Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Just wanted to link this for those who hadn't heard the news yet. The MLB doesn't seem to be very happy with the decision, and I can't say I blame them. Brewers fans have got be pretty happy right now though.

3 months ago Tigs_tiny tigers22 79 comments 0 recs  | 

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

sure is... he's definitely a 1st round option now

so for leagues that drafted early, he’ll end up being an absolute steal

Did we really just sign Prince Fielder? Holllllllllly sh*t.

by tigers22 on Feb 23, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Bad chain of custody

Couple that with him having the highest test result in history, and it sounds rather like somebody tried to frame him.

by rea on Feb 23, 2012 6:31 PM EST reply actions  

could be

Go Wings!!! and Go Blue!!! Forever!!!

by KGW on Feb 23, 2012 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Weird situation.

Technically, he wasn’t declared innocent; he escaped through a loophole and some beauracratic rules. Everything I have read says ‘he beat the system’, not ‘he is innocent’.

Tired of generic music??? Exterminate All Rational Thought is here to help!

by Siggzilla on Feb 23, 2012 8:50 PM EST reply actions  

I'm thinking the same thing Sigg

Did we really just sign Prince Fielder? Holllllllllly sh*t.

by tigers22 on Feb 23, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

To me at least

The bigger story coming out of this is that MLB still doesn’t have testing down to a science yet.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -Rogers Hornsby

by InLeylandWeTrust on Feb 23, 2012 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

You'd think they would have testing down pat by now

I find it hard to believe MLB doesn’t have a contingency plan for the handling and transporting of drug tests taken over a weekend. The fact the sample sat for a couple of days makes MLB look incompetent.

I'm owner/editor of The Wayne Fontes Experience a deputy editor at Bless You Boys, host the Bless You Boys Podcast and co-host The Knee Jerks podcast.

by BigAl on Feb 24, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Go read Will Carroll on twitter

Here, here and here.

There were legitimate reasons why the test was ruled invalid.

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 23, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

No, no, no!

A break in the chain of custody for the sample isn’t “a loophole” or “beating the system.” It means that MLB can’t prove that the sample tested was really the sample given by Braun. Essentially, they lost track of the sample for a couple of days, and can’t explain what happened to it. Add to that the fact that the test esult was the highest in history, and absolutely, he’s not guilty on the merits of the case agaisnt him.

by rea on Feb 24, 2012 6:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Thank you

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 24, 2012 8:38 AM EST up reply actions  

And there wasn't enough evidence to convict OJ

Look, I’ll be the first to admit I am a skeptic, and believe much less than I am told. But the arguments they are making are almost borderline lunacy. I’m all for someone sticking it to the system, but I someone expects me to believe that someone tampered with urine, or if holding for too long causes levels to spike, or there was a vindictive anti-Semitic who got in the line where he shouldn’t have then I guess you all don’t see my wave-length.

While I can agree, there were some questionable practices to all this, it still points towards him being guilty, IMO. And yeah, you don’t string out a man when you can not definitively asign 100% guilt, but let’s not kid ourselves here. It’s far more likely he was guilty of having SOMETHING in his system than it was that he was screwed over and he escaped on clauses. I am a believer that the rumors I heard through the season that he had herpes and the spike he had was from what he took to treat it. I don’t believe Braun was set up or framed. It just makes no sense for the MLB would want a MVP to test positive after all they have been through with this subject already.

None of the information should have been made public, regardless. Now neither side seems to have any credibility. All it look like is no players are trying to beat the system, and the system seems to incompetent to give definitive answers.

Tired of generic music??? Exterminate All Rational Thought is here to help!

by Siggzilla on Feb 24, 2012 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

yes
if holding for too long causes levels to spike

there is a reason for the timeline and strict procedures for storing samples. Components in samples start to breakdown after a certain amount of time. If the testosterone in a sample takes longer to break down then other aspects of that sample then delays could show a spike as the parts per million of a condensed sample would be higher in testosterone if the other components had deteriorated.

I don’t know the specifics of this testing procedure but it is a very real possibility that delays could have shown a spike in testosterone levels.

by wilsonm24 on Feb 24, 2012 9:17 AM EST up reply actions  

That reads to me as;

Instead of his levels just being high, thanks to the holding it made them the highest.

Tired of generic music??? Exterminate All Rational Thought is here to help!

by Siggzilla on Feb 24, 2012 9:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Really?

Because it reads to me that MLB f*cked up the testing.

Stop presuming guilt because it makes you feel good.

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 24, 2012 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Believe me; I feel better about his acquittal

I look like a genius for taking him in the 8th round of our draft now.

And I agree the MLB messed up, but I can’t believe he is 100% innocent. All I have read points to both sides being wrong here.

Tired of generic music??? Exterminate All Rational Thought is here to help!

by Siggzilla on Feb 24, 2012 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Bingo
None of the information should have been made public, regardless. Now neither side seems to have any credibility. All it look like is no players are trying to beat the system, and the system seems to incompetent to give definitive answers.

This paragraph wins the thread.

by Rob Rogacki on Feb 24, 2012 9:20 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

*facedesk

An independent arbitrator ruled he was not guilty. That means he was not guilty. There is literally no way it could be any clearer.

There were issues with the chain of command. From the stories I read, the guy in charge of delivering the sample left it in his basement overnight “where it was cooler”. That’s not a technicality, that’s a damn major problem.

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 24, 2012 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

SI and Jeff Passan both say it was a refrigerator.

which is common procedure when samples can’t be transported right away. The sample itself was taken on a saturday afternoon, which would make it virtually impossible to transport until Monday. Refridgeration is standard operating procedure at that point for any sample. The issue and the technicality comes from it not being listed in MLB’s procedure. This article states that the sample showed no tampering and no signs of degradation by the Montreal lab.

“Around the world, on Sundays or holidays, couriers don’t pick up and they don’t deliver,” said Travis Tygart, the CEO of the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), which drug tests American athletes in Olympic sports. “Some of the labs around the world are closed over the weekend, so they can’t even accept samples. And, importantly, they don’t need to because synthetic drugs don’t magically appear in urine because it took 48 hours versus 20 minutes to get to the laboratory.”

Until somebody proves that time can raise synthetic testosterone that high or that the samples were rigged, this is innocence by technicality. Braun should be serving a suspension, but he isn’t.

by madpoopz on Feb 24, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

No

It’s “not guilty”. The burdens required by MLB’s own bloody testing policies have been met by the Braun camp and the MLBPA. That’s it; discussion over. There’s no technicality involved.

Besides, Poopz, as much as I respect your work in biomechanics, I’m going with Will Carroll, who says that this was decided on the basis of the science.

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 24, 2012 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Basing your opinion on one guy and his findings

In this situation seems foolhardy to me, especially considering the mix of information we have been given. I understand your backing of his opinion, but the point is that we have been given a lot of conflicting information. To not give more than one example of information and not look at all of this as a collective group of reports seems very much out of your style. I thought you to be more of a cynic than to only take one side of a story and just one mans professional opinion and call it gospel.

Tired of generic music??? Exterminate All Rational Thought is here to help!

by Siggzilla on Feb 24, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Most of the professionals I read are saying the same things

It’s the talking heads and the Jeff Passan’s of the world that are calling for Braun’s head.

And that’s no offense to you- I think you’re trying to make a more nuanced case than “Oh, he may have used steroids. ASTERISK!” But it’s incredibly frustrating. The guy got due process.

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 24, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Several stories conflict Carroll...

and Carroll is conflicting himself because that article I linked too I got from a tweet by Carroll.

Like Siggzilla is saying, there is too much of a mix of information going around to just be saying “That’s it; discussion over.” That is a totally fool hardy statement at this point.

As for Carroll himself, I’ve yet to read anything today telling me that Braun’s camp debated the results at all. Their whole argument was supposedly based in the timeliness it took to ship the sample. They never argued storage, they never argued results. They argued time frame. Since a source in the article I linked claims that the samples were undamaged and undegraded, I’m having a hard time believing that the science itself was wrong.

What made the sample high is still an unknown. But it’s getting increasingly obvious that there was no argument against it. But this was not scientific error. It was a technicality in time frame.

by madpoopz on Feb 24, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Time frame can matter in terms of the science

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 24, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I think

I will take the word of a writer who specializes in sports injury and performance enhancing drugs over Joe “I need to make a splash” controversy reporter when it comes to matters related to performance enhancing drugs.

Not only that, but the talk of his defenses whole argument being based on the delay is false, as noted in the link you posted.

at least part of Braun’s defense hinged on his sample having been collected on a Saturday afternoon — Oct. 1, after the Brewers beat the Diamondbacks in Game 1 of the NLDS — but not in time for the doping control officer to get it to FedEx that day.

So obviously his whole defense was not just based on the delay but other factors as well. Unless you know what those factors are and what other evidence was presented then you really have no idea what Braun’s camp debated.

Just like any other case (OJ and Anthony were recently used as examples) our fine American judicial systems states that we are innocent until proven guilty. Braun was found innocent, so to say that he is guilty of anything is wrong, it is pretty plain and simple. Do you or Sigg have any evidence that proves him innocent, other than a test and procedure that was proven to be improperly conducted?

by wilsonm24 on Feb 24, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Accurate on the Carroll stuff

Though I’d say that if the science is settled, that strongly implies innocence.

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 24, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Here is a link

to an Carroll interview that explains that it wasn’t the chain of command that showed his evidence, but that his defense team could produce the same exact results given how his sample was handled.

If you can duplicate the positive result on a negative sample using the procedure that MLB does, then that cast serious doubt on the viability of MLB’s procedures, and rightfully based on that his suspension was overturned.

by wilsonm24 on Feb 24, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And that's damn convincing.

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 24, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

bah
any evidence that proves him innocent,

Proves him guilty would make more sense….

by wilsonm24 on Feb 24, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree

He doesn’t have to prove his innocence. There are specific procedures outlined in the agreement, and they were not followed. These procedures are more than “technicalities”. They are in place to ensure the reliability of the test. Bad procedures equal unreliable results.

"King of Minutiae"

by Tigerdog1 on Feb 24, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Thank you

Figures the lawyer would jump in on this point. :)

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 24, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow

I find it interesting that Braun was more concerned with the chain of custody than the actual results of the test.

Detroit Tigers: 2011 AL Central Champs

by cabby4mvp on Feb 23, 2012 8:58 PM EST reply actions  

Yep my take:

He did it and got away on a technicality. As far as I’m concerned, he’s the the dreaded asterisk next to anything he accomplishes.

by Skeptical Dawg on Feb 23, 2012 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Thats true about the asterisk

But he will also be the 1st person to beat the system, and now let the flood gates open…

by msivits on Feb 24, 2012 4:57 AM EST up reply actions  

This isn't the start of another steroid era

Testing is in place and will continue to improve. If anything, this means that the MLB will tighten things up on their end to ensure that it doesn’t happen again.

by Rob Rogacki on Feb 24, 2012 8:00 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It's not that

the delay in sending in the sample can CAUSE a false positive test, and Braun’s representatives apparently demonstrated that by repeating it.

"King of Minutiae"

by Tigerdog1 on Feb 23, 2012 10:17 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

my question is...

did they demonstrate that testosterone will rise under the circumstances, or did they repeat the exact results?

If they proved the first one, then he’s off on a technicality because he would still have to have elevated testosterone. If it’s the second one then obviously it’s testing errors.

Big part of this argument is what exactly did his representatives show?

by madpoopz on Feb 24, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I think his argument is that chain of custody did have an affect on the test results

A faulty chain poisons any results that come after it. At least Milwaukee has plenty of beer to celebrate with!

by CoreyMichaelDC on Feb 23, 2012 9:18 PM EST reply actions  

From Will Carroll
The Braun decision was based on HOW the sample was corrupted. Panel was shown exactly what happened, why result was invalid.

So, Braun’s representatives were able to replicate a false positive test? Well, if you show it’s possible that the test could be false and show exactly how, then no wonder the arbitrator agreed.

"King of Minutiae"

by Tigerdog1 on Feb 23, 2012 9:43 PM EST reply actions  

while those are valid and possibly true points

this opens up a whole new set of problems for future positive tests.

Did we really just sign Prince Fielder? Holllllllllly sh*t.

by tigers22 on Feb 23, 2012 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe not

Carroll is writing an article for SI on this, but it seems that Braun’s reps were able to demonstrate how delaying the sending of the urine sample by a couple of days caused a false positive. If true, they just have to follow procedures and get the sample sent in on time. Only piecing things together from twitter, here.

"King of Minutiae"

by Tigerdog1 on Feb 23, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

bingo

I’ve worked in labs where the integrity of sample collection was extremely important. If a sample arrived and it was not packaged properly, shipped at the proper temperature, and arrived at the lab by overnight shipping etc. it was just rejected out of hand because the results were unreliable. Could be high, could be low, but regardless they would not be correct. It isn’t a technicality, it is an important part of the laboratory’s quality control program for ensuring that data is reliable.

If MLB is upset about this result, I have ZERO sympathy for them, just as I have ZERO sympathy for someone who come into my lab with samples that were improperly collected and then whine when they have to go out the next day and do it again. If you want data to be reliable, the sample not only has to be tested properly, but it also has to be collected, stored, and shipped properly.

MLB was amateurish and slipshod in their procedures and should stop whining and get their poop in a pile and do a better job. Until then, SHUT UP and get someone who actually is COMPETENT in lab work to consult you. Asses.

Random nonsense at @Baroque97

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Feb 24, 2012 5:20 AM EST up reply actions  

So you're saying the MLB is incompetent at something?

I don't know if I've ever heard that about them before.

by Rob Rogacki on Feb 24, 2012 8:02 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

hahaha :)

Random nonsense at @Baroque97

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Feb 25, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

As Baroque says, this is ALL on MLB

QFFT: “If you want data to be reliable, the sample not only has to be tested properly, but it also has to be collected, stored, and shipped properly.”

MLB is a multi-billion dollar business, but they can’t ship a test sample correctly. You’d think they could find a few thousand bucks in the couch cushions at MLB HQ, and shell out for expedited weekend shipping.

I'm owner/editor of The Wayne Fontes Experience a deputy editor at Bless You Boys, host the Bless You Boys Podcast and co-host The Knee Jerks podcast.

by BigAl on Feb 24, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

The real issues here ought to be . . .

(1) why MLB even went forward with this, when the chain of custody was so screwed up and the test results so unusual. If this were a criminal prosecution, the case would have been dropped by just about any prosecutor in the country. And (2) how the results were leaked to the press, wrecking Braun’s reputation before he had a chance to defend himself.

by rea on Feb 24, 2012 6:57 AM EST reply actions  

Craig Calcaterra posted a really good article this morning for all the haters

I’ll just post it here and leave so I don’t get banned for saying something fantastically inappropriate to all those who think Braun skated by.

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 24, 2012 8:40 AM EST reply actions  

Say it anyway

I’m bored and need something to do.

by Rob Rogacki on Feb 24, 2012 9:12 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

For all the haters?

Are you kidding? It doesn’t make me a hater because I think this man is guilty of doing something. The MLB majorly fucked this up, and because of that Braun doesn’t deseve to serve a 50 game suspension, but that DOES NOT mean one bit he never used some form of PED.

I read that article, and I do care that procedure wasn’t followed. It’s pathetic and embarrasing to the MLB. But I’m also not a legal idiot. After a couple of years of law school and being around lawyers its pretty obvious what Braun’s legal teams gameplan was, and I can’t complain about it because that’s what these guys are paid to do. They were VERY VERY VERY careful not to argue that Braun never took synthetic testosterone, and again good for them, they wanted to move the focus away from that topic and lay it directly on that little cup.

by JWurm on Feb 25, 2012 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

The problem I think most of the "cynics" have

is that even though Braun’s team showed how the delay’s could cause inaccurate results, this does scream of a technicality. It is akin to a criminal getting off because police collected evidence without a search warrant, or they didn’t read a criminal his Miranda rights prior to arresting him, or entrapment. Those cases don’t change the fact that the person in question did something wrong, but because procedures weren’t followed they are free to get away with it.

I am not saying this is the case with Braun. I understand the potential for inaccurate tests in a lab based on contaminated or improperly handled samples.

However, because of the state of reporting today (the need to be the first to “break” the news which leads to only partial stories being reported) people go with the first thing they read and that is their stance from that point forward (the whole first impression thing). The first reports stated that he was found innocent based on a broken chain of custody, there was no mention of how his defense team showed that this delay could lead to inaccurate tests, so at first read that looks like a technicality to the masses instead of a viable cause for concern about the validity of the test. Hell there were even initial reports stating that he was found guilty by the arbitration board.

To the casual (and even not so casual) sports fan they are not going to spend a couple hours for the rest of the story to come out, they are going to see the main story and that has set their opinion.

by wilsonm24 on Feb 24, 2012 9:13 AM EST reply actions  

BTW, more from Fangraphs

Confirmation bias is bad.

"You, on the other hand, make Eeyore look like Rainbow Brite." -johnmoz

"I think of you more as the blue book style essay of sports journalism."-Kurt Mensching

by David Tokarz on Feb 24, 2012 11:17 AM EST reply actions  

I'm just gonna make one more post on this then I'm out, because it's getting out of hand.

this whole thing, from Braun to MLB, to the fans themselves…has become one giant debacle. We’ll be doing ourselves a great favor to all keep quiet for a bit look for consistency in the reports before we start talking more. There is too fine of a line right now between reports to call anything any of us are saying “facts.”

by madpoopz on Feb 24, 2012 12:11 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, it's become increasingly clear . . .

. . . that a lot of what has been said about what happened at the hearing (including reports by allegedly real reporters) is horse manure.

by rea on Feb 24, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow...

Reading some comments here – please tell me you are never called for jury duty….

Think MLB will next go after Braun for tax evasion?

by dakine2004 on Feb 24, 2012 6:47 PM EST reply actions  

Wouldn't bother

Pretty sure he’s got an accountant in the family.

Tired of generic music??? Exterminate All Rational Thought is here to help!

by Siggzilla on Feb 24, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

So my question is...

is Braun actually taking the position that he did not use a substance that resulted in the riduculously positive test? I have very few brain cells left, at my advanced age, but I cannot recall seeing this kind of statement from him.
If not, his sanctimonious posture about having his name dragged through the mud rings pretty hollow to me.

by knucklescarbone on Feb 24, 2012 10:45 PM EST reply actions  

Yes, Braun has denied using any substances
At the time his positive test was reported and again Friday, Braun said that he had not taken a banned substance resulting in the positive test result.

“If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally, I’d be the first one to step up and say I did it,” Braun said. “I would bet my life this substance never entered my body.”

via ESPN

by Rob Rogacki on Feb 25, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Again, though

It’s important to note that this was never argued legally.

by JWurm on Feb 25, 2012 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Does that matter?

It seems as if Braun’s team took the strategic route that would ensure that their client won his case. Just because they didn’t argue it legally doesn’t mean that his statement is false.

by Rob Rogacki on Feb 25, 2012 9:57 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Does it matter in the court of law? No

But in public opinion? Yeah. It raises suspicion. It leaves me with some questions. If I knew I never once touch a PED I’d probably want to discuss that in a legal venue to give more credence to my case.

I’m not sitting here saying he did it. I’m just not sitting here saying that he didn’t do it either. That’s all. And i don’t care whay anyone says, but none of us will probably ever know either way, and at the end of the day, that’s the MLB’s fault and no one else’s. Which is exactly why I’m completely ok with Braun’s suspenion being lifted. I just have a huge problem with the people that act like since Braun won the appeal, then there’s zero chance he did it, because that’s just not the case.

If you’d like my opinion, I think Braun did it, but again, that’s irrelevant because none of us really know.

What really needs to be talked about, and I think you’ve mentioned it a couple of times, is that the MLB needs to get its shit together. Because either way they’re the ones that messed up, whether or not Braun did something or not, the MLB handled this in an extremely embarrassing way.

by JWurm on Feb 25, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I would guess he didn't discuss it much

Because he can’t win. Some people are only going to see a positive result for a test and think he did it no matter what he says, so why even bother wasting his breath? May as well go with an argument that he can actually win instead of one that won’t change anyone’s mind or convince anyone.

Random nonsense at @Baroque97

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Feb 25, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

That doesn't make sense

Because that is exactly what he’s doing. He is wasting his breath saying he never took these things outside of the court room. So I simply question, if you’re willing to say it outside of the court room why not in the court room?

Let’s just say this was Barry’s lawyers or A Rod’s lawyers and him using this kind of rhetoric in the court room, and then they go outside of the court room and strongly deny ever using anything. Wouldn’t we all be judging it differently if it were one of them?

by JWurm on Feb 25, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Because the courtroom is different, I guess.

It would come around to the test anyway. If he argued he didn’t take anything, the positive test would be brought up, and he’d have to argue why it wouldn’t apply. Why not just jump ahead and dismiss the test in the first place?

There isn’t any way to prove that he wasn’t taking PEDs at the time short of going back in time and taking another test. any test now would just reflect his current hormonal levels and wouldn’t apply to back then.

The testing program is pretty stupid, anyway. Barry Bonds wasn’t caught by testing but by documents. The testing program is more a way for MLB to look like it is doing something. Once genetic enhancement becomes more common it won’t matter anyway. Current methods of performance enhancement will look unbelievably primitive in another decade or thereabouts.

Random nonsense at @Baroque97

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Feb 25, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

We can both agree on that

The testing is a joke.

And that’s a good point about current methods of performance enhancement will look primitive. I think its already starting. Look at the operations people like Bartolo Colon and Kobe Bryant are getting. In a few years we’re going to be talking about a whole other level of performance enhancement.

by JWurm on Feb 25, 2012 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

what I wonder about that

Is if it will be even more common and accepted. Right now the arguments heard are about “the integrity of the sport” which is nebulous and vague, and “the health of the players” which is a definite concern. If one player can gain an advantage over another but only by doing something that will harm his long-term health in ways yet to be determined (risks of knee surgery at a young age, etc. are known and they are aware of them, for example) that is a legitimate argument.

What if enhancement gets to the point where anyone can use it without long-term negative health consequences? Heck, college students use medications to help them focus and do well on exams instead of just getting a lower score because of anxiety, and that is a kind of performance enhancement. We allow athletes who otherwise wouldn’t be able to see that well to get eye surgery, and that is a type of performance enhancement, also not without risks.

If there isn’t a negative consequence so there is no reason NOT to use an enhancement device/drug/technique, then I imagine it would be more like the training regimens and diets that athletes go through now. An athlete who trains harder has an enhanced performance over one who doesn’t, but no one thinks of it as something that should be forbidden because it is just part of the job and won’t as far as we know lead to negative health later on in life, so if an athlete doesn’t train he isn’t seen as “not cheating” but a lazy slacker. If there is a way to enhance performance safely so there would be no trade-off later in life beyond the normal aches and pains that result after a physical career is over, I think the player safety argument would evaporate.

The only thing left would be a nebulous “competition” argument, and that I think is too vague and dependent on culture and history of the time to hold any water, either. The original arguments in favor of “amateurism” were, after all, a way to keep out the lower classes who couldn’t afford to pursue sports for fun because they needed money and didn’t get it from their family like the rich did.

Regardless, I think that individual fans will come to terms with their own concept of being a sports fan. I have my suspicions about some athletes, and have decided that I am not going to let it bother me because I enjoy watching them play anyway, and if PEDs get me a few more years watching them, I am okay with that. #shrug

Random nonsense at @Baroque97

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Feb 25, 2012 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

oops

Sorry for the tl;dr comment. #hangshead

Random nonsense at @Baroque97

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Feb 25, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

That's very interesting

And I think we’ll see this coming to a head soon.

I have my suspicions about some athletes, and have decided that I am not going to let it bother me because I enjoy watching them play anyway, and if PEDs get me a few more years watching them, I am okay with that. #shrug

And I couldn’t agree more there.

by JWurm on Feb 25, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Okay, one more comment from the lab person here... :)

If needing to hold samples for a few days before shipping (assuming it is within the holding time of the test – some of the testing I deal with has holding times anywhere from 30 hours to 14 days) there is an easy way to get around it.

Any collector who collects on weekends needs a refrigerator in his home or a workplace with a secure lock on it and a key that only he has access to. It also should be equipped with a certified accurate thermometer (temperature loggers are even better, especially if they wirelessly record the data and send to a computer). That way if a sample cannot be shipped right away, he can lock it away secure from interference and can verify that no one else had contact with it, and if there is any question of storage conditions he can present the data showing the temperature was within 1 – 4 C the entire time it was in the secure refrigerator (or whatever the temperature storage requirements are).

If the MLB is going to do this thing, they need to have someone trained in laboratory data quality assessment and quality control go through their procedures with a fine-tooth comb and put everything in proper order.

(I am assuming the labs where the samples are actually tested are properly audited and regularly inspected, and the methods used are tested for false positive and false negative results instead of just assuming they are okay. Might be a stretch, but I know medical labs are audited regularly. Not as likely with purely analytical labs, though.)

Random nonsense at @Baroque97

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Feb 25, 2012 9:59 AM EST reply actions  

and yes...

I did just go through a laboratory audit and am now addressing the post-inspection report from my certifying agency. How did you guess? :)

Random nonsense at @Baroque97

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Feb 25, 2012 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I am also curious

As to if the testing done has ever really been verified rigorously because normal human testosterone levels vary so much from one man to the next – even during the time of day it varies. It seems crazy to think, but for example a lot of forensic testing has never been adequately verified that way. DNA testing has, but that is because it was developed thoroughly in research labs first, and only after all the permutations were explored and interferences hunted down was it released to the wild. Commonly used things like ballistics are based largely on assumptions, some of which haven’t been tested as rigorously.

Interesting stuff. (To a lab rat nerd, anyway.)

Random nonsense at @Baroque97

"It is a mistake to try to look too far ahead. The chain of destiny can only be grasped one link at a time." --Sir Winston Churchill (1874 – 1965)

by Baroque on Feb 25, 2012 10:04 AM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Wake-forest-logo_small
Is Austin Jackson a top-five center fielder?

Recent FanPosts

Small
Is Prince Fielder earning his keep?
Small
Reading the Detroit News comments section on Tigers stories
Small
All-Time Tigers Team
Small
A Sunday with Dan and Jim
Small
2012 Detroit Tigers Draft Question
Amrita_rao_small
Elvis Andrus and Jurickson Profar
Img_1374_small
Scary moment for ex-Tiger Will Rhymes
Small
Austin Jackson: A mid-May appreciation
Tigers_logo_small
Advice on tickets, pre-game

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Quick Rules

Do:

  • Treat others like you'd like to be treated.
  • Stick to the topic being discussed.
  • Make arguments based on facts, not emotion.
Don't:
  • Confuse BYB with talk radio, your blog or your social networking web site of choice. We're a baseball community.
  • Feed the trolls.

Commenting Code of Conduct


Managing Editor

Dsc0178-l_small Kurt Mensching

Deputy Editors

Meatcomputer-1_small BigAl

Sparky_anderson_wall_small Rob Rogacki

5532934019_b5fa57ae98_small allikazoo

Contributors

Good_to_great_leadership_image1-262x300_1__small Tigerdog1

Suss_small Matt Sussman

6m2bts_small Melissa Heyboer

Moderators

Be050826_small NCDee

Sifl_and_olly_small 13194013