.

And we all know how Jim doesn’t like to re-arrange his lineup when one of his starters gets the day off.

So, if Alex is in the 2 hole, we’;re going to get Gerald Laird in the 2 hole for over 35 games. While that reads alarmist and nonsensical … let’s not forget Clete hitting in the 3 because that’s where the guy he replaced was hitting. And other examples too numerous to remember(unless one enjoys nightmares.)

Can we expect Jim to hit Avila in the 2(his best spot, IMO)when he starts and the juggle the lineup to have Laird hit 9th when he starts? One would think it shouldn’t be too difficult … but, ya know.

Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.

by Singledigit on Jan 9, 2012 9:11 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think the strategy argument for batting Avila lower last year

is a good one. So his OBP is wasted for a hundred games on the off chance that for a single night the pitcher would bat third? Doesn’t make much sense…

I would hit Avila in the 2 hole if they don’t pick up another bat. Leadoff is looking like a continuation of last year’s frustration.

by BayesLaw on Jan 9, 2012 10:06 PM EST reply actions  

It might not be a good strategy argument,

but he batted 8th nevertheless. I’d like to hear a better reason to bat him 8th.

by Keith-Allen on Jan 9, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

There was no reason. That's why I was so mad about it last year.

I think it had more to do with not adding pressure. He already had a lot on his plate with the pitching staff.

by BayesLaw on Jan 9, 2012 10:45 PM EST up reply actions  

True, but

you lose Delmon’s effectiveness without the protection of Cabrera behind him. He’ll never see another good pitch to hit, and he’s never seen a bad pitch he didn’t like, so, . . .

by TigerTom on Jan 9, 2012 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd hit Boesch third

and if that didn’t work, I’d give Alex second crack at that spot. Otherwise, I’d hit AA sixth, behind Victor. I think that BB has the monster potential if he can get there- I mean Josh Hamilton stuff if he puts it all together. That’s probably dreaming, but even a noble effort toward that kind of performance (at the plate) would make a great No. 3.

Very nice charts and quality research, Keith.

"King of Minutiae"

by Tigerdog1 on Jan 10, 2012 1:21 AM EST reply actions  

Thanks, and I agree with you about Boesch

I think he has the best approach for hitting 3rd in front of Cabrera.
This is what he done:

                                                                               
Name GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip
Brennan Boesch 46 203 186 43 63 11 0 11 32 12 38 .339 .379 .575 .955 .371

That is Josh Hamilton stuff

by Keith-Allen on Jan 10, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I like 2nd

Sticking w/the 125 games he plays leaves ONLY 37 games he sits. How did our gang of Raburn, Kelly, and Santiago do when they hit from the 2 spot?

Good work; way to get my brain going.

by eromnek on Jan 10, 2012 8:54 AM EST reply actions  

Here's 2 spot stats from everyone last season

Rk GS PA AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip
1 Alex Avila 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1.000
2 Brandon Inge 0 4 2 0 1 0 1 1 1 .500 .750 1.000 1.750 1.000
3 Danny Worth 0 6 6 2 4 0 3 0 1 .667 .667 .833 1.500 .800
4 Wilson Betemit 2 8 6 2 3 1 1 2 2 .500 .625 1.500 2.125 .667
5 Magglio Ordonez 16 60 58 7 21 1 6 1 7 .362 .367 .448 .815 .392
6 Casper Wells 12 51 45 7 13 2 7 4 14 .289 .360 .556 .916 .379
7 Andy Dirks 12 56 50 12 14 2 5 5 7 .280 .357 .500 .857 .293
8 Ramon Santiago 16 86 74 9 22 1 10 4 8 .297 .341 .419 .760 .313
9 Will Rhymes 16 67 55 7 12 0 2 9 8 .218 .328 .273 .601 .255
10 Scott Sizemore 15 67 57 8 12 0 4 9 18 .211 .318 .228 .546 .308
11 Don Kelly 25 120 106 18 27 4 15 8 16 .255 .313 .415 .728 .267
12 Ryan Raburn 12 59 55 10 13 5 9 3 20 .236 .288 .527 .815 .267
13 Brennan Boesch 35 155 142 17 30 4 12 11 29 .211 .277 .338 .615 .239
14 Austin Jackson 1 4 4 0 1 0 0 0 2 .250 .250 .250 .500 .500
Team Total 162 744 660 100 173 20 75 58 133 .262 .329 .414 .742 .300

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 1/10/2012.

Avila had only 1 Plate Appearance, but he walked and scored a run.

by Keith-Allen on Jan 10, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Leyland's lineups

First of all hello,

I have been following this blog for at least a year, but this is my first comment. I must add it is a pain to sign up for everything just to put my two cents in ;)

I want to point out that in the chart above I also noticed how low Peralta’s scoring percentage was. Both AA and Jhonny were banished to the bottom of the lineup while Leyland wasted the 1-2 slots for most of the year.

When the Tigers made their run it was because they got Young and Ordonez had a good month. So we finally got rid of the terrible group that Leyland kept batting 2nd. I never understood why he refused to move up AA and Peralta who were clearly in the top 4 batters in the lineup with Cabrera and Martinez.

At one point you had Inge, Jackson, and Raburn batting in a row and all in the top10 in the league in strikeouts. This killed lots of rallies. This is why Leyland frustrates so many fans.

by Concretekax on Jan 10, 2012 9:15 PM EST reply actions  

welcome!

No longer the Founder, President and CEO of the Ryan Raburn Fan Club

by tigers22 on Jan 10, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Hello Crete,

The irony of it is that Avila is high strikeout guy too. So he was guilty by association with that rally killing chain-gang.

by Keith-Allen on Jan 10, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

True, but...

given the other options I like Peralta 2nd and AA 6th behind Martinez. I too like Bosch 3rd in front of Cabrera because he is such a free swinger and is more likely to see strikes there. I guess I don’t know where to put Young.

It just drove me crazy to see all of the guys listed by you above batting 2nd or 7th while Avila was stuck batting 8th for much of the season.

If a key bat gets injured why can’t Leyland shuffle his lineup instead of just inserting a bench player into the top of the lineup.

by Concretekax on Jan 12, 2012 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

mark me down for 6th

No longer the Founder, President and CEO of the Ryan Raburn Fan Club

by tigers22 on Jan 10, 2012 9:26 PM EST reply actions  

I'd hit him second

When Avila sits and Laird bats, I’d have Santiago start over Raburn and plug Ramon into the second spot. So normally, the catcher bats second and the second baseman bats eighth but when Avila needs a rest they switch.

Jimmy should be able to stomach that much lineup shifting…

by mgoblue4ever on Jan 10, 2012 9:46 PM EST reply actions  

I think you can make a case for him batting sixth or so

But that case is based on information that only the manager would know; how much batting lower in the order allows Avila to rest (and therefore to catch more).

Personally, I’d prefer Peralta hitting second

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

Contributor, Bless You Boys

by David Tokarz on Jan 11, 2012 12:04 AM EST reply actions  

I agree with this

I feel that the main reason that he is batting lower in the lineup is to give him as much rest in game as possible.

I definitely like the idea of Peralta batting 2nd though.

by wilsonm24 on Jan 11, 2012 7:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Lineups

If we give the Tigers AL-average run-scoring efficiency they should have scored 812 runs in 2011 instead of their actual 787. Given that the team ranked higher in RISP average than in overall average the issue does not appear to be lack of clutch hitting. UBR says the Tigers lost 6.8 runs versus average for poor baserunning. Adding it up it’s reasonable to estimate that suboptimal lineups cost the Tigers about 18 runs compared to average which translates to about 2 wins. The only AL team with a lower run-scoring efficiency than the Tigers in 2011 was the Red Sox and they replaced their manager.

by GWilson on Jan 11, 2012 3:30 AM EST reply actions  

In addition to what you said, going by pythagorean

With 787 runs scored and 711 runs allowed, we were expected to have 89 Wins. We got 95 wins with those line-ups. So we might of been poor at run-scoring efficiency, but we were very efficient at winning games.

Moving Avila or Peralta up in the order would help their scoring %‘s, but in return moving their RBI’s bats would hurt Cabera’s and VMart’s scoring efficiency. What we might lose in efficiency from the latter, we should make up in volume from the top. Like you said, the difference might be about 18 runs a year. That’s 1 run every 9 games.

Being that we over achieved by 6 wins, that extra 1 run every 9 games probably wouldn’t of helped us last year. Maybe this year it does it help us stay at 95 wins. We can’t expect Valverde and Benoit to be perfect again in 8th and 9th inning save situations. Perhaps this season, we’ll need some insurance runs.

by Keith-Allen on Jan 11, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

Going an AL-best 12 games over .500 in 1-run games played a big role in exceeding the Pythagorean. Much of that can be traced to the bullpen support which led to a 77-0 record when leading after 7 and an 83-0 record when leading after 8. A big part of Leyland’s genius in 2011 was his ability to use inefficient lineups to turn easy wins into close games which enhanced the entertainment level for spectators.

by GWilson on Jan 12, 2012 2:03 AM EST up reply actions  

It's for a push for me

8th or 6th. I’m leaning more towards the 8-spot, just to add more power and OBP to the bottom of that lineup

In a Tiger fan's world, the Tigers go 162-0 and the White Sox go 0-162.

by Boeschlander on Jan 11, 2012 4:59 PM EST reply actions  

to try and separate lefty - right

jax#1 al#2 cabby#3 boesch#4 vmart#5 dy#6 jp#7 ramon/rr#8 kelly/binge#9

the potential of this line-up vs righty or lefty is lethal. boesch makes this particular lineup, if he can keep healthy and his current line of course. al was great last year and here’s hoping for another great year.

by mase311 on Jan 11, 2012 8:08 PM EST reply actions  

Part of me wishes Jim Leyland would retire

And we would hire one of the BYB mods to manage the team. I’d love to see the numbers-based lineups you guys would put together.

by Thorpac on Jan 12, 2012 12:24 AM EST reply actions  

6th would be a good spot for him but...

That would mean Delmon would be 3rd, which is a big no-no. Bat him 3rd if it means Young gets moved to like 7th. We simply don’t have much better options.

by NintendoPlaystationNumbers on Jan 16, 2012 3:58 PM EST reply actions  

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