Poll: Where should Al's son bat? The Story of Alex Avila
Promoted to the front for discussion -- Kurt
As we all know, Alex Avila had a huge break-out year last season and was one of the reasons why the Tigers ran away with the AL Central Division. One of the most intriguing things about his season though, was his spike in OBP, which was .389. One of the most controversial topics about this surge was that he spent almost half of the season batting 8th. He did move up to the 6th and 7th spots as the season progressed, but many people felt that he should of been batting at the top of the order.
The disturbing part is that Avila scored just a measly 63 runs (19 of which were from home runs) despite reaching base 191 times. He scored just 23% of the time that he reached base. The American League average for the 8th batter is 32%.
Here's a table that compares Scoring %'s (runs-hrs) / (hits+walks-hr)
| Scoring % (not including HR's) | |||||
| Scoring % | |||||
| Name | Runs | HR | Hits | Walks | (R - HR) / (H+BB-HR) |
| Alex Avila | 63 | 19 | 137 | 73 | 23% |
| Austin Jackson | 90 | 10 | 147 | 56 | 41% |
| Brennan Boesch | 75 | 16 | 121 | 35 | 42% |
| Delmon Young | 28 | 8 | 46 | 5 | 47% |
| Miguel Cabrera | 111 | 30 | 197 | 108 | 29% |
| Victor Martinez | 76 | 12 | 178 | 46 | 30% |
| Jhonny Peralta | 68 | 21 | 157 | 40 | 27% |
| Ryan Raburn | 53 | 14 | 99 | 21 | 37% |
| Brandon Inge | 29 | 3 | 53 | 24 | 35% |
| Ramon Santiago | 29 | 5 | 67 | 17 | 30% |
| Don Kelly | 35 | 7 | 63 | 14 | 40% |
| Andy Dirks | 34 | 7 | 55 | 11 | 46% |
| Magglio Ordonez | 33 | 5 | 84 | 23 | 27% |
| Wilson Betemit | 11 | 5 | 35 | 11 | 15% |
| Casper Wells | 16 | 4 | 29 | 9 | 35% |
| Carlos Guillen | 8 | 3 | 22 | 5 | 21% |
| American League Only | 10117 | 2271 | 20004 | 6986 | 32% |
| 1st batter | 1366 | 202 | 2526 | 793 | 37% |
| 2nd batter | 1375 | 241 | 2477 | 819 | 37% |
| 3rd batter | 1246 | 342 | 2418 | 1021 | 29% |
| 4th batter | 1191 | 341 | 2324 | 886 | 30% |
| 5th batter | 1136 | 293 | 2319 | 780 | 30% |
| 6th batter | 999 | 274 | 2156 | 732 | 28% |
| 7th batter | 955 | 231 | 2036 | 714 | 29% |
| 8th batter | 959 | 205 | 1904 | 684 | 32% |
| 9th batter | 890 | 142 | 1844 | 557 | 33% |
I do find it troubling that he scored just 44 times out of 191 scoring opportunities. The low Scoring % isn't Avila's own fault. I blame the guys batting behind him; Raburn, Inge, and AJax for the most past. They strike out too much and are less efficient in moving up base runners. Together they are rally killers.
Avila's OBP wasn't padded by 2 out situations either. He had a .405 OBP with no outs, a .414 OBP with 1 out, and with 2 outs his OBP was .352.
| Split | PA | AB | H | HR | RBI | BB | SO | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0 outs | 171 | 149 | 50 | 6 | 23 | 16 | 30 | .336 | .405 | .584 | .989 | .386 |
| 1 out | 181 | 143 | 44 | 8 | 33 | 30 | 41 | .308 | .414 | .552 | .967 | .356 |
| 2 outs | 199 | 172 | 43 | 5 | 26 | 27 | 60 | .250 | .352 | .401 | .753 | .355 |
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 1/9/2012.
Avlila's weakness is that he strikes out a lot, and when he tries to be aggressive, he strikes out even more. His strength is being patient, working the count, waiting for a pitch to pounce on, and taking the walk if he doesn't get that pitch. He thrives with or without men on base, with less than 2 outs. With a man on 3rd base with less than 2 outs, his OPS is a staggering 1.130, but with a man on third and 2 outs his OPS is 0.600.
| Split | PA | AB | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| RISP | 166 | 124 | 36 | 5 | 1 | 3 | 58 | 31 | 39 | .290 | .415 | .419 | .834 | .367 |
| --- | 278 | 243 | 73 | 20 | 1 | 12 | 12 | 33 | 65 | .300 | .388 | .539 | .928 | .367 |
| Men On | 273 | 221 | 64 | 13 | 3 | 7 | 70 | 40 | 66 | .290 | .389 | .471 | .859 | .365 |
| 1-- | 107 | 97 | 28 | 8 | 2 | 4 | 12 | 9 | 27 | .289 | .349 | .536 | .885 | .364 |
| -2- | 51 | 38 | 10 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 7 | 12 | 8 | .263 | .451 | .342 | .793 | .310 |
| --3 | 20 | 16 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 3 | 6 | .188 | .300 | .188 | .488 | .273 |
| 12- | 36 | 31 | 10 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 10 | 3 | 12 | .323 | .382 | .484 | .866 | .500 |
| 1-3 | 30 | 21 | 7 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 11 | 8 | 7 | .333 | .500 | .429 | .929 | .467 |
| -23 | 13 | 9 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 10 | 2 | 3 | .333 | .385 | .889 | 1.274 | .286 |
| 123 | 16 | 9 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 14 | 3 | 3 | .333 | .375 | .444 | .819 | .300 |
| on 1st, lt 2 out | 112 | 89 | 31 | 8 | 2 | 4 | 30 | 15 | 23 | .348 | .422 | .618 | 1.040 | .403 |
| on 3rd, lt 2 out | 41 | 24 | 10 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 31 | 9 | 7 | .417 | .463 | .667 | 1.130 | .375 |
| on 3rd, 2 out | 38 | 31 | 6 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 10 | 7 | 12 | .194 | .342 | .258 | .600 | .316 |
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 1/9/2012.
By some measures, Avila's success doesn't look sustainable either. He had a .366 BABIP, which was well above his career BABIP average of .329. So some regression to his batting average may be on it's way. Regardless, he could still be more productive if his approach to hitting stays the same and his spot in line-up improves.
Now back to question that burns in everyone's mind, Leyland's line-ups.
Last season, I understood part of the reason why Avila was batting in the bottom of the order. There actually was some strategy behind it. Victor Martinez was already in the DH spot, so if Avila got hurt during a game and VMart had to catch, we'd have no DH and the pitcher would be need to bat. If the pitcher has to bat, you want him batting at the bottom of the order, not anywhere near Cabrera, or in the heart of the order.
Once VMart got hobbled and couldn't catch anymore, it was even more important to keep Avila healthy. We couldn't risk him getting injured on the base paths. So batting him down in order also made some sense because he wouldn't need to run the bases nearly as much. Less base running kept Avila healthy enough to play nearly every game after the All-Star break.
This year is a different story now that we have a real back-up catcher with Gerald Laird. So the question is where should Avila bat?
Batting 1st: His OBP would be optimized. Would his legs hold up though? Is it worth risking his health? I think we're trying to win games here, not just avoid injuries. So if AJax doesn't bounce back, Avila would be one of my top candidates for this spot. Cespedes will be a top option too if we can land him.
Batting 2nd: He could do some serious damage here with both his patience and his power. He'd give the pitcher hell if the lead-off guy is already on base. He can take a walk and set the table too. At a minimum, he'd work the count and insure that the pitcher doesn't have an easy 1st inning. With his power, we could immediately put runs on the board before the meat of the order comes up.
Batting 3rd: His patience would get tested here because nobody wants to put him on base and face Cabrera next. He'd probably be hitting in 2 out situations more often, which is something he's not good at yet. Boesch done extremely well batting 3rd last season. Delmon Young done well production wise here also. We could move Cabrera up to the 3rd slot as well. So we're not short on guys that can bat 3rd.
Batting 4th: This means Cabrera would be batting 3rd and he'd still have a few big bats behind him.
Batting 5th: He has better legs than VMart's, so this could make some sense.
Batting 6th: Behind Cabrera and VMart. Great spot for RBI's.
Batting 7th: Only if we're trying to save his legs again. The guys behind him likely won't be playing small ball.
Batting 8th: From MLive: "Leyland is senile. He wants Laird to bat 8th on Avila's days off, so Avila bats 8th too."
Batting 9th: Pass. This spot belongs to Inge, Raburn, Kelly, Santiago, Laird, or AJax.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Bless You Boys writing staff.
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The problem with Avila. Or, how I learned to hate Jim Leylands lineup philosophy
The problem with hitting Avila at the top of the order is he will ‘only’ start 125-ish games this year.
And we all know how Jim doesn’t like to re-arrange his lineup when one of his starters gets the day off.
So, if Alex is in the 2 hole, we’;re going to get Gerald Laird in the 2 hole for over 35 games. While that reads alarmist and nonsensical … let’s not forget Clete hitting in the 3 because that’s where the guy he replaced was hitting. And other examples too numerous to remember(unless one enjoys nightmares.)
Can we expect Jim to hit Avila in the 2(his best spot, IMO)when he starts and the juggle the lineup to have Laird hit 9th when he starts? One would think it shouldn’t be too difficult … but, ya know.
Justin can now let the fungus grow back on his shower shoes.
I don't think the strategy argument for batting Avila lower last year
is a good one. So his OBP is wasted for a hundred games on the off chance that for a single night the pitcher would bat third? Doesn’t make much sense…
I would hit Avila in the 2 hole if they don’t pick up another bat. Leadoff is looking like a continuation of last year’s frustration.
It might not be a good strategy argument,
but he batted 8th nevertheless. I’d like to hear a better reason to bat him 8th.
There was no reason. That's why I was so mad about it last year.
I think it had more to do with not adding pressure. He already had a lot on his plate with the pitching staff.
True, but
you lose Delmon’s effectiveness without the protection of Cabrera behind him. He’ll never see another good pitch to hit, and he’s never seen a bad pitch he didn’t like, so, . . .
I'd hit Boesch third
and if that didn’t work, I’d give Alex second crack at that spot. Otherwise, I’d hit AA sixth, behind Victor. I think that BB has the monster potential if he can get there- I mean Josh Hamilton stuff if he puts it all together. That’s probably dreaming, but even a noble effort toward that kind of performance (at the plate) would make a great No. 3.
Very nice charts and quality research, Keith.
"King of Minutiae"
Thanks, and I agree with you about Boesch
I think he has the best approach for hitting 3rd in front of Cabrera.
This is what he done:
Name GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip
Brennan Boesch 46 203 186 43 63 11 0 11 32 12 38 .339 .379 .575 .955 .371
That is Josh Hamilton stuff
I like 2nd
Sticking w/the 125 games he plays leaves ONLY 37 games he sits. How did our gang of Raburn, Kelly, and Santiago do when they hit from the 2 spot?
Good work; way to get my brain going.
Here's 2 spot stats from everyone last season
Rk GS PA AB R H HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip
1 Alex Avila 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1.000
2 Brandon Inge 0 4 2 0 1 0 1 1 1 .500 .750 1.000 1.750 1.000
3 Danny Worth 0 6 6 2 4 0 3 0 1 .667 .667 .833 1.500 .800
4 Wilson Betemit 2 8 6 2 3 1 1 2 2 .500 .625 1.500 2.125 .667
5 Magglio Ordonez 16 60 58 7 21 1 6 1 7 .362 .367 .448 .815 .392
6 Casper Wells 12 51 45 7 13 2 7 4 14 .289 .360 .556 .916 .379
7 Andy Dirks 12 56 50 12 14 2 5 5 7 .280 .357 .500 .857 .293
8 Ramon Santiago 16 86 74 9 22 1 10 4 8 .297 .341 .419 .760 .313
9 Will Rhymes 16 67 55 7 12 0 2 9 8 .218 .328 .273 .601 .255
10 Scott Sizemore 15 67 57 8 12 0 4 9 18 .211 .318 .228 .546 .308
11 Don Kelly 25 120 106 18 27 4 15 8 16 .255 .313 .415 .728 .267
12 Ryan Raburn 12 59 55 10 13 5 9 3 20 .236 .288 .527 .815 .267
13 Brennan Boesch 35 155 142 17 30 4 12 11 29 .211 .277 .338 .615 .239
14 Austin Jackson 1 4 4 0 1 0 0 0 2 .250 .250 .250 .500 .500
Team Total 162 744 660 100 173 20 75 58 133 .262 .329 .414 .742 .300
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 1/10/2012.
Avila had only 1 Plate Appearance, but he walked and scored a run.
Leyland's lineups
First of all hello,
I have been following this blog for at least a year, but this is my first comment. I must add it is a pain to sign up for everything just to put my two cents in ;)
I want to point out that in the chart above I also noticed how low Peralta’s scoring percentage was. Both AA and Jhonny were banished to the bottom of the lineup while Leyland wasted the 1-2 slots for most of the year.
When the Tigers made their run it was because they got Young and Ordonez had a good month. So we finally got rid of the terrible group that Leyland kept batting 2nd. I never understood why he refused to move up AA and Peralta who were clearly in the top 4 batters in the lineup with Cabrera and Martinez.
At one point you had Inge, Jackson, and Raburn batting in a row and all in the top10 in the league in strikeouts. This killed lots of rallies. This is why Leyland frustrates so many fans.
Hello Crete,
The irony of it is that Avila is high strikeout guy too. So he was guilty by association with that rally killing chain-gang.
by Keith-Allen on Jan 10, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
True, but...
given the other options I like Peralta 2nd and AA 6th behind Martinez. I too like Bosch 3rd in front of Cabrera because he is such a free swinger and is more likely to see strikes there. I guess I don’t know where to put Young.
It just drove me crazy to see all of the guys listed by you above batting 2nd or 7th while Avila was stuck batting 8th for much of the season.
If a key bat gets injured why can’t Leyland shuffle his lineup instead of just inserting a bench player into the top of the lineup.
I'd hit him second
When Avila sits and Laird bats, I’d have Santiago start over Raburn and plug Ramon into the second spot. So normally, the catcher bats second and the second baseman bats eighth but when Avila needs a rest they switch.
Jimmy should be able to stomach that much lineup shifting…
I think you can make a case for him batting sixth or so
But that case is based on information that only the manager would know; how much batting lower in the order allows Avila to rest (and therefore to catch more).
Personally, I’d prefer Peralta hitting second
"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz
"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching
Contributor, Bless You Boys
I agree with this
I feel that the main reason that he is batting lower in the lineup is to give him as much rest in game as possible.
I definitely like the idea of Peralta batting 2nd though.
Lineups
If we give the Tigers AL-average run-scoring efficiency they should have scored 812 runs in 2011 instead of their actual 787. Given that the team ranked higher in RISP average than in overall average the issue does not appear to be lack of clutch hitting. UBR says the Tigers lost 6.8 runs versus average for poor baserunning. Adding it up it’s reasonable to estimate that suboptimal lineups cost the Tigers about 18 runs compared to average which translates to about 2 wins. The only AL team with a lower run-scoring efficiency than the Tigers in 2011 was the Red Sox and they replaced their manager.
In addition to what you said, going by pythagorean
With 787 runs scored and 711 runs allowed, we were expected to have 89 Wins. We got 95 wins with those line-ups. So we might of been poor at run-scoring efficiency, but we were very efficient at winning games.
Moving Avila or Peralta up in the order would help their scoring %‘s, but in return moving their RBI’s bats would hurt Cabera’s and VMart’s scoring efficiency. What we might lose in efficiency from the latter, we should make up in volume from the top. Like you said, the difference might be about 18 runs a year. That’s 1 run every 9 games.
Being that we over achieved by 6 wins, that extra 1 run every 9 games probably wouldn’t of helped us last year. Maybe this year it does it help us stay at 95 wins. We can’t expect Valverde and Benoit to be perfect again in 8th and 9th inning save situations. Perhaps this season, we’ll need some insurance runs.
Yep
Going an AL-best 12 games over .500 in 1-run games played a big role in exceeding the Pythagorean. Much of that can be traced to the bullpen support which led to a 77-0 record when leading after 7 and an 83-0 record when leading after 8. A big part of Leyland’s genius in 2011 was his ability to use inefficient lineups to turn easy wins into close games which enhanced the entertainment level for spectators.
It's for a push for me
8th or 6th. I’m leaning more towards the 8-spot, just to add more power and OBP to the bottom of that lineup
In a Tiger fan's world, the Tigers go 162-0 and the White Sox go 0-162.
to try and separate lefty - right
jax#1 al#2 cabby#3 boesch#4 vmart#5 dy#6 jp#7 ramon/rr#8 kelly/binge#9
the potential of this line-up vs righty or lefty is lethal. boesch makes this particular lineup, if he can keep healthy and his current line of course. al was great last year and here’s hoping for another great year.
Part of me wishes Jim Leyland would retire
And we would hire one of the BYB mods to manage the team. I’d love to see the numbers-based lineups you guys would put together.
6th would be a good spot for him but...
That would mean Delmon would be 3rd, which is a big no-no. Bat him 3rd if it means Young gets moved to like 7th. We simply don’t have much better options.
by NintendoPlaystationNumbers on Jan 16, 2012 3:58 PM EST reply actions

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